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Offline 2Vermont

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Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
« Reply #60 on: February 10, 2019, 09:35:42 AM »
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  • And exactly ZERO mothers subject their children to abortion because they don't want their child to become Christian ... for all they'd have to do is to raise them to think otherwise and to reject Christianity.  So on all fronts applying BoB to aborted babies is an epic fail, an exercise in emotion-based pseudo-theology ... from where all anti-EENS thinking originates.
    Agreed.  

    (1)The only reason why abortionists kill the babies is because the MOTHERS wish it. And none of these mothers are killing their babies because they hate Christ or the Catholic Faith.

    (2)  This NEED to believe that at least some of these aborted babies might be in Heaven (despite that belief going against hundreds of years of Catholic teaching) is based on emotion.  It's no different than thinking one's non-Catholic mother, sister, etc might be in Heaven because of Baptism of Desire...even though they never exhibited any interest in being Catholic while alive.
    "For there is not any thing secret that shall not be made manifest, nor hidden, that shall not be known and come abroad."- Luke 8:17

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #61 on: February 10, 2019, 02:25:36 PM »
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  • However it was done for the Holy Innocents.

    For the 58th time, no it was not.  And, secondly, the Holy Innocents were killed on account of Our Lord.  You've been able to address neither one of these because you've already made up your mind that you would like it that aborted babies are in heaven.  

    Unfortunately, due to the decay of today's society, the vast majority of those aborted babies would have ended up in hell, had they been able to live out their lives.  So even that is an act of God's mercy, that they instead end up in a place of perfect natural happiness for all eternity.  Think about the happiest you could ever imagine yourself in this life, without any pain or suffering or illness or fatigue or sadness, and that's what they get to enjoy for eternity, by God's mercy.


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #62 on: February 10, 2019, 03:16:08 PM »
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  • Also, the Church has never listed all the infants who were killed by Herod.  We don’t know which ones the Church declares as “Holy Innocent” or martyr.  She has never said that 100% of them went to heaven.  She only tells us to pray to those that WERE martyrs.  Even if a gentile child died and went to Limbo, they could still be called a “holy innocent” since they aren’t in hell.  The Church has never declared they are all in heaven; this is St Robert’s opinion only.  

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #63 on: February 10, 2019, 04:28:06 PM »
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  • You've been able to address neither one of these because you've already made up your mind that you would like it that aborted babies are in heaven.  
    That's almost word for word what I told him at the beginning of the other thread when he started this idea of his. The man is a perfect example of what is described in 2Tim4:

    "For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables". (2Tim4)



    Dogma - “Regarding children, indeed, because of danger of death, which can often take place, since no help can be brought to them by another remedy than through the sacrament of baptism, through which they are snatched from the domination of the devil and adopted among the sons of God, [the sacrosanct Roman Church] advises that holy baptism ought not to be deferred for forty or eighty days, ... but it should be conferred as soon as it can be done conveniently…” -Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Cantate Domino, February 4, 1442

    "Likewise, whoever says that those children who depart out of this life without partaking of that Sacrament (Baptism) are alive in Christ, certainly contradicts the apostolic declaration and condemns the universal Church, in which it is the practice to lose no time and run in haste to administer Baptism to infant children, because it is believed as an indubitable truth, that otherwise they cannot be made alive in Christ." -Saint Augustine, Father and Doctor of the Church, Epistle 167, AD 415


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline ihsv

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #64 on: February 10, 2019, 05:11:35 PM »
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  • Nonsensical argument. I agree that abortion isn't martyrdom, but your argument here(that we should let martyrdom continue because the martyrs are saved) just doesn't stand. Just because we are to embrace martyrdom rather than denounce the faith, does NOT mean we are to let our fellow Catholics be martyred. If Catholics were being into the Colosseum to be eaten by Lions if they did not renounce, they would be saved. So would we just let the practice continue and let our brothers and sister in Christ be massacred? Obviously not. Many wars were fought for the explicit purpose of saving people from martyrdom. To argue that if the unborn babies were martyred and saved, that we should not stop abortion, is the same as arguing that if Catholic pilgrims being murdered in the Holy Land were saved that the Crusaders shouldn't have fought to secure them safe passage. The Crusaders didn't decide that pilgrims being slaughtered lost its horror because those pilgrims went to Heaven, they didn't decide to just sit back and leave it happen. They still recognised it as a horrible crime demanding vengeance. So even if abortion was martyrdom(which I don't believe it is), we would still fight just as hard to stop it.

    You missed the point, and you are reading far more into my words than what was actually said.  I did not make the argument that we should "let martyrdom continue because the martyrs are saved"

    Geremia is conflating abortion with martyrdom.  We have pro-life rallies, giant marches down the streets of Washington DC, protests, etc., to resist abortion.  

    During the Roman persecutions, they didn't have pro-Christian rallies, giant marches down the streets of Rome, protests, etc., to resist the martyrdom of Catholics.  

    Yes, the early Catholics "resisted" in the sense of keeping their activities clandestine, but there was no active "resistance", such as exists now with the pro-life movement.

    "And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28

    No one is celebrating or excusing the sin of murdering Catholics or murdering babies.  But if aborted babies are martyrs, as Geremia argues, we ought to celebrate their martyrdom as the Church celebrates the death of the early martyrs.  True martyrdom is a glorious, joyful thing.  Even in the liturgy for martyrs there are no tears.

    Quote from: Introit for the Mass
    In Thy strength, O Lord, the just man shall joy: and in Thy salvation he shall rejoice exceedingly: Thou hast given him his heart's desire. -- (Ps. 20. 4). For Thou hast prevented him with blessings of sweetness: Thou hast set on his head a crown of precious stones. V.: Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. In Thy strength, O Lord, the just man shall joy: and in Thy salvation he shall rejoice exceedingly: Thou hast given him his heart's desire.

    Geremia's emotional, theologically bankrupt view takes the sting out of abortion.  If aborted babies get "baptism of blood" and go straight to heaven, then abortion does indeed lose its horror, for the infant has "set on his head a crown of precious stones".

    Confiteor unum baptisma in remissionem peccatorum. - Nicene Creed


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #65 on: February 10, 2019, 06:42:12 PM »
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  • Cdl. Cajetan, O.P., in his commentary on III q. 68 a. 11 ("Whether a child can be baptized while yet in its mother's womb?") is even more explicit, saying that even in utero infants can be martyrs like the Holy Innocents:

    I am pretty sure that Cajetan's general opinions on the fate of unbaptized babies are heterodox, anyway. It seems that he also shared the error of Calvin, that of believing that unbaptized babies may be saved through Baptism of Desire. This "desire" being that of the parents.  I have not read the original writing but arch-heretic Calvin also taught that infants born of parents who have the Faith are saved, even though they should die without Baptism.

    Fortunately, Cajetan's error on infantile Baptism of Desire "was ordered expunged from his works by the Pope. In his decree against the Synod of Pistoia in 1794, Pius VI alludes to “that place of the lower regions which the faithful generally designate as the limbo of the children” in which the souls of those dying “with the sole guilt of original sin”. Nevertheless, the view which the Holy Father adopts in no way holds either for a parental or infantile ‘baptism of desire’ nor for the rewards of the Beatific Vision for unbaptized souls (Denzinger 1526). This limbo of the children amounts to merely the ‘highest place’ in the abode of Hell, as explained by St. Vincent Ferrer in his sermon preached on the Octave of the Epiphany.

    https://catholicism.org/unbaptized-infants-malone.html
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #66 on: February 10, 2019, 06:59:58 PM »
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  • The mentioned error of Pistoia that His Holiness Pius VI condemned reads as follows:

    Quote
    The Punishment of Those Who Die with Original Sin Only

    [Baptism, sec. 3]

    Danzinger 1526 26. The doctrine which rejects as a Pelagian fable, that place of the lower regions (which the faithful generally designate by the name of the limbo of children) in which the souls of those departing with the sole guilt of original sin are punished with the punishment of the condemned, exclusive of the punishment of fire, just as if, by this very fact, that these who remove the punishment of fire introduced that middle place and state free of guilt and of punishment between the kingdom of God and eternal damnation, such as that about which the Pelagians idly talk,--false, rash, injurious to Catholic schools.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #67 on: February 10, 2019, 07:51:32 PM »
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  • I read the Latin text at the link to Cajetan.

    He believed that infants could benefit from BoB ... but only if they were killed "propter Christum" (on account of Christ).  He again used the Holy Innocents example, but failed to take into account that this was in the Old Dispensation.

    Secondly, he believed in a vicarious Baptism of Desire, whereby if the parents desired to baptize the child, the child could benefit from desire.  This is what was forced to be expunged from his writings.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #68 on: February 10, 2019, 07:55:34 PM »
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  • What's interesting also is that St. Augustine cited St. Cyprian as the originator of the BoB concept, and mentioned that St. Cyprian had argued from the example of the Good Thief.  That's a double fail.  Not only did the Good Thief die in the old dispensation, but he was not killed on account of Christ, but for his crimes.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Aborted babies & baptism of blood
    « Reply #69 on: February 10, 2019, 09:27:39 PM »
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  • Right.  The good thief was saved for 2 reasons, both of which were necessary under the Old Law (and still are, under the New...but the New has additional requirements) - Faith and contrition.  St Dismas recognized Christ as his redeemer and confessed his sins with a pure act of love.  Christ acknowledged his Faith and personally forgave him his sins.  St Dismas also accepted his sufferings as just on account of his crimes.  This is exactly how the Jews were saved in the Old Testament and also how we are in the new, except we have Faith in Christ through His Church and we confess our sins to Christ through a priest.  

    Hard to compare St Dismas to any other saint (Old/new) since he’s one of the few choice persons to actually talk to Christ when he was on earth.  

     

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