Hey, tard, try actually reading what Father Feeney said before running your (virutal) mouth and making an idiot out of yourself ... which you are becoming known for.

Father Feeney holds that God will never allow the justified to die without the Sacrament.  That justification and salvation (the perseverence in justification) are two completely distinct graces is taught dogmatically by Trent.  No one will be allowed to persevere to the end in justification and then die in that state without having received the Sacrament of Baptism.

Yes, the good Fr. Feeney is quite clear:

"There is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the skeptics. The clear truths of salvation, I am preaching to you."


The only rebuttal an SJ could possibly return with to argue the above truth, is one that first must deny, then wholly reject  Divine Providence altogether - all the while insisting he is doing no such thing.

You've repeatedly said that the faith received by hearing is a grace.  I'm arguing that St Paul is talking about the truth of the Faith, not a grace.

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I am talking about Trent directly, which quotes St. Paul.  St. Paul's significance to the question is indirect. 
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In case you really think that I am saying grace is received aurally as though it were a soundwave, I am not:
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Now they are disposed to that justice [can. 7 and 9] when, aroused and assisted by divine grace, receiving faith "by hearing" [Rom. 10:17], they are freely moved toward God, believing that to be true which has been divinely revealed and promised

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I don't think it's particularly difficult to see what's happening here.  Supernatural faith is a grace, the object of which is Divine Revelation, something which must be known in the intellect (i.e. "by hearing"-- not in the strictest literal sense, given that deaf people can be saved, but in the broader intellectual sense of apprehension and certitude).  That's what I believe, and that's, so far as I can tell, the teaching of the Catholic Church.  But all I'm interested in right now is Struthio's claim that faith comes only (first) from baptism.  I haven't (and won't) move beyond that point until we figure it out.  Struthio seems pretty intelligent-- he's a better Latinist than I, tracked down Benedict XIV's Institutiones Ecclesiasticae for me, and I'd like to work this out with him.  I think it's important that we acknowledge what Trent actually says regarding the genesis of faith for the catechumen.  Then we can move on to more "dramatic" matters.  But not with a faulty premise that faith only first comes from baptism.

I saw it, Tradhican.  I hoped that my reticence to your question would serve as an encouragement for you to read what I'd posted rather than dichotomously jumping leagues ahead.  I'm not actually talking about baptism of desire or implicit faith, not yet, anyways (although BoD is of course relevant and the impetus for the discussion). Right now we're answering this question: "how does one 'get' faith in the first place?"  The impetus being Struthio's claim that one only first receives faith through baptism.

ETA (general comment): but if it helps everybody just settle down and actually respond to what I've said instead of jumping ahead, misconstruing it, looking for enemies, calling names, or otherwise just being committed to cantankerous bloviating, I am not arguing, nor do I intend to argue, anything at all that diminishes the indispensable (and I use that word in its strictest, metaphysical sense) role that grace, faith, hope, and charity play in justification.  

Now they are disposed to that justice [can. 7 and 9] when, aroused and assisted by divine grace, receiving (the TRUTHS of the) faith "by hearing" [Rom. 10:17], they are freely moved toward God, believing that to be true which has been divinely revealed and promised.


Does this added phrase clear it up for you?

You are misunderstanding what St Paul is saying.  You need to read the ENTIRE chapter of Romans 10.  When St Paul says that "faith cometh by hearing", he's talking about the truths of the faith, not the virtue of faith.  No one can receive a virtue simply by hearing about it.  The truths of our faith are received by hearing of them, then we receive actual graces to accept the truth.  When we accept the truth, then we are given MORE actual graces to not only accept the truth but ACT on the truth, which requires one to JOIN the Church/Faith.  When one decides to accept and join the Church, THEN one is said to have an IMPLICIT desire for baptism, even if one has not EXPLICITLY asked for baptism.

In my opinion, this is the only IMPLICIT desire that St Alphonsus would approve of.  The IMPLICIT desire by someone who is UNAWARE of baptism/Church is a contradiction.

You are right.

Now, they [the adults] are disposed to that justice when, aroused and aided by divine grace, receiving faith by hearing,[21] they are moved freely toward God, believing to be true what has been divinely revealed and promised, especially that the sinner is justified by God by his grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus;[22] and when, understanding themselves to be sinners, they, by turning themselves from the fear of divine justice, by which they are salutarily aroused, to consider the mercy of God, are raised to hope, trusting that God will be propitious to them for Christ's sake; and they begin to love Him as the fountain of all justice, and on that account are moved against sin by a certain hatred and detestation, that is, by that repentance that must be performed before baptism;[23] finally, when they resolve to receive baptism, to begin a new life and to keep the commandments of God

This "faith" and "hope" spoken here in "Trent's manner of preparation" ARE NOT the supernatural theological virtues of Faith and Hope infused in Baptism, which happens after.

You are right.

This "faith" and "hope" spoken here in Trent's preparation of Justification ARE NOT the supernatural theological virtues of Faith and Hope infused in Baptism, which happens after.

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What is a better definition of supernatural faith than what Trent describes: being moved by Grace, believing all which God has revealed to be true?  Not a rhetorical question, perhaps you could find some solemn teaching instance where supernatural faith is described differently than as a grace whereby a person believes in Divine Revelation. 

That "being moved by grace" part refers to the fact that even the inclination to begin the preparation for Baptism is an unmerited grace from God.  This is a reference to the actual grace that prompts the person to begin the movement towards justification.

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I've never heard of actual grace described as a grace whereby a person is freely moved to believe Divine Revelation.  If that is what actual grace is, what is the definition of supernatural faith?