Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 6056 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Last Tradhican

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2601
  • Reputation: +1415/-750
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 09:01:25 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Look at the Feeneyites, all frothy and foaming.

    This IS good fun!
    :popcorn:
    Where does one come to see frothing and foaming from the dogmas that I posted? All I see in that response is the writer discrediting himself online. He would be wise to think before he post "replies" like that.
    It makes me wonder just how old the person on the other side is. 
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Struthio

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 373
    • Reputation: +87/-57
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #31 on: August 20, 2018, 09:04:36 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • The relevant question is how did Baptism of Desire get extended to followers of false religions? You won't find St. Alphonsus teaching that. His interpretation of "de fide" doesn't include Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc.

    The relevant question is: Why would a Catholic quote Fathers, Doctors, or generally Saints like St. Alphonsus or St. Thomas Aquinas to learn about the true Faith, while the competent authority on Faith is the infallible Magisterium of the Church?

    The ecumenical Vatican Council makes all teachings of the ecumenical Council of Trent with respect to justification part of the Profession of the Faith of the holy Roman Church (see here). The ecumenical Council of Trent does not teach any "Baptism of Desire" (not even for a catechumen) and strictly forbids to teach, preach, or believe any such thing (see here).

    The ecumenical Council of Trent teaches (source see here):

    Quote
    Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one’s proper disposition and co-operation. For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circumcision, availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen’s beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.

    There is no "Baptism of Desire", not even for catechumens. A catechumen cannot have the Faith. The Faith is infused when receiving the sacrament of baptism.

    Noone has "supernatural Faith" or Faith at all, if Faith hasn't been infused when receiving the sacrament of baptism. That's what the competent authority on Faith, the infallible Magisterium of the Church, teaches. That's what the Council of Trent teaches, and what the Vatican Council declares to be part of the Profession of Faith of the holy Roman Church (see here).

    Please, stop quoting fallible Fathers, Doctors, and Saints, on questions which have been infallibly answered, defined, and decreed by the infallible extraordinary Magisterium of the Church of our Lord.

    I prefer to confess the Profession of Faith of the holy Roman Church here and now, and I prefer to die confessing the Profession of Faith of the holy Roman Church.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3734
    • Reputation: +2326/-1084
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #32 on: August 20, 2018, 09:45:14 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • But, but, but St Alphonsus said...

    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3420
    • Reputation: +4060/-227
    • Gender: Male
      • The Trad Forum
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #33 on: August 20, 2018, 10:01:19 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Well Trent says faith comes from hearing. So even if you want to throw out the ordinary magisterium, Struthio, Trent isn't going to get you to BoD denial. Certainly not the way you just described, at any rate.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline Struthio

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 373
    • Reputation: +87/-57
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #34 on: August 20, 2018, 10:15:01 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well Trent says faith comes from hearing. So even if you want to throw out the ordinary magisterium, Struthio, Trent isn't going to get you to BoD denial. Certainly not the way you just described, at any rate.

    Trent says that the catechumen asks for the faith before being baptized (see the quote in my post above, and compare the liturgical books). Then, Trent says, the faith is infused when the catechumen receives the sacrament of baptism (see the quote in my post above).

    I do not throw out any ordinary magisterium. There is no ordinary magisterium contradicting the infallible extraordinary Magisterium of the ecumenical councils. You should be aware that there have been, and are bad (and even faked or modified) catechisms, diverse ignorant theologians and clerics contradicting the infallible extraordinary Magisterium. The Council of Trent advises you to use its decrees to detect and reject them (I can look up the corresponding quote from the Council of Trent in case you're not aware of it).
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Pax Vobis

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3734
    • Reputation: +2326/-1084
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #35 on: August 20, 2018, 10:18:50 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1

  • Quote
    Well Trent says faith comes from hearing. 
    What a Protestant sounding attempt at a rebuttal.  Well done, brother Mith!  

    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3745
    • Reputation: +3638/-1087
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #36 on: August 20, 2018, 10:19:11 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Where does one come to see frothing and foaming from the dogmas that I posted? All I see in that response is the writer discrediting himself online. He would be wise to think before he post "replies" like that.
    It makes me wonder just how old the person on the other side is.

    More froth and foam.
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3745
    • Reputation: +3638/-1087
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #37 on: August 20, 2018, 10:21:00 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • Well Trent says faith comes from hearing. So even if you want to throw out the ordinary magisterium, Struthio, Trent isn't going to get you to BoD denial. Certainly not the way you just described, at any rate.

    Oh-oh...

    :popcorn:
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-



    Offline SeanJohnson

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3745
    • Reputation: +3638/-1087
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #38 on: August 20, 2018, 10:23:17 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • What a Protestant sounding attempt at a rebuttal.  Well done, brother Mith!  

    The Feeneyites going after the sedevacantists.

    Now I can guarantee that this thread will last at least 250 pages, covering everything from hard boiled eggs to why Prots like McDonalds.

    :popcorn:
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3420
    • Reputation: +4060/-227
    • Gender: Male
      • The Trad Forum
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #39 on: August 20, 2018, 10:23:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well let's take one thing at a time. I'm happy to debate the point directly from Trent, so long as I'm also on record noting that the real problem here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic learning viz. disregard for the ordinary magisterium.

    When describing the justification of the sinner before baptism, Trent teaches (contra the Protestants) the initiatory role that faith plays in that process. It says faith comes from hearing, not baptism. Denz 798

    "Now they are disposed to that justice [can. 7 and 9] when, aroused and assisted by divine grace, receiving faith "by hearing" [Rom. 10:17], they are freely moved toward God, believing that to be true which has been divinely revealed and promised..."
    .
    It says the virtues are infused at baptism too, of course, which only makes sense given the (again, contra Protestants) *continued* justification of souls.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline Struthio

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 373
    • Reputation: +87/-57
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #40 on: August 20, 2018, 10:37:56 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well let's take one thing at a time. I'm happy to debate the point directly from Trent, so long as I'm also on record noting that the real problem here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic learning viz. disregard for the ordinary magisterium.

    When describing the justification of the sinner before baptism, Trent teaches (contra the Protestants) the initiatory role that faith plays in that process. It says faith comes from hearing, not baptism. Denz 798

    "Now they are disposed to that justice [can. 7 and 9] when, aroused and assisted by divine grace, receiving faith "by hearing" [Rom. 10:17], they are freely moved toward God, believing that to be true which has been divinely revealed and promised..."
    .
    It says the virtues are infused at baptism too, of course, which only makes sense given the (again, contra Protestants) *continued* justification of souls.

    Yes, Trent teaches that you have to first hear and learn the content of the faith. That alone won't happen without the grace of God (which is not yet sanctifying grace). Then you have to assent. Then you beg for baptism. When receiving the sacrament, the faith is infused (as well as hope and charity), sanctifying grace is then infused without which you are not justified.

    (This irrelevant short description cannot replace the relevant teaching of the Council of Trent in Cum hoc tempore, the decree on justification linked in my first post on page #1 of this thread. The length of the decree is a few screen pages. Anyone should read and study it from the first to the last line. Then there are some helpful Canons.)
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3420
    • Reputation: +4060/-227
    • Gender: Male
      • The Trad Forum
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #41 on: August 20, 2018, 10:47:05 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • But that isn't what it says, Struthio. It says they receive faith by hearing. It describes that faith as a *grace* whereby man believes all that God has revealed. It then describes the acquisition of the other two virtues (hope and charity). All before baptism.
    More Catholic Discussion: http://thetradforum.com

    Offline Struthio

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 373
    • Reputation: +87/-57
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #42 on: August 20, 2018, 10:50:33 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • But that isn't what it says, Struthio. It says they receive faith by hearing. It describes that faith as a *grace* whereby man believes all that God has revealed. It then describes the acquisition of the other two virtues (hope and charity).

    It says that "they are disposed to that justice". You need to be disposed to receive justification by the sacrament of baptism. Hearing does not transmit the faith, hearing disposes to be prepared to receive the faith.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Neil Obstat

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 18151
    • Reputation: +8243/-631
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #43 on: August 21, 2018, 12:26:36 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It says that "they are disposed to that justice". You need to be disposed to receive justification by the sacrament of baptism. Hearing does not transmit the faith, hearing disposes to be prepared to receive the faith.
    .
    It seems to me that there are some who, to defend BoD as being "de fide" or even "ex cathedra" (seriously!), are coming from a place of ignorance regarding the nature of grace. They confuse actual grace with sanctifying grace, and I have met a few who claim there is no distinction, that all graces are the same; such that pagans ignorantly worshiping at a pagan shrine are thereby recipients of the same sanctifying grace (and therefore justification and salvation without need for Baptism) that the Apostles received on Pentecost Sunday.
    .
    You can't make this stuff up!
    .
    When did the Apostles teach that receiving the Holy Ghost on Pentecost made them all exempt from having to be baptized? 
    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Last Tradhican

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2601
    • Reputation: +1415/-750
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #44 on: August 21, 2018, 05:49:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well let's take one thing at a time. I'm happy to debate the point directly from Trent, so long as I'm also on record noting that the real problem here is a fundamental misunderstanding of Catholic learning viz. disregard for the ordinary magisterium.
    Before anything, what exactly are you saying is  part of the ordinary magisterium, what precisely are you talking about and defending,  explicit baptism of desire of the catechumen or salvation by implicit faith (salvation by belief  in a God that rewards)?

    Let's be precise before we discuss anything having to do with this "greased pig" (for BOD can mean anything from explicit baptism of desire of the catechumen to salvation in any religion or no religion) or we'll never get ahold of it (this thread will go forever).
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16