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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"  (Read 11185 times)

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Offline Struthio

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #210 on: August 22, 2018, 05:53:46 PM »
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  • Quote from: Karl Rahner, Was ist Häresie, 1961
    Noch ein Franz Xaver hat den Japanern, die er bekehren wollte, gesagt, daß selbstverstandlich alle ihre Vorfahren zur Hölle verdammt sind. Und auch ein Augustinus hätte nach seiner Theologie so antworten müssen, und diese Haltung gehörte doch bis fast auf unsere Tage zum Grundpathos der christlichen Missionsarbeit unter den Heiden.

    Quote from: Clumsy translation of Karl Rahner, What is heresy, 1961
    Francis Xavier would tell the Japanese, which  he wanted to convert, that their ancestors as a matter of course are damned to hell. Also, an Augustine, following his theology, would have had to answer in the same manner, and this attitude belonged up to almost our days to the basic pathos of christian missionary work in midst of the pagans.
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #211 on: August 22, 2018, 06:09:10 PM »
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  • Quote from: Joseph Ratzinger, Interview, 2016
    Se è vero che i grandi missionari del XVI secolo erano ancora convinti che chi non è battezzato è per sempre perduto, e ciò spiega il loro impegno missionario, nella Chiesa cattolica dopo il Concilio Vaticano II tale convinzione è stata definitivamente abbandonata. Da ciò derivò una doppia profonda crisi. [...]

    Se c’è chi si può salvare anche in altre maniere non è più evidente, alla fin fine, perché il cristiano stesso sia legato alle esigenze dalla fede cristiana e alla sua morale. [...]


    Quote from: Clumsy translation
    While it is true that the great missionaries of the sixteenth century still were convinced, that those, who are not baptized, are lost forever, and that this explains their missionary commitment, this conviction was finally abandoned in the Catholic Church after the Second Vatican Council. From this a deep double crisis arose. [...]

    If one can be saved in a different way, it is no more evident, why a Christian should be bound to the necessity of the christian faith and morals. [...]

    Intervista al papa emerito Joseph Ratzinger-Benedetto XVI
    Men are not bound, or able to read hearts; but when they see that someone is a heretic by his external works, they judge him to be a heretic pure and simple ... Jerome points this out. (St. Robert Bellarmine)


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #212 on: August 22, 2018, 07:12:42 PM »
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  • Trent does not distinguish between explicit or implicit baptism of desire.

    That is because Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #213 on: August 22, 2018, 07:33:44 PM »
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  • My response that that implicit baptism pertains to souls who never had a chance to accept or deny the faith was in response to the assertion that such had denied the faith.

    In other words, they are no different from the ones described as "anonymous Christians" by chief VII theologian, Rahner:

    Quote
    The pagan after the beginning of the Christian mission, who lives in the state of Christ’s grace through faith, hope and love, yet who has no explicit knowledge of the fact that his life is orientated in grace-given salvation to Christ.

    And notice it is the "implicit" nature of these acts of Faith, Hope, and Charity, which distinguishes “anonymous Christians” from the visible Christians VII Council was referring to in Lumen Gentium.

    So not only the OP thinks that a single belief in just one, really any one, article of the true religion, suffices for salvation, but this belief can also be "implicit" so at the end, anyone in a false religion can be said to be an invisible Catholic, belonging to an invisible Church.  





    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #214 on: August 23, 2018, 08:27:25 AM »
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  • That is because Trent does not teach Baptism of Desire.

    Even if one were to argue that Trent allows for a Baptism of Desire, it quite clearly only pertains to those who have the dispositions for Baptism as described in the Treatise on Justification, i.e. basically to catechumens only.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #215 on: August 23, 2018, 08:30:55 AM »
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  • Either I and the entire universal ordinary magisterium since Trent have a better grasp of what that council really taught ...

    Listen, you ignorant and bad-willed baboon.  No Magisterial docuмent and no Doctor of the Church has ever taught that Baptism of Desire could be had by anyone without explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, i.e. that it could apply to infidels.  But you deliberately conflate the narrow understanding of "implicit" Baptism of Desire with the implicit faith of infidels.  You have no support for your heresies in any official Catholic teaching.  This novelty that infidels could be saved was concocted by a couple of Jesuits around the year 1600 ... contrary to 1600 years of prior Catholic teaching and the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers that explicit knowledge of and belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ was necessary for salvation.

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #216 on: August 23, 2018, 08:31:09 AM »
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  • Salvation without explicit belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity are declared  dogmatically impossible 

    by the Church:


    POPE EUGENE IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:

    Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.”




    Athanasian Creed

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    42. and shall give account of their own works.

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.



    And confirmed by St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri

    St. Alphonsus, quoted in Fr. Michael Muller’s The Catholic Dogma: “‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’ (First Command. No. 8.).”



    St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)



    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)


    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #217 on: August 23, 2018, 09:03:14 AM »
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  • This is what Catholics believe:

    Nothing is impossible with God, absolutely nothing. If a person desires to be baptized, to be Catholic, then our faith teaches us  Almighty God will provide the time to do it, the water for doing it and the minister for doing it - just the same as He has done billions of times for each and every individual who has ever been, and will always do for all who ever will be baptized. If He does not provide these for the person, then no person ever has or ever will be baptized. Again, this is what Catholics believe.

    If we were to know of an infant, or an adult for that matter, who died shortly after being baptized, we are awestruck and we give glory to Almighty God for giving so great a grace to that person, and all glorify God in His greatness and providence which WE KNOW He surely bestowed upon that person.

    How is God glorified when people are able to save themself with a last second good intention, most often about a God and faith and sacrament they never knew and didn't want to know? The BODers say, contrary to Scripture and the faith, that God welcomes into heaven those people He never knew and who never knew Him.          

    The whole idea is a blatant and awful belittling, and does a terrible injustice to God in His Divine Providence.  


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #218 on: August 23, 2018, 10:34:26 AM »
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  • Listen, you ignorant and bad-willed baboon.  No Magisterial docuмent and no Doctor of the Church has ever taught that Baptism of Desire could be had by anyone without explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, i.e. that it could apply to infidels.  But you deliberately conflate the narrow understanding of "implicit" Baptism of Desire with the implicit faith of infidels.  You have no support for your heresies in any official Catholic teaching.  This novelty that infidels could be saved was concocted by a couple of Jesuits around the year 1600 ... contrary to 1600 years of prior Catholic teaching and the unanimous consensus of the Church Fathers that explicit knowledge of and belief in Our Lord Jesus Christ was necessary for salvation.
    Notice that our postings about the same exact subject, spring out of nowhere, and are 24 seconds apart. Your posting was first, and is simple and to the point, while mine contains all the supporting details which completes your posting. We were writing those quotes with no cooperation, and they are 24 seconds apart in posting. Pretty amazing. Why did we write that at that exact moment? It could only be from God.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #219 on: August 23, 2018, 10:53:57 AM »
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  • How much longer until SJ starts a new thread on the same topic, and then eventually quits that thread just like he quit this one?

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #220 on: August 23, 2018, 11:30:36 AM »
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  • Notice that our postings about the same exact subject, spring out of nowhere, and are 24 seconds apart. Your posting was first, and is simple and to the point, while mine contains all the supporting details which completes your posting. We were writing those quotes with no cooperation, and they are 24 seconds apart in posting. Pretty amazing. Why did we write that at that exact moment? It could only be from God.

    Of course, everything is ordered by God's providence.  I think that both of us realized at the exact same time how Johnson conflates the implicit faith of infidels with the implicit desire for Baptism in order to pretend that the Magisterium and Doctors teach this notion.  They do not.  So we both realized we have to flush him out from taking cover behind the Magisterium for his heresies.

    Take ANY of the quotes that BoDers are wont to spam out there in favor of BoD, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them deals with the case of a CATECHUMEN, someone with explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation as taught by the authority of the Church.  Even the 1917 Code of Canon Law refers only to the case of a catechumen (not even a catechumen-like person).  Salvation of infidels is nothing more than a Jesuitical novelty invented around the year 1600 and never taught by the Church or any Doctor of the Church ... but, sadly, not condemned by the Church either (unless you count the teaching of Vatican I which effectively rules this out).  But I believe that God allowed the error to remain uncondemned because it is this error which is providing THE test of faith in this time of crisis.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #221 on: August 23, 2018, 11:33:34 AM »
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  • How much longer until SJ starts a new thread on the same topic, and then eventually quits that thread just like he quit this one?

    LoT used to do the same thing.  He would excoriate "Feeneyites" for rejecting St. Thomas.  Then when you turned the tables on him by pointing out that he rejected St. Thomas by believing in the 2-article-explicit-faith theory, he'd disappear from the thread.  So he would spam BoD quotes out there, trying to make it SEEMS like they supported his own implicit faith theory, which none of them did.  But when you flushed him out from hiding behind these, then he disappeared and started a new thread where he resumed his spamming.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #222 on: August 23, 2018, 11:34:21 AM »
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  • As I said, the VERY SECOND that someone starts applying "Baptism" of Desire to people who are already baptized (e.g. the Orthodox), you know exactly who and what you're dealing with.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #223 on: August 23, 2018, 11:34:41 AM »
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  • Quote
    But I believe that God allowed the error to remain uncondemned because it is this error which is providing THE test of faith in this time of crisis.
    Great point.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #224 on: August 23, 2018, 11:50:33 AM »
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  • Take ANY of the quotes that BoDers are wont to spam out there in favor of BoD, and EVERY SINGLE ONE of them deals with the case of a CATECHUMEN, someone with explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation as taught by the authority of the Church.  Even the 1917 Code of Canon Law refers only to the case of a catechumen (not even a catechumen-like person).  Salvation of infidels is nothing more than a Jesuitical novelty invented around the year 1600 and never taught by the Church or any Doctor of the Church ... but, sadly, not condemned by the Church either (unless you count the teaching of Vatican I which effectively rules this out).  But I believe that God allowed the error to remain uncondemned because it is this error which is providing THE test of faith in this time of crisis.

    In the very same chapter in which Our Lord institutes the Sacrament of Baptism, (Jh 3:5), He says that he who does not believe is judged already. It follows that everyone who does not believe in Christ, with the Faith that the Apostle spoke, this is, "Faith which worketh by charity" is condemned already. Every Jєω, Pagan, Moslem, etc. is judged already if he dies in his incredulity. He shall not come to judgement either particular or general, to be discussed according to his works of mercy done or omitted.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.