Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?" (Read 30704 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #205 on:** August 22, 2018, 05:02:02 PM »

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You have demonstrated repeatedly that you really have no idea what Trent teaches

A non-answer.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #206 on:** August 22, 2018, 05:04:12 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2018, 03:58:28 PM

That implicit baptism of desire is taught in most post-Tridentine catechisms, taught or accepted by all pope’s, saints, and that Council itself (which did not distinguish between explicit and partial mplicit), and contradicted by none, shows it is the Feeneyites, and not I, who are misinterpreting Trent.

I quoted about 20 dogmas and the writer bypasses them all (does an end run) with his persona opinion, never analyzing how his "implicit baptism of desire" fares against all those dogmas.

Add to that the lie that "implicit baptism of desire is taught in most post-Tridentine catechisms, taught or accepted by all pope’s, saints, and that Council". The writer does not even know that what he believes, and teaches here is not implicit baptism of desire but is salvation by implicit faith, which is a novelty and does not require belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity, and is not taught by Trent, or any Saint or Pope ever. He does not know the difference between implicit baptism of desire, which requires a belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity and what he believes which is salvation by implicit faith. The writer is totally winging his every word. The blind leading the blind.

"For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: 4And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. (2Tim4)

I post 20 dogmas (sound Doctrine) and the writer post his erroneous personal opinions.

Stubborn · « **Reply #207 on:** August 22, 2018, 05:08:06 PM »

Quote from: SeanJohnson on August 22, 2018, 03:53:13 PM

Nonsense:

That there is such a thing as invincible ignorance refutes your claim that all those who are outside the visible Church are so by their own will.

Ridiculous. It is only all too easy to prove you are entirely wrong - simply go out and ask the first person you see, it matters not whether they be invincibly ignorant, an altogether sincere non-Catholic or anything in between, and tell them what they MUST do in order to attain salvation. When they tell you they want no part of it, there is the proof you are wrong. Keep asking until you find one who wants to become a member, maybe take out an add or TV commercial - let us know how that goes for you.

Again, if God can arrange for you to be in the Church, by the very same Providence He can arrange for anyone else who desires or is willing to enter it.

This simple truth all BODers wholly reject, and all BODers absolutely have got to reject Divine Providence in this matter, if they are to maintain their error in favor of man saving himself.

In all things God provides for us whatever it might be that we need for us attaining salvation, if we do not obtain what we [desire or] pray for, we must suppose it is not conducive to our salvation, in comparison of which all else is of little moment, so says the Haydock as regards Matthew 7:8 - so the BODers are trying to convince the population that God does not consider the sacrament He personally instituted for no other reason than for our salvation, conducive to our salvation.

Quite amazing when you stop to think about how screwed up the dogmatic BODers are.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #208 on:** August 22, 2018, 05:08:20 PM »

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Trent does not distinguish between explicit or implicit baptism of desire.

The desire can be expressed (explicit) or implied (implicit) to other persons or the Church, but the person is required to DECIDE, to WILL that he receive baptism. The desire for baptism SPECIFICALLY is required. See chapter 6, of session 6.

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Since both were commonly taught both before and after the council, the presumption is that Trent codified both as an article of faith.

If you define implicit as Trent does, then I agree.

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And the presumption is transformed into a certainty by recalling that not only have Doctors of the Church so interpreted that council, but the infallible universal ordinary magisterium has taught thusly without contradiction ever after.

There's plenty of theologians who agree with you, but there's not a consensus, so the universal magisterium is not in play here, thus neither is infallibility.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #209 on:** August 22, 2018, 05:20:51 PM »

I don't see it as so dangerous to the faith if people really only believed in the baptism of desire of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas (STA), however, no one today does restrict it to STA's BOD. In my experience, even those that say they restrict it to STA's BOD, do not really, for you never see them strongly opposing implicit faith'ers as they do with there incesant adamant fight against strict EENSers. In my experience that is because they really do not restrict their belief to STA's BOD, because if they really believed STA's BOD like say St. Alphonsus Ligouri, they would oppose the teaching, like St. Alphonsus Ligouri did.

Here is St. Alphonsus Ligouri in his own words teaching against what everyone today believes, that BOD saves Jews, Mohamedans, all non-Catholics, even the invisible ignorant. I don't see ONE so-called defender of STA's BOD teaching this way, not a ONE!

ST. ALPHONSUS LIGOURI REJECTED IMPLICIT FAITH

St. Alphonsus, quoted in Fr. Michael Muller’s The Catholic Dogma: “‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles - the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons - is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’ (First Command. No. 8.).”

St. Alphonsus: “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church. How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.” (Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219)

St. Alphonsus: “If you are ignorant of the truths of the faith, you are obliged to learn them. Every Christian is bound to learn the Creed, the Our Father, and the Hail Mary under pain of mortal sin. Many have no idea of the Most Holy Trinity, the Incarnation, mortal sin, Judgment, Paradise, Hell, or Eternity; and this deplorable ignorance damns them.” (Michael Malone, The Apostolic Digest, p. 159.)

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Author Topic: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?" (Read 30704 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"

Last Tradhican

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Stubborn

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Pax Vobis

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Last Tradhican

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