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Offline Cantarella

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Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2018, 12:32:47 PM »
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  • .
    Given that the quote is actually from Benedict XIV, the answer would probably be found in his (rather than Pope St. Pius X's) corpus.  The footnote in the encyclical indicates a document shorthanded as Instit. but I'm not sure what document that is, and it could even be a private work of Pope Benedict's since he is largely regarded as one of the best theologian-popes and published many works aside from his pontificate.
    .

    It is Benedict XIV' Constitution, "Etsi Minime".
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #16 on: August 20, 2018, 12:37:42 PM »
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  • I know that in the context of Acerbo Nimis pope St. Pius X is considering primarily the poor state of education among Christians, and the paragraph where he cites Benedict XIV is one where he's just discussed how Christian faithful who had plenty of opportunities to learn, who were not weighed down by the obligations of their state, avoided all things religious and have tenuously left their religious instruction up to the priest who will be delivering them last rites.  So at least in that respect it is plain that the Pope isn't attempting to teach what articles of faith constitute the necessary elements for having supernatural faith, or even if any do.  It would be good, for these discussions, to see material which engages that point very directly rather than obliquely along the way to make a different point.

    Mmmm, so Christians are bound to the knowledge of specific truths of salvation but non-Christians can get away with not knowing?

    It would seem than the knowledge of Christ and His Church (with the strict obligations that come with it) is rather a curse, then.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Struthio

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #17 on: August 20, 2018, 12:53:32 PM »
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  • The footnote in the encyclical indicates a document shorthanded as Instit. but I'm not sure what document that is, and it could even be a private work of Pope Benedict's since he is largely regarded as one of the best theologian-popes and published many works aside from his pontificate.

    Instit. 27:18 is a reference to Institutiones Ecclesiasticæ, which can be found there: books.google.com.

    Benedict XIV quotes Cornelius a Lapide:

    Quote from: Cornelius a Lapide, In Comment. Epist. S. Jacobi cap. 2.
    Multi enim laborant ignorantia crassa articulorum Fidei, quod explicite scire, et credere tenentur, aeque ac Sacramentorum.


    I couldn't find Cornelius a Lapide online. Possibly the mysteries of the Faith which MUST necessarily be known and believed are the ones from the Credo of St. Athanasius, or as specified by St. Thomas Aquinas.
    It is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church — Leo XIII., Satis Cognitum, 1896

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #18 on: August 20, 2018, 01:04:32 PM »
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  • It is Benedict XIV' Constitution, "Etsi Minime".
    Is it?  As I was looking into it I figured it was his Institutiones Ecclesiasticae, and probably from volume I, likely chapter 27 (the citation in the enclycical indicates instit. 27:18 ).  I'm unsure what the "18" refers to.  This copy (the only complete copy I could find) does not have numerated subdivisions within each chapter: https://books.google.com/books?id=QHWmru22PGoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
    .
    I tried to locate Pius X's citation but I couldn't.  I'm not much of a Latinist, though, I'm sure someone else could.
    .
    Mmmm, so Christians are bound to the knowledge of specific truths of salvation but non-Christians can get away with not knowing?

    It would seem than the knowledge of Christ and His Church (with the strict obligations that come with it) is rather a curse, then.

    .
    I don't see how that follows from the quote you provided.  I was responding to your question viz. "what mysteries is Pope Pius X" referring to?  He doesn't, after all, say.  He cites another pope (incidentally, Institutiones Ecclesiasticae was a compilation of Benedict XIV's legal and pastoral works written before he was pope, published after he was pope.  At least, that's what I've gathered from looking into it.  Makes for an interesting case study in determining what magisterium it belongs to).
    .
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #19 on: August 20, 2018, 01:05:49 PM »
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  • Instit. 27:18 is a reference to Institutiones Ecclesiasticæ, which can be found there: books.google.com.

    Benedict XIV quotes Cornelius a Lapide:


    I couldn't find Cornelius a Lapide online. Possibly the mysteries of the Faith which MUST necessarily be known and believed are the ones from the Credo of St. Athanasius, or as specified by St. Thomas Aquinas.
    .
    Excellent find, Struthio!  And a better copy than the one I dug up, by the looks of it.  Thanks kindly.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #20 on: August 20, 2018, 01:18:43 PM »
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  • Instit. 27:18 is a reference to Institutiones Ecclesiasticæ, which can be found there: books.google.com.

    Benedict XIV quotes Cornelius a Lapide:


    I couldn't find Cornelius a Lapide online. Possibly the mysteries of the Faith which MUST necessarily be known and believed are the ones from the Credo of St. Athanasius, or as specified by St. Thomas Aquinas.
    .
    He doesn't actually say from what I can tell, except that in quoting Lapide, Lapide seems to mention the sacraments.  The broad context it seems is the duties before pastors as pastors to their flock (this is, after all, a canonical and pastoral work), in particular the duty to help the flock grow in knowledge of the faith (which is apropos, and precisely Pope St. Pius X's concern in Acerbo Nimis).  So I'm sure that the Incarnation and Trinity are included in these, but the sense seems to be enlarged for Benedict and Pope St. Pius X's purposes.  They seem more concerned with the growth of faith and knowledge among those who already have it/are members of the Church rather than the introduction of faith to those who don't.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #21 on: August 20, 2018, 01:33:44 PM »
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  • Is it?  As I was looking into it I figured it was his Institutiones Ecclesiasticae, and probably from volume I, likely chapter 27 (the citation in the enclycical indicates instit. 27:18 ).  I'm unsure what the "18" refers to.  This copy (the only complete copy I could find) does not have numerated subdivisions within each chapter: https://books.google.com/books?id=QHWmru22PGoC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
    .

    I figured because that it is the Constitution in which the Pope refers to the necessary truths to be believed, some of necessity of means and some of necessity of precept.

    Here it is in Italian:

    https://digilander.libero.it/magistero/b14etsim.htm
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 01:37:04 PM »
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  • Fist point, translated:

    Quote
    1. Ma poiché ci rivolgiamo a persone che conoscono la legge ed esortiamo gli accorti Vescovi delle Chiese, a cui non fanno difetto né la pietà né le risorse dei Sacri Scritti, riteniamo superfluo ribadire con molteplici argomenti che non è sufficiente, per raggiungere la celeste felicità, credere in modo confuso ed indistinto i Misteri rivelati da Dio e insegnati dalla Chiesa Cattolica.
    Questa celeste dottrina trasmessa da Dio, e che viene accolta con l’ascolto, deve essere ricevuta dalla voce di un maestro legittimo e fedele, in modo tale che ne vengano spiegate singolarmente le verità basilari e siano proposte ai fedeli come verità da credere, alcune per necessità di mezzo e altre per necessità di precetto.
    Anche se affermiamo che si viene giustificati per mezzo della Fede, essendo questa principio e fondamento della salvezza per poter giungere alfine alla bramata futura Città, è parimenti chiaro che la sola Fede non è sufficiente. Occorre conoscere la strada e mantenersi costantemente su di essa, cioè i precetti di Dio e della Chiesa, le virtù da coltivare e i vizi da evitare con cura.


    1. But as we turn to people who know the law and urge the shrewd bishops of the churches, who do not defect neither the pity nor the resources of the sacred writings, we deem superfluous to reiterate with multiple arguments which is not sufficient, to reach the Heavenly Happiness, believing in a confused and indistinct way the mysteries revealed by God and taught by the Catholic Church.

    This heavenly doctrine conveyed by God, and which is welcomed with listening, must be received from the voice of a legitimate and faithful master, in such a way that the basic truths are explained singularly and are proposed to the faithful as truths to be believed, some for Necessity of means and others by necessity of precept.

    Even if we affirm that it is justified by faith, since this principle and foundation of salvation to be able to reach the desired future city, it is also clear that the faith alone is not sufficient. It is necessary to know the way and to keep constantly on it, that is the precepts of God and of the Church, the virtues to cultivate and the vices to avoid with care.


    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #23 on: August 20, 2018, 02:00:25 PM »
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  • I figured because that it is the Constitution in which the Pope refers to the necessary truths to be believed, some of necessity of means and some of necessity of precept.

    Here it is in Italian:

    https://digilander.libero.it/magistero/b14etsim.htm

    I also noticed that in St. Pius X' Acerbo Nimis, #12, he specifically cites Benedict's Constitution: 

    Quote
    12. These prescriptions of the Council of Trent have been summarized and still more clearly defined by Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, in his Constitution Esti minime. "Two chief obligations," he wrote, "have been imposed by the Council of Trent on those who have the care of souls: first, that of preaching the things of God to the people on the feast days; and second, that of teaching the rudiments of faith and of the divine law to the youth and others who need such instruction." Here the wise Pontiff rightly distinguishes between these two duties: one is what is commonly known as the explanation of the Gospel and the other is the teaching of Christian doctrine. Perhaps there are some who, wishing to lessen their labors, would believe that the homily on the Gospel can take the place of catechetical instruction. But for one who reflects a moment, such is obviously impossible. The sermon on the holy Gospel is addressed to those who should have already received knowledge of the elements of faith. It is, so to speak, bread broken for adults. Catechetical instruction, on the other hand, is that milk which the Apostle Peter wished the faithful to desire in all simplicity like newborn babes.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #24 on: August 20, 2018, 02:30:24 PM »
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  • So we go from:

    The Anathasian Creed:

    Quote
    Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this:, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty...

    To >>>>

    Sean Johnson:

    Quote
    Whosoever will be saved...it is necessary to have an explicit act of supernatural faith in at least one aspect of the true religion

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline tdrev123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #25 on: August 20, 2018, 02:34:23 PM »
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  • So we go from:

    The Anathasian Creed:

    To >>>>

    Sean Johnson:
    Usually it is the ones who scream heretic the most that are the true heretics.  


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #26 on: August 20, 2018, 06:58:24 PM »
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  • Can anyone be saved without explicit belief in the Incarnation (Christ) and the Holy Trinity as the OP and Karl Rahner contend?

    DOGMA:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”



    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like the OP (and Karl Rahner) who show  no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase the OP one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.



    If the OP will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince him that he is wrong. He should be prepared though, that if these clear dogmas do not mean what they clearly say, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And he might as well go talk to himself.


    BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)



    The OP and Rahner also deny dogmatic Creeds:



    Athanasian Creed

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    42. and shall give account of their own works.

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.



    The OP also throws  St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Liguori under the bus.



    St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)



    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)










    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 07:27:06 PM »
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  • Can anyone be saved without explicit belief in the Incarnation (Christ) and the Holy Trinity as the OP and Karl Rahner contend?

    DOGMA:

    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”



    If that dogma does not mean what it CLEARLY says, then words have no meaning whatsoever. It is a waste of time to talk to people like the OP (and Karl Rahner) who show  no regard for dogma. Moreover, it does not phase the OP one iota that not a Father, Saint, Doctor, or Council ever taught that anyone can be saved without belief in the Incarnation and the Holy Trinity.



    If the OP will not hear clear dogma from the Holy Ghost, no one and nothing will convince him that he is wrong. He should be prepared though, that if these clear dogmas do not mean what they clearly say, then NOTHING that is written means what it says! And he might as well go talk to himself.


    BODers deny Dogma (Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8)



    The OP and Rahner also deny dogmatic Creeds:



    Athanasian Creed

    1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;

    2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.

    3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;

    4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.

    5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.

    6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.

    7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.

    8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.

    9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.

    10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.

    11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.

    12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.

    13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.

    14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.

    15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;

    16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.

    17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;

    18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.

    19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;

    20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.

    21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.

    22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.

    23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

    24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.

    25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.

    26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.

    27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

    28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.

    29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.

    31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.

    32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.

    33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.

    34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.

    35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.

    36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.

    37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;

    38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;

    39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;

    40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.

    41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;

    42. and shall give account of their own works.

    43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.

    44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.



    The OP also throws  St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus Liguori under the bus.



    St. Thomas, Summa Theologica: "After grace had been revealed both the learned and simple folk are bound to explicit faith in the mysteries of Christ chiefly as regards those which are observed throughout the Church, and publicly proclaimed, such as the articles which refer to the Incarnation, of which we have spoken above."(Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.7.)



    Saint Thomas, Summa Theologica: "And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity." (Pt.II-II, Q.2, A.8.)

    Look at the Feeneyites, all frothy and foaming.

    This IS good fun!
    :popcorn:
    Romans 5:20 "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    -I retract any and all statements I have made that are incongruent with the True Faith, and apologize for ever having made them-


    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 08:11:39 PM »
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  • The relevant question is how did Baptism of Desire get extended to followers of false religions? You won't find St. Alphonsus teaching that. His interpretation of "de fide" doesn't include Hindus, Jews, Muslims, etc.

    St. Augustine, On Nature and Grace

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1503.htm

    Chapter 2


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    Therefore the nature of the human race, generated from the flesh of the one transgressor, if it is self-sufficient for fulfilling the law and for perfecting righteousness, ought to be sure of its reward, that is, of everlasting life, even if in any nation or at any former time faith in the blood of Christ was unknown to it. For God is not so unjust as to defraud righteous persons of the reward of righteousness, because there has not been announced to them the mystery of Christ's divinity and humanity, which was manifested in the flesh. 1 Timothy 3:16 For how could they believe what they had not heard of; or how could they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14 For "faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." But I say (adds he): Have they not heard? "Yea, verily; their sound went out into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world." Romans 10:17-18 Before, however, all this had been accomplished, before the actual preaching of the gospel reaches the ends of all the earth — because there are some remote nations still (although it is said they are very few) to whom the preached gospel has not found its way — what must human nature do, or what has it done — for it had either not heard that all this was to take place, or has not yet learned that it was accomplished — but believe in God who made heaven and earth, by whom also it perceived by nature that it had been itself created, and lead a right life, and thus accomplish His will, uninstructed with any faith in the death and resurrection of Christ? Well, if this could have been done, or can still be done, then for my part I have to say what the apostle said in regard to the law: "Then Christ died in vain." Galatians 2:21 For if he said this about the law, which only the nation of the Jews received, how much more justly may it be said of the law of nature, which the whole human race has received, "If righteousness come by nature, then Christ died in vain." If, however, Christ did not die in vain, then human nature cannot by any means be justified and redeemed from God's most righteous wrath— in a word, from punishment — except by faith and the sacrament of the blood of Christ.


    Find a saint who teaches that Protestants and Eastern heretics can find salvation without the Catholic faith. . . albeit the task is preposterous. You won't find one.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: Is BOD Merely a "Disputed Issue?"
    « Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 08:28:18 PM »
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  • How many are willing to let Baptism of Desire alone? Perhaps if only it is kept to catechumens and those seeking the Catholic faith, the latter perhaps ignorant of the necessity of Baptism but seeking the faith in all earnest, THAT is implicit desire.

    Of the speculative number that might be saved by BoD how many more have in their deaths before Baptism a just punishment. . .
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

     

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