Author Topic: Is baptism optional? (Read 6957 times)

McCork · « **on:** January 30, 2016, 12:52:25 PM »

In a recent thread in the Crisis section, about how the Novus Ordo rite of baptism is doubtful, some infected with Feeneyism claimed that I think that baptism is "optional", and tried to turn the OP into a thread about baptism of desire.

Is baptism optional? No, it isn't. False claim.

When one has any "option" one has a conscious choice between at least two things, and freely wills to choose one over the other.

Can one consciously think of the Sacrament of baptism on the one hand and baptism of desire on the other, and choose baptism of desire? No. It is not an option.

By analogy, Christ instituted the Sacrament of Penance. However, there is the teaching that rarely, and unknowingly to the penitent, his sins are forgiven before going to the Confessional. The penitent has no option other than to will to go to Confession, but if he dies before getting there, he is already in the state of sanctifying grace. Is one going to ask that if the man can gain sanctifying grace before Confession, did Christ institute the Sacrament in vain? Of course not, because gaining sanctifying grace before Confession is rare. Christ made it easy to gain sanctifying grace without perfect contrition.

The Sacrament of Baptism & baptism of desire have the very same relationship.

Desmond · « **Reply #1 on:** January 30, 2016, 01:37:13 PM »

Dear McCork,

you are confusing the issue by perhaps using an incorrect/improper definition for the term "optional".

In the context of the Council of Trent's Session VII, On Baptism, CANON V. :

"-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema. "

Optional here does not mean "possible but not compulsory; left to personal choice", instead it would be correctly translated as "free, superflous, unnecessary" as other translations and the latin text make clear:

6. "Si quis dixerit baptismum liberum esse hoc est non necessarium ad salutem: anathema sit."

The necessity regards the Sacrament itself, not the person's obligation and/or potential possibility of choice, preference, will.

Therefore, if we were to accept BOD as usually understood, even by you, it is true it would be optional, ergo unnecessary, superflous, free.

Understood in a strict and Catholic way, it would not be optional, as the Sacrament itself would be administered via the desire, and it could only ever apply to those who, for some reason (hypothetically but dubiously) were unable to obtain the actual physical Sacrament while wanting to (having explicit desire for it).

Having said that, in the usual BODomaniac understanding of "baptism of desire", I would venture out and say it truly is optional even in the sense you erroneously meant, in fact.

One could actually delay the Sacrament, being aware of BOD, as even the desire for the Sacrament is wholly unnecessary, only thing required is an implicit will to conform to an implicit understanding of one's faith.

Unless you can somehow demonstrate that BODomaniac's BOD would not apply to someone willingly delaying the Sacrament due to his reliance on BOD itself.

Desmond · « **Reply #2 on:** January 30, 2016, 01:51:15 PM »

In other words, the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary, in "classical Catholicism", both as a necessity of precept and means.

With "Catholic BOD", the Sacrament is still absolutely necessary as a precept, not so much as a means, only indirectly so, at least as far as the person is concerned.
Necessity of means is "saved" by forcing the votum to act as a supernatural/transphysical catalyst for the Sacrament itself.

With "BODomania" the Sacrament is not necessary in any way shape or form, but basically just a ipso facto wholly passive character impressed by God on whosoever is chosen as an elect. Whether he knows of it or not, desires it or not, knows God Himself or not. Frankly speaking.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #3 on:** January 30, 2016, 02:58:39 PM »

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism

Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Q. 645. What is Baptism of water?
A. Baptism of water is that which is given by pouring water on the head of the person to be baptized, and saying at the same time, "I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism

Q. 650. What is Baptism of desire?
A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

Q. 651. What is Baptism of blood?
A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one's blood for the faith of Christ.

JohnAnthonyMarie · « **Reply #4 on:** January 30, 2016, 03:08:40 PM »

If you were to lean right to about forty-five degrees, the world might appear at an angle, but it isn't, you are.

McCork · « **Reply #5 on:** January 30, 2016, 05:02:46 PM »

Quote from: Desmond

In other words, the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary, in "classical Catholicism", both as a necessity of precept and means.

With "Catholic BOD", the Sacrament is still absolutely necessary as a precept, not so much as a means, only indirectly so, at least as far as the person is concerned.
Necessity of means is "saved" by forcing the votum to act as a supernatural/transphysical catalyst for the Sacrament itself.

With "BODomania" the Sacrament is not necessary in any way shape or form, but basically just a ipso facto wholly passive character impressed by God on whosoever is chosen as an elect. Whether he knows of it or not, desires it or not, knows God Himself or not. Frankly speaking.

I am aware that Trent considers the "options" to be baptism, or no baptism, and then includes baptism of desire as being a part of baptism.

Apparently, among all the basic tenets of Catholicism you have not, by your own admission, discerned yet, this is one of them, and thanks to JAM's quotes here, I hope you are cured of this one.

Feeneyites reject magisterial teaching by either mutilating its meaning or denying it to be magisterial. But they will say the most absurd and impossible thing, that the Church, the popes, Saints, clergy, laity, can use an officially approved catechism teaching baptism of desire, and for generation of the same living and dying and NOBODY noticed that was was being taught called into doubt a previously defined dogma. We know that the Church says that those who call into doubt just one dogma have "fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith" (Munificentissimus Deus, 1950).

When Feeneyites are asked about how all those generations could have been calling into doubt previously defined dogma....they clam up.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #6 on:** January 30, 2016, 07:43:28 PM »

Quote from: McCork

I am aware that Trent considers the "options" to be baptism, or no baptism, and then includes baptism of desire as being a part of baptism.

You completely pulled that out of your ass, didn't you? Trent teaches that the SACRAMENT of Baptism is necessary for salvation. At no point does Trent say anything CLOSE to what you're claiming, that BoD is "part of" baptism. You completely made that up and pulled it out of your ass for your convenience.

I've explained it at least a dozen times now how you COULD understand BoD in a manner consistent with Trent, but you refuse to allow this explanation to enter your EENS-denying, Pelagian, Sacrament-disparaging, heresy-addled mind.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #7 on:** January 30, 2016, 07:47:26 PM »

Quote from: McCork

We know that the Church says that those who call into doubt just one dogma have "fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith" (Munificentissimus Deus, 1950).

By your own words, then, are you condemned as a heretic, for you deny the dogmatic teaching of Trent that the Sacraments are necessary for salvation.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #8 on:** January 30, 2016, 07:50:49 PM »

There were also approved catechisms before Vatican I that denied the dogma of infallibility. Catechisms are not part of the Magisterium. Nor is everything contained in them presented as infallible or revealed or dogmatic. In the case of BoD or BoB, these represent nothing more than a widely accepted piece of speculative theology. McCushing here keeps falsely claiming this negative infallibility crap and then using this false premise to "prove" BoD.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #9 on:** January 30, 2016, 07:53:06 PM »

Quote from: McCork

When Feeneyites are asked about how all those generations could have been calling into doubt previously defined dogma....they clam up.

Only the Dimonds claim that BoD is heretical, so you're setting up a straw man. Most of us "Feeneyites" simply consider it a misguided and mistaken exercise in speculative theology. So yet again you simply make thing up, McPelagius.

Desmond · « **Reply #10 on:** January 30, 2016, 09:03:10 PM »

Dear McCork,

why not address some points I raised, crucial to your OP?

In your BODomaniac understanding of the "doctrine" of Baptism of Desire,
how is the Sacrament of Baptism not optional, contrary to your claim, as:

1)a necessity for Salvation. It is not, since BOD is Salvific by itself, decoupled from the Sacrament

2)an actual choice for a person. He can reject/delay/ignore Baptism, as he will be covered by Bod anyway. Both passively, as ignorant of the necessity itself, and actively, as a preferred choice, as desire is unnecessary anyway.

What you attempted to say in the OP, you don't even believe in anyway.
Why mention Penance? Can one have "his sins are forgiven before going to the Confessional" without actually both desiring to, and being penitent about them?

Even if Baptism were to function similarly to Penance, it still wouldn't fit your own understanding.

I must say having to rely on confusion and deceit to defend one's beliefs is usually a tell tale sign they are wrong and/or heretical.

Desmond · « **Reply #11 on:** January 30, 2016, 09:24:48 PM »

Quote from: McCork

Feeneyites reject magisterial teaching by either mutilating its meaning or denying it to be magisterial.

IF BOD is magisterial, then it has to be necessarily compatible with the rest of Doctrine, and infallible Dogma.
Faith isn't some absurd shamanic ineffable contradictin' mess you know.
It is self-consistent, logical and comprehensible to the human mind.

Quote

But they will say the most absurd and impossible thing, that the Church, the popes, Saints, clergy, laity, can use an officially approved catechism teaching baptism of desire, and for generation of the same living and dying and NOBODY noticed that was was being taught called into doubt a previously defined dogma.

Maybe, unlike you, they taught of BOD in a Catholic manner? Ever thought of that?

Maybe they didn't extend BOD to infidels and demon worshipers like you?

But contemplated the possibility only for catechumens.

Quote

We know that the Church says that those who call into doubt just one dogma have "fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith" (Munificentissimus Deus, 1950).

Yes, and that is why probably the number of actual Catholic today is slim to none. From what I've seen even the "traditionalist" circles are error-ridden to the brim. Do you not believe this is the Great Apostasy yourself?

Quote

When Feeneyites are asked about how all those generations could have been calling into doubt previously defined dogma....they clam up.

BOD before our crazy times (20th century) was probably a footnote in the huge volume of Catholic Doctrine. I doubt many people even thought about it much. Having said that, it can be compatible with the dogma.

Nevertheless even if a consistent number of people would have embraced an heretical concept of BOD it wouldn't prove anything anyway as it is theoretically possible.

Stubborn · « **Reply #12 on:** January 31, 2016, 04:58:05 AM »

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism

Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Paul said to the Ephesians; One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism

Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

Cantarella · « **Reply #13 on:** January 31, 2016, 10:50:30 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism
Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Paul said to the Ephesians; One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism
Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

In the original Americanist Baltimore catechism of 1894 it appears the word "three". The way it was worded in the original catechism is actually heretical, so it was modified in later editions. There are NOT "three baptisms" and never have been.

This is the original Catechism of 1894 which contained the word "three" as shown here:

http://www.boston-catholic-journal.com/baltimore_catechism.pdf

; but it was plainly heretical and the revised editions (1941) do not longer have the word "three":

http://www.catholicity.com/baltimore-catechism/

Yet the "traditionalists" are not content with these revisions and still want to claim there are "three" baptisms. Traditionalists in name only, that is.

McCork · « **Reply #14 on:** January 31, 2016, 11:47:13 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism
Q. 631. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?
A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Saint Paul said to the Ephesians; One Lord, one faith, one baptism.

Quote from: Baltimore Catechism #3 Fourteenth Lesson: On Baptism
Q. 644. How many kinds of Baptism are there?
A. There are three kinds of Baptism: 1.Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

A pure Protestant move - private interpretation. You quote scripture for a meaning that the Church does not give it. The Church is above Scripture and tells us what it means and doesn't mean. The Catechism tells us what it means, and the Church approved of it.