Author Topic: Invincible ignorance, the 8th Sacrament? (Read 3666 times)

Jehanne · « **on:** November 26, 2014, 11:38:13 PM »

http://www.cfnews.org/page88/files/77982a376d9f1b199810842b1f158b8e-203.html

songbird · « **Reply #1 on:** November 27, 2014, 10:20:28 AM »

I also believe and will not forget, that God Loves us to the point that we all receive actual graces, to find truth. God will see to it.

Remember, CFN is sitting on a fence. Traditional? New Order? Leaves one to guessing.

Cantarella · « **Reply #2 on:** November 27, 2014, 12:58:11 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Is CFN unaware of something else Pius IX wrote?

"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? "

For the thousand time, the person is not guilty of heresy or infidelity due to the ignorance, but only original and actual sins. This is what this says. The invincible ignorant is not saved on account of original sin, at the very least. This is because only Baptism remits Original Sin. Nobody can be saved without the Catholic Faith.

St. Thomas himself explained that those who die invincibly ignorant, who have heard nothing about the Faith through no fault of their own are still damned for their sins, including original sin, which cannot be taken away without Baptism and the Faith. Original Sin suffices for damnation.

Jehanne · « **Reply #3 on:** November 27, 2014, 02:24:01 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: Nado
Is CFN unaware of something else Pius IX wrote?

"For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, will not be held guilty of this in the eyes of God. Now, in truth, who would arrogate so much to himself as to mark the limits of such an ignorance, because of the nature and variety of peoples, regions, innate dispositions, and of so many other things? "

For the thousand time, the person is not guilty of heresy or infidelity due to the ignorance, but only original and actual sins. This is what this says. The invincible ignorant is not saved on account of original sin, at the very least. This is because only Baptism remits Original Sin. Nobody can be saved without the Catholic Faith.

St. Thomas himself explained that those who die invincibly ignorant, who have heard nothing about the Faith through no fault of their own are still damned for their sins, including original sin, which cannot be taken away without Baptism and the Faith. Original Sin suffices for damnation.

That is what you are claiming, but that is NOT what Pius IX is plainly saying.

You are either making Pius IX say:

.....but, on the other hand - no ignorance can prevent conversion.

OR

.....but, on the other hand - even though they will go to hell for eternity, it will not be for willfully refusing to recognize the true Church of Christ, but for other damnable reasons.

Both of those interpretations are absolutely absurd, but that is what your explanation amounts to - putting an idiotic spin to a pope's words that plainly don't fit the context.

Both of the above propositions are absolutely true.

Jehanne · « **Reply #4 on:** November 27, 2014, 04:15:57 PM »

Quote from: Nado

It was NEVER doubted anywhere that people cannot be converted, which makes the whole statement idiotic.

Vatican I, which Pope Pius IX approved, taught that people can be converted:

Quote

14. To this witness is added the effective help of power from on high. For, the kind Lord stirs up those who go astray and helps them by his grace so that they may come to the knowledge of the truth [23] ; and also confirms by his grace those whom he has translated into his admirable light [24], so that they may persevere in this light, not abandoning them unless he is first abandoned.

songbird · « **Reply #5 on:** November 27, 2014, 06:26:22 PM »

That is "Actual Grace", stirs them up to want Truth to Baptism.

Cantarella · « **Reply #6 on:** November 27, 2014, 11:48:29 PM »

Quote from: songbird

That is "Actual Grace", stirs them up to want Truth to Baptism.

Yes, There are two kinds of grace. Actual Grace, which comes from the Catholic Church, is given to those outside the Catholic Church (non-Catholics) to effect their conversion. Whereas Sanctifying Grace is given only to those inside the Catholic Church, (validly baptized Catholics).

tdrev123 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 28, 2014, 11:43:55 AM »

When discussing Pope Pius IX quotes you need to understand the context!

http://www.fatherfeeney.org/other/masonry.html

I am not a feeneyite but this is a great article.

When you only look at one quote that a saint or pope said and not look at the context or all his other quotes, you are the same as a protestant.

Cantarella · « **Reply #8 on:** November 28, 2014, 11:45:05 AM »

Quote from: tdrev123

When discussing Pope Pius IX quotes you need to understand the context!

http://www.fatherfeeney.org/other/masonry.html

I am not a feeneyite but this is a great article.

When you only look at one quote that a saint or pope said and not look at the context or all his other quotes, you are the same as a protestant.

Great article. Thanks

Quote

The tragedy of all tragedies, however, is that Pope Pius IX has not been allowed to rest in peace. The Catholic Liberals(friends of masons), on whom he made unrelenting war during his entire pontificate, have in our day tried to make him the father of the modern heresy!

Cantarella · « **Reply #9 on:** November 28, 2014, 11:55:25 AM »

This same Pope IX later on wrote the "Syllabus of Modern Errors" in which indifferentism is definitely condemned, perhaps because he was aware of how the liberals had twisted his words and allow salvation for Non-Catholics. They still do so to this day! even "traditionalist" puppets such CMRI who hold the EENS salutary Rahner style.

Take a look at these four condemned errors:

Quote

15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true. -- Allocution "Maxima quidem," June 9, 1862; Damnatio "Multiplices inter," June 10, 1851.

16. Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation, and arrive at eternal salvation. -- Encyclical "Qui pluribus," Nov. 9, 1846.

17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. -- Encyclical "Quanto conficiamur," Aug. 10, 1863, etc.

18. Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church. -- Encyclical "Noscitis," Dec. 8, 1849.

Liberals will not mention these quotes either:

Quote from: Pius IX

"As there is, but one God the Father, one Christ his Son, one Holy Ghost, so there is also only one divinely revealed truth, only one divine faith - the beginning of man's salvation and the foundation of all justification, by which (faith) the just man lives, and without which it is impossible to please God and to be admitted to the Communion of his children; and there is but one true, holy, Catholic, Roman Church and divine teaching Authority, (cathedra) founded upon Peter by the living voice of the Lord, out of which (Church) there is neither the TRUE FAITH nor ETERNAL SALVATION, since no one, can have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his Mother." (Encycl. Letter, March 17, 1856.)

Quote from: Pius IX

It is necessary that you inculcate this salutary teaching in the souls of those who exaggerate the power of human reason to such a point that they dare, by its power, to investigate and explain the mysteries themselves, than which nothing is more foolish, nothing more insane. Strive to call them back from such a perversity of mind, explaining indeed that nothing was granted to men by God’s Providence more excellent than the authority of the divine faith, that this faith is to us like a torch in the darkness, that it is the leader that we follow to Life, that it is absolutely necessary for salvation, since “without faith it is impossible to please God,” and “he that believeth not shall be condemned

Quote from: Pius IX

Let us hold most firmly that our Catholic doctrine, there is ONE GOD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM. To try and inquire further in unlawful.

Cantarella · « **Reply #10 on:** November 28, 2014, 12:20:11 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: tdrev123
When discussing Pope Pius IX quotes you need to understand the context!

http://www.fatherfeeney.org/other/masonry.html

I am not a feeneyite but this is a great article.

When you only look at one quote that a saint or pope said and not look at the context or all his other quotes, you are the same as a protestant.

That article doesn't address this subject at all.

It does, the point of the article is that the words of Popes Pius IX about Invincible Ignorance have been purposely misinterpreted by the liberals and the freemasons who were conspiring to destroy the exclusivity of the Catholic Church for salvation in since his time. They still do it today. It ends with indifferentism and universal salvation.

Jehanne · « **Reply #11 on:** November 28, 2014, 01:15:08 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Let the liberals and freemasons misinterpret his words. Who cares. We are now talking about what his words actually mean in the context of that docuмent. It is plainly idiotic to say he was telling the other clergy that they needed to know that conversion was possible.

What do you think that Pope Pius IX was trying to teach then?

Cantarella · « **Reply #12 on:** November 28, 2014, 01:22:14 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Quote from: Cantarella
Quote from: Nado
Quote from: tdrev123
When discussing Pope Pius IX quotes you need to understand the context!

http://www.fatherfeeney.org/other/masonry.html

I am not a feeneyite but this is a great article.

When you only look at one quote that a saint or pope said and not look at the context or all his other quotes, you are the same as a protestant.

That article doesn't address this subject at all.

It does, the point of the article is that the words of Popes Pius IX about Invincible Ignorance have been purposely misinterpreted by the liberals and the freemasons who were conspiring to destroy the exclusivity of the Catholic Church for salvation in since his time. They still do it today. It ends with indifferentism and universal salvation.

Let the liberals and freemasons misinterpret his words. Who cares. We are now talking about what his words actually mean in the context of that docuмent. It is plainly idiotic to say he was telling the other clergy that they needed to know that conversion was possible.

The problem is that the words are misinterpreted to this day by Nado herself along with other liberals, (among the "traditionalists", especially those associated with the CMRI). In doing this, they enlist in the same ranks of the freemason enemies of the Church.

Jehanne · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2014, 02:04:55 PM »

Quote from: Nado

Which one, or both?

Why didn't he just come out and say it clearly like I just did?

For the second time, what is your interpretation of Pope Pius IX's words, then?

Ladislaus · « **Reply #14 on:** November 28, 2014, 02:39:55 PM »

Quote from: Nado

That is what you are claiming, but that is NOT what Pius IX is plainly saying.

No, that's exactly what Pius IX is saying; he's merely reiterating what St. Thomas taught on the subject. Invincible ignorance can never be salvific, merely exculpatory.