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 Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.”

I think we've all seen this quote a zillion times but it begs the question: If a catechumen dies without baptism, exactly how is that not his fault?

I'm not speaking about the catechumen on his way to be baptized who drops dead one step from the door of the Church, I'm talking about any catechumen worth being called a catechumen who knows he cannot get to heaven without the sacrament - yet delays receiving the sacrament *for whatever reason* then dies without ever having been baptized.

It has *got* to be somebody's fault - if it's not his own fault, then whose fault is it?

Nadie,

When you show me stuff like this it gets me thinking...


Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the Church before the end of their lives; that the unity of this ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only those who abide in it do the Church’s sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia productive of eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Is this statement official doctrine? or is it a just a statement? Also, Do you have the surrounding paragraphs so that I can examine the entire conversation more...so that I can tell what context it is in?


Much of the other quotes mention "Outside of the Catholic Church" which, in some people's opinions, does not necessarily refer to people of other religions. According to some, you can be apart of the Catholic Church but in an imperfect way if you practice another religion. And, under certain circuмstances, you would have a chance for salvation.

The Nine statements are all dogmatic infallible decrees. The surest source of truth, straight from the Holy Ghost to the pope who declared it. There is no "context", they have never been disputed as being out of context. Look up the councils and see the entire docuмent if you wish, each says exactly where it came from.

The part I have bolded is an obvious reference to Baptism of Desire:

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God" Council of Trent, Sixth Session, Fourth Chapter, A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Baptism of Desire is Catholic teaching, Nadie. Many Saints and Popes believed in it, not to mention the Council of Trent.
 

The Council of Trent made no mention of BOD.

It did, and I'm pretty sure the Council's Catechism did as well.

If the Council of Trent defined or made mention of BOD, then post it.

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Baptism of Desire is Catholic teaching, Nadie. Many Saints and Popes believed in it, not to mention the Council of Trent.

(By the way, in case anyone assumed that I was a Feeneyite after my last post, I'm not, just to set the record straight.)

The Council of Trent made no mention of BOD.

You also need to define BOD. Many saints believed in BOD? What saints and what definition of BOD?

It did, and I'm pretty sure the Council's Catechism did as well.

This is the definition of Baptism of Desire that I am refering to, the one also believed by many Saints and Popes: people who die with the desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church die as members of the church. BOD does not in any way contradict the Church's teaching on salvation. A few quotes:

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"The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed. (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57)" St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?

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"baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de ####o non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent" St. Alphonsus Ligouri's Moral Theology Manual (15th century), Bk. 6, no. 95., Concerning Baptism

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“Those who have died without baptism are not to be given ecclesiastical burial. Catechumens who die without baptism through no fault of their own are to be counted among the baptized.” (Canon 1239) 1917 Code of Canon Law

The things that Nadie did not include....

Quote from: nadieimportante

Quote from: SpiritusSanctus

Baptism of Desire is Catholic teaching, Nadie. Many Saints and Popes believed in it..

You also need to define BOD. Many saints believed in BOD? What saints and what definition of BOD?

This is the definition of Baptism of Desire that I am refering to, the one also believed by many Saints and Popes: people who die with the desire to be baptized into the Catholic Church die as members of the church.
 

The Americanists and liberals knew that the only way to be a member of the Church, is water baptism, therfore, they would say that those saved by BOD, were members of the Invincible Church or the Soul of the Church. That theory was shot down by Pius XII. Now, who knows what excuse they will come up with. The fact is that they are not members of the Church. They are outside of the Church. And that's just two more leaps of faith that you have to make to believe that someone who desires to be baptized but dies "by accident" (make that three leaps of faith)can be saved.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis (# 22), June 29, 1943: “Actually only those are to be numbered among the members of the Church who have received the laver of regeneration and profess the true faith.”

Pope Pius XII, Mediator Dei (# 43), Nov. 20, 1947: “In the same
way, actually that baptism is the distinctive mark of all
Christians, and serves to differentiate them from those who
have not been cleansed in this purifying stream and
consequently are not members of Christ, the sacrament of holy
orders sets the priest apart from the rest of the faithful who
have not received this consecration.”

These two statements exclude the idea that one can be saved by even an explicit
desire for baptism, since they affirm that those who have not received the Sacrament of Baptism are not Christians or members of the Church or members of Christ. (Those who are not Christians or members of the Church or members of Christ cannot be saved.)

 In other words, according to the pronouncement of Pope Pius XII in Mediator Dei, to assert that one could be a Christian or a member of Christ without the mark of baptism (which is what the theory of baptism of desire asserts) is akin to asserting that one can be a priest without ordination.

Here's some more material I didn't give you before:

The Soul of the Church is the Holy Ghost. It is not an invisible
extension of the mystical body which includes the unbaptized.

Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943: “ Leo XIII, Encyclical, “Divinum illud,” [expressed it] in these words: ‘Let it suffice to
state this, that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, the Holy Spirit is her
soul.’”

Second, the Church is essentially (i.e., in its essence) a Mystical Body.
Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516: “… the mystical
body, the Church (corpore mystico)…”Pope St. Pius X, Editae saepe (# 8), May 26, 1910: “… the Church, the Mystical Body of Christ…”Pope Leo XII, Quod Hoc Ineunte (# 1), May 24, 1824: “… His mystical Body.”

Therefore, to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Body is to teach that one can be saved without belonging to the Church, since the Church is a Body. And this is without question an error.

A man can be either inside the Church or outside the Church. He can be either inside or outside the Body. There isn’t a third realm in which the Church exists – an invisible Soul of the Church. Those who say that one can be saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church, while not belonging to her Body, deny the undivided unity of the Church’s Body and Soul, which is parallel to denying the undivided unity of Christ’s Divine andHuman natures.

Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 3), June 29, 1896: “For this reason the Church is so often called in Holy Writ a body, and even the body of Christ… From this it
follows that those who arbitrarily conjure up and picture to themselves a hidden
and invisible Church are in grievous and pernicious error... It is assuredly
impossible that the Church of Jesus Christ can be the one or the other, as that
man should be a body alone or a soul alone. The connection and union of
both elements is as absolutely necessary to the true Church as the intimate
union of the soul and body is to human nature. The Church is not something
dead: it is the body of Christ endowed with supernatural life.”

The denial of the union of the Church’s Body and Soul leads to the errory that the Church is invisible, which was condemned by Popes Leo XIII (above), Pius XI  and Pius XII.

Third, the most powerful proof against the “Soul of the Church” heresy logically
follows from the first two already discussed. The third proof is that the infallible
magisterium of the Catholic Church has defined that belonging to the Body of the
Church is necessary for salvation!

Pope Eugene IV, in his Bull Cantate Domino, defined that the unity of the
ecclesiastical body (ecclesiastici corporis) is so strong that no one can be saved outside of it, even if he sheds his blood in the name of Christ. This destroys the idea that one canbe saved by belonging to the Soul of the Church without belonging to its Body.

Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (# 10), Jan. 6, 1928: “For since
the mystical body of Christ, in the same manner as His physical
body, is one, compacted and fitly joined together, it were
foolish and out of place to say that the mystical body is made
up of members which are disunited and scattered abroad:
whosoever therefore is not united with the body is no
member of it, neither is he in communion with Christ its
head.”

Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
“For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and nonexempt,
belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at
all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith. That is why it is
fitting that, belonging to the one same body, they also have the one same
will…”

Pope Clement XIV, cuм Summi (# 3), Dec. 12, 1769: “One is the body of
the Church, whose head is Christ, and all cohere in it.”

"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16). (Tertullian)

"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22). (Origen)

"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]). (Cyril of Jerusalem)

"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]). (St. John Chrysostom)

"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]). (Ambrose of Milan)

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]). (St. Augustine)

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]). (St. Augustine)

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-necessity-of-baptism