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Author Topic: Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD  (Read 4042 times)

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Offline Stubborn

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Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2014, 10:45:18 AM »
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  • Amongst the CI NSAAers, there are as many different ideas about what a BOD even is as  there are different paths that lead to a BOD, but they all lead to heaven - that is the only thing they all can agree with.

    BOD is the wide gate, and the roads leading to a BOD are broad, "and many there are who go in thereat."

    It's us anti BODers who need to remain faithful so that we stay on the straight road with the narrow gate, because that's the one and only way to heaven - "and few there are that find it!"

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #16 on: August 24, 2014, 12:39:00 PM »
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  • Actually, if there is such a thing as BoD, Innocent III is correct and St. Thomas / St. Alphonsus are wrong.

    Since they absolutely refuse to answer the question, I'll help them out.



    Offline Ladislaus

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #17 on: August 24, 2014, 05:41:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Amongst the CI NSAAers, there are as many different ideas about what a BOD even is as  there are different paths that lead to a BOD, but they all lead to heaven - that is the only thing they all can agree with.


    That's because the entire concept is just made up out of thin air; it's nothing but speculation.

    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #18 on: August 24, 2014, 07:47:43 PM »
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  • Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,
    Article 2. Whether a man can be saved without Baptism?

    Objection 1. It seems that no man can be saved without Baptism. For our Lord said (John 3:5): "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." But those alone are saved who enter God's kingdom. Therefore none can be saved without Baptism, by which a man is born again of water and the Holy Ghost.

    Objection 2. Further, in the book De Eccl. Dogm. xli, it is written: "We believe that no catechumen, though he die in his good works, will have eternal life, except he suffer martyrdom, which contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism." But if it were possible for anyone to be saved without Baptism, this would be the case specially with catechumens who are credited with good works, for they seem to have the "faith that worketh by charity" (Galatians 5:6). Therefore it seems that none can be saved without Baptism.

    Objection 3. Further, as stated above (1; 65, 4), the sacrament of Baptism is necessary for salvation. Now that is necessary "without which something cannot be" (Metaph. v). Therefore it seems that none can obtain salvation without Baptism.

    On the contrary, Augustine says (Super Levit. lxxxiv) that "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification, it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification.

    I answer that, The sacrament or Baptism may be wanting to someone in two ways. First, both in reality and in desire; as is the case with those who neither are baptized, nor wished to be baptized: which clearly indicates contempt of the sacrament, in regard to those who have the use of the free-will. Consequently those to whom Baptism is wanting thus, cannot obtain salvation: since neither sacramentally nor mentally are they incorporated in Christ, through Whom alone can salvation be obtained.

    Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that worketh by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for."

    Reply to Objection 1. As it is written (1 Samuel 16:7), "man seeth those things that appear, but the Lord beholdeth the heart." Now a man who desires to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" by Baptism, is regenerated in heart though not in body. thus the Apostle says (Romans 2:29) that "the circuмcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but of God."

    Reply to Objection 2. No man obtains eternal life unless he be free from all guilt and debt of punishment. Now this plenary absolution is given when a man receives Baptism, or suffers martyrdom: for which reason is it stated that martyrdom "contains all the sacramental virtue of Baptism," i.e. as to the full deliverance from guilt and punishment. Suppose, therefore, a catechumen to have the desire for Baptism (else he could not be said to die in his good works, which cannot be without "faith that worketh by charity"), such a one, were he to die, would not forthwith come to eternal life, but would suffer punishment for his past sins, "but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" as is stated 1 Corinthians 3:15.

    Reply to Objection 3. The sacrament of Baptism is said to be necessary for salvation in so far as man cannot be saved without, at least, Baptism of desire; "which, with God, counts for the deed" (Augustine, Enarr. in Ps. 57).
    Omnes pro Christo

    Offline Alcuin

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #19 on: August 25, 2014, 04:25:50 AM »
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  • Something d-o-o economics...?


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #20 on: August 25, 2014, 07:35:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Alcuin
    Something d-o-o economics...?


    Can you elaborate?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #21 on: August 25, 2014, 08:55:21 AM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Alcuin
    Something d-o-o economics...?


    Can you elaborate?


    Would you care to answer the question of the OP?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #22 on: August 25, 2014, 10:04:58 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Alcuin
    Something d-o-o economics...?


    Can you elaborate?


    Would you care to answer the question of the OP?


    I do not make the point and am not familiar with it.  I am only familiar with the overwhelming evidence, which falls under infallible teaching of the ordinary universal magisterium which shows your position to be, at least erroneous.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #23 on: August 25, 2014, 10:15:11 AM »
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  • LoT, you have just ADMITTED that you filter out all evidence that doesn't sync up with what you want to believe.  You are not seeking the truth and are not the least bit honest.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #24 on: August 25, 2014, 10:20:02 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, Pt. III, Q. 68, A. 2, Reply to Obj. 2
    If therefore a catechumen has the desire for Baptism... then such a one departing does not immediately attain eternal life but will suffer punishment for past sins.  Nevertheless he himself will be saved in this way as though through fire, as stated in 1 Cor. III.



    Okay.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #25 on: August 25, 2014, 10:21:13 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ladislaus
    LoT, you have just ADMITTED that you filter out all evidence that doesn't sync up with what you want to believe.  You are not seeking the truth and are not the least bit honest.



    I admitted no such thing.  And what you claim I admit is not true.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline One Dove

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #26 on: August 25, 2014, 12:10:57 PM »
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  • Invincible Ignorance Fallacy: “The invincible ignorance fallacy is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given. It is not so much a fallacious tactic in argument as it is a refusal to argue in the proper sense of the word, the method instead being to make assertions with no consideration of objections.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #27 on: August 25, 2014, 12:14:29 PM »
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  • Quote from: One Dove
    Invincible Ignorance Fallacy: “The invincible ignorance fallacy is a deductive fallacy of circularity where the person in question simply refuses to believe the argument, ignoring any evidence given. It is not so much a fallacious tactic in argument as it is a refusal to argue in the proper sense of the word, the method instead being to make assertions with no consideration of objections.


    The invincible ignorance "fallacy".   We are not talking about any fallacy but the truth which the Church infallibly teaches.  Feeneyites manifest their ignorance on this topic which is why the discussion continues to go in circles.

    They err.

    We present Church teaching.

    They deny it and call us names.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Stubborn

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #28 on: August 25, 2014, 12:22:27 PM »
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  • Quote from: Lover of Truth


    They deny it and call us names.


    Who calls you Cushingites names? The "Feeneyites"?

     :facepalm:
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Innocent III Contradicts St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus about BoD
    « Reply #29 on: August 25, 2014, 12:24:57 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Lover of Truth


    They deny it and call us names.


    Who calls you Cushingites names? The "Feeneyites"?

     :facepalm:


    Where did I say they call us Cushingites names?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church