Author Topic: In John 3:5 is Our Lord giving a law or a proposition (statement of fact)? (Read 975 times)

MarylandTrad · « **on:** February 16, 2015, 02:08:50 PM »

Fr. Laisney on John 3:5

“There is a law established by Jesus Christ, that every man must be baptized in order to be saved. ‘Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ (Jn 3:5)…Yet God is not bound by the laws He has set. As He sometimes produces an effect in the natural order bypassing the ordinary secondary causes He has established (this is called “a miracle”), so also He sometimes produces grace in souls, bypassing the ordinary secondary causes, i.e., without the exterior sign of the Sacrament; this is a miracle of the supernatural order.”

Brother Francis responds:

"It is not correct to say that the above quote from Our Lord is a “law.” A law, strictly speaking is a command or a prohibition. The sentence quoted from St. John is a proposition, a statement of fact. It is either true or it is false. We know it is a proposition because we can formulate its contradictory; “Some men can enter the kingdom of God who have not been born again of water and the Holy Ghost.” A law – a command or prohibition – does not entail truth or falsehood per se. “Do not eat the fruit of this tree.” Can we say of this statement true or false? No we cannot. Can we formulate a contradictory statement in a declarative sense? No we cannot because it is a law, not a proposition.”

The above quotes are recorded in Fr. Wathen’s book Who Shall Ascend

Arvinger · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2015, 12:46:29 AM »

The Early Church Fathers are extremelly clear on that matter, they unanimously agree on the necessity of baptism for salvation, usually using John 3:5 (although one could go to 1 Peter 3:21, Mark 16:16 and other passages).

Quote from: St. Chromatius of Aquilea, Sermon 34

The heavens opened at the Baptism of the Lord, to show that the washing of regeneration opens the kingdom of heaven to believers, according to the decree of the Lord: "unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (Jn 3:5)". Those who enter are those who do not neglect to keep the grace of their baptism.

Quote from: St Irenaeus of Lyon, Fragment 34

For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions; being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Unless a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Quote from: St. Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 71

For then finally can they be fully sanctified, and be the sons of God, if they be born of each sacrament; since it is written, "Unless a man be born again of water, and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Ladislaus · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:54:17 PM »

Essentially, Father Laisney is claiming that Baptism is necessary by a necessity of precept -- which contradicts ALL Catholics theologians on the subject.

As for God being "bound" by His own requirements, it's not a question what God is BOUND by as it is a question of what God is BINDING us by.

Father Laisney and all the dishonest Cushingites keep blustering about how God cannot be bound by His Sacraments but them out of the other side of their mouth claim that God can be bound by "impossibility" (the underlying heretical premise behind BoD that St. Augustine condemns in no uncertain terms after rejecting BoD).

Ladislaus · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2015, 06:02:19 PM »

CAN God bypass the Sacraments to confer grace? Absolutely speaking, of course He can. That's not the issue. What's under consideration is whether He actually DOES bypass the Sacraments, and the burden of proof rests squarely on Laisney. There's no proof whatsoever that God has revealed that He would do this under any circuмstances. Since God cannot be bound by impossibility and is more than capable of EASILY bringing the Sacrament to all His elect, this means that God would will to bypass the Sacrament. Laisney's screed against EENS is one of the most intellectually dishonest pieces of pseudo-theological trash that I've ever read.

Cantarella · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2015, 06:19:49 PM »

Annotations on John 3:5 from Rheims, 1582

Quote

Born again of water: As no man can enter into this world nor have this life and being in the same, except he be born of his carnal parents: no more can a man enter into the life and state of grace which is in Christ, or attain to life everlasting, unless he be born and baptized of water and the Holy Ghost. Whereby we see first, his Sacrament to be called our regeneration or second birth, in resect of our natural and carnal which was before. Secondly, that this Sacrament consisteth of an external element of water, and internal virtue of the Holy Spirit: Wherein it excelleth John's Baptism which had the external element, but not the spiritual grace. Thirdly that no man can enter into the kingdom of God, nor into the fellowship of Holy Church, without it.

Whereby the Pelagians and Calvinists be condemned, that promise life everlasting to young children that die without Baptism, all other that think only their faith to serve, or the external element of water superfluous or not necessary: Our Savior words' being plain and general.