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Author Topic: In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney  (Read 8084 times)

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Offline SJB

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In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
« Reply #15 on: June 10, 2013, 10:38:05 AM »
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    Quote from: Stephen Francis
    I'm not even a Catholic yet and I agree.



    Good for you.

    I've been told many times that teaching the strict literal interpretation of the dogma will "scare" potential converts and "turn them off".
     
    As for me, I think the opposite, who would want to belong to a cowardly religion that is worried about scaring away or "turning off" people with the truth? To even consider withholding some truth because it might "scare" converts, is a totally effeminate attitude.



    Orestes Brownson 1874:

    "There can be no more fatal mistake than to soften, liberalize or latitudinize this terrible dogma, "Out of the Church there is no salvation...  If we wish to convert Protestants and infidels we must preach in all its rigor the naked dogma.  Give them the smallest peg or what appears so, not to you, but to them;--- the smallest peg on which to hang a hope of salvation without being in or actually reconciled to the Church by the sacrament of Penance, and all the arguments you can address to them to prove the necessity of being in the Church in order to be saved will have no more effect on them than rain on a duck's back."


    Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #16 on: June 10, 2013, 10:40:15 AM »
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    The dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation really has nothing to do with Father Leonard Feeney.  Based upon Catholic dogma – that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation and that all those who die as non-Catholics are lost..

    To reject this Catholic dogma is to reject Christ Himself.

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5), June 29, 1896: “But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honor God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith.”


    Do you realize that your opponents on this issue don't reject any dogma.


    Then they are not our opponents.

    Those who say there are exceptions to the dogma are in error without any doubt whatsoever, they are our opponents.


    But they are, yet they reject no dogma.


    They are opponents to dogma when they believe there are exceptions implied within the dogma.


    There is no exception to the dogma.


    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."


    Offline SJB

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #17 on: June 10, 2013, 10:47:46 AM »
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Stubborn

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #18 on: June 10, 2013, 11:02:28 AM »
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    The dogma Outside the Catholic Church There is No Salvation really has nothing to do with Father Leonard Feeney.  Based upon Catholic dogma – that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation and that all those who die as non-Catholics are lost..

    To reject this Catholic dogma is to reject Christ Himself.

    Pope Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum (# 5), June 29, 1896: “But he who dissents even in one point from divinely revealed truth absolutely rejects all faith, since he thereby refuses to honor God as the supreme truth and the formal motive of faith.”


    Do you realize that your opponents on this issue don't reject any dogma.


    Then they are not our opponents.

    Those who say there are exceptions to the dogma are in error without any doubt whatsoever, they are our opponents.


    But they are, yet they reject no dogma.


    They are opponents to dogma when they believe there are exceptions implied within the dogma.


    There is no exception to the dogma.



    True, but there are those who make exceptions to the dogma - those who do are opponents of the dogma.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #19 on: June 10, 2013, 11:06:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.



    Assuming your statement is true, then they are opponents of the dogma whether they believe so or not.

    One cannot add anything to the dogma (i.e. make an exception) without changing it's meaning. Dogmas are funny that way.



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #20 on: June 10, 2013, 12:37:12 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.


    Membership in the church is gained through Sacramental water baptism. If someone hasn't received that then they are outside the Church. Baptism of blood and desire are not sacraments and don't incorporate a person into the Church.
    So these two teachings do conflict with the dogma and those people you mentioned do NOT believe the dogma without exception; hence they do not believe in the dogma at all.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline SJB

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #21 on: June 10, 2013, 01:48:23 PM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.



    Assuming your statement is true, then they are opponents of the dogma whether they believe so or not.

    One cannot add anything to the dogma (i.e. make an exception) without changing it's meaning. Dogmas are funny that way.

    It's also funny that no Catholic has ever noticed this ... until you, of course.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline SJB

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #22 on: June 10, 2013, 01:51:26 PM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Quote from: SJB
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.


    Membership in the church is gained through Sacramental water baptism. If someone hasn't received that then they are outside the Church. Baptism of blood and desire are not sacraments and don't incorporate a person into the Church.
    So these two teachings do conflict with the dogma and those people you mentioned do NOT believe the dogma without exception; hence they do not believe in the dogma at all.


    Show me a Catholic authority who teaches this. Please don't refer me to first sources (that you consistently misrepresent), but to an authority who teaches it the way you "understand" it.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil


    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #23 on: June 10, 2013, 01:56:54 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.


    Membership in the church is gained through Sacramental water baptism. If someone hasn't received that then they are outside the Church. Baptism of blood and desire are not sacraments and don't incorporate a person into the Church.
    So these two teachings do conflict with the dogma and those people you mentioned do NOT believe the dogma without exception; hence they do not believe in the dogma at all.


    Show me a Catholic authority who teaches this. Please don't refer me to first sources (that you consistently misrepresent), but to an authority who teaches it the way you "understand" it.




    Please clarify the question
    What type of authority do you want to hear it from.
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."

    Offline SJB

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #24 on: June 10, 2013, 03:01:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
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    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.


    Membership in the church is gained through Sacramental water baptism. If someone hasn't received that then they are outside the Church. Baptism of blood and desire are not sacraments and don't incorporate a person into the Church.
    So these two teachings do conflict with the dogma and those people you mentioned do NOT believe the dogma without exception; hence they do not believe in the dogma at all.


    Show me a Catholic authority who teaches this. Please don't refer me to first sources (that you consistently misrepresent), but to an authority who teaches it the way you "understand" it.

    Please clarify the question
    What type of authority do you want to hear it from.

    Anybody you want, just not first sources.
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Isaac Jogues

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #25 on: June 10, 2013, 03:21:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
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    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.


    Membership in the church is gained through Sacramental water baptism. If someone hasn't received that then they are outside the Church. Baptism of blood and desire are not sacraments and don't incorporate a person into the Church.
    So these two teachings do conflict with the dogma and those people you mentioned do NOT believe the dogma without exception; hence they do not believe in the dogma at all.


    Show me a Catholic authority who teaches this. Please don't refer me to first sources (that you consistently misrepresent), but to an authority who teaches it the way you "understand" it.

    Please clarify the question
    What type of authority do you want to hear it from.

    Anybody you want, just not first sources.


    I'm not sure what you mean by first sources. If that's the Dogma itself then that should be all I need but here
    St. Gregory nαzιanz, 381 AD: “Of those who fail to be baptized some are utterly animal and bestial, according to whether they are foolish or wicked.  This, I think, they must add to their other sins, that they have no reverence for this gift, but regard it as any other gift, to be accepted if given them, or neglected if not given them.  Others know and honor the gift; but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable desire.  Still others are not able to receive it, perhaps because of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance which prevents them from receiving the gift, even if they desire it…
        “If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder, solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism.  But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter?  I cannot see it.  If you prefer, we will put it like this: if in your opinion desire has equal power with actual Baptism, then make the same judgment in regard to glory.  You will then be satisfied to long for glory, as if that longing itself were glory.  Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it?”
    Ecclesiasticus 5:8-9 "8 Delay not to be converted to the Lord, and defer it not from day to day.
    9 For his wrath shall come on a sudden, and in the time of vengeance he will destroy thee."


    Offline Stubborn

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #26 on: June 10, 2013, 03:24:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.



    Assuming your statement is true, then they are opponents of the dogma whether they believe so or not.

    One cannot add anything to the dogma (i.e. make an exception) without changing it's meaning. Dogmas are funny that way.

    It's also funny that no Catholic has ever noticed this ... until you, of course.


    It is funny you make unfounded accusations against Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller - which are, I assume, theologians.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #27 on: June 10, 2013, 03:32:36 PM »
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  • Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
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    Quote from: Isaac Jogues
    Quote from: SJB
    Quote
    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.


    Membership in the church is gained through Sacramental water baptism. If someone hasn't received that then they are outside the Church. Baptism of blood and desire are not sacraments and don't incorporate a person into the Church.
    So these two teachings do conflict with the dogma and those people you mentioned do NOT believe the dogma without exception; hence they do not believe in the dogma at all.


    Show me a Catholic authority who teaches this. Please don't refer me to first sources (that you consistently misrepresent), but to an authority who teaches it the way you "understand" it.

    Please clarify the question
    What type of authority do you want to hear it from.

    Anybody you want, just not first sources.


    I'm not sure what you mean by first sources. If that's the Dogma itself then that should be all I need but here
    St. Gregory nαzιanz, 381 AD: “Of those who fail to be baptized some are utterly animal and bestial, according to whether they are foolish or wicked.  This, I think, they must add to their other sins, that they have no reverence for this gift, but regard it as any other gift, to be accepted if given them, or neglected if not given them.  Others know and honor the gift; but they delay, some out of carelessness, some because of insatiable desire.  Still others are not able to receive it, perhaps because of infancy, or some perfectly involuntary circuмstance which prevents them from receiving the gift, even if they desire it…
        “If you were able to judge a man who intends to commit murder, solely by his intention and without any act of murder, then you could likewise reckon as baptized one who desired Baptism, without having received Baptism.  But, since you cannot do the former, how can you do the latter?  I cannot see it.  If you prefer, we will put it like this: if in your opinion desire has equal power with actual Baptism, then make the same judgment in regard to glory.  You will then be satisfied to long for glory, as if that longing itself were glory.  Do you suffer any damage by not attaining the actual glory, as long as you have a desire for it?”



    I thought he meant the first source, which, of course, was Our Lord - Jesus answered: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. - John 3:5

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline SJB

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #28 on: June 10, 2013, 03:56:18 PM »
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    Is there an argument here? This is confusing.
    Those who believe the dogma as it was once declared are Catholic. Those who do not are not Catholic and are the opponents of those who do believe it.


    The dogma of EENS is in no way in conflict with Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller teach Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood. They also believe EENS is a dogma without exceptions.



    Assuming your statement is true, then they are opponents of the dogma whether they believe so or not.

    One cannot add anything to the dogma (i.e. make an exception) without changing it's meaning. Dogmas are funny that way.

    It's also funny that no Catholic has ever noticed this ... until you, of course.


    It is funny you make unfounded accusations against Bishop George Hay, Orestes Brownson and Fr. Mueller - which are, I assume, theologians.  

    If you don't know who they are, how do you know what they teach?
    It would be comparatively easy for us to be holy if only we could always see the character of our neighbours either in soft shade or with the kindly deceits of moonlight upon them. Of course, we are not to grow blind to evil

    Offline Stubborn

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    In Defense of Father Leonard Feeney
    « Reply #29 on: June 10, 2013, 03:59:00 PM »
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  • Quote from: SJB

    If you don't know who they are, how do you know what they teach?


    I never said that I knew what they taught, only that if they taught exceptions to the dogma then they were opponents of the dogma.

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse