Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn  (Read 23143 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nadieimportante

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 771
  • Reputation: +496/-0
  • Gender: Male
Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
« Reply #300 on: January 18, 2012, 12:28:44 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Gregory I
    OH!

    I thought for some reason of something else....


    Do you agree that those errors are serious and dangerous to faith?


    Why are you asking people questions when you won't answer questions directed at you?

    Do you believe that a Pagan or a Jew who disbelieves in Christ can have 'Baptism of Desire'?

    This is the third time now.


    No.

    But if you read my recent posts they lay out what I believe, and why I do not want to waste my time or yours debating your Feeneyite errors.


    Finding anything on CI is exasperating. Can you repeat what you believe that's "in your recent" posts?
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Gregory I

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1542
    • Reputation: +659/-108
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #301 on: January 18, 2012, 02:14:48 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Gregory I
    OH!

    I thought for some reason of something else....


    Do you agree that those errors are serious and dangerous to faith?


    I believe it is RASH to say the CCT is full of errors, but that does not mean it is false. I myself have not bothered to take a count. I see none, or nothing that can't be reconciled with the beliefs of the Fathers anyhow.

    As far as St. Thomas, it is calumny to condemn one as a heretic whom the Church has not condemned for 800 years.


    Offline Roman Catholic

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2679
    • Reputation: +397/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #302 on: January 18, 2012, 05:30:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Gregory I
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Gregory I
    OH!

    I thought for some reason of something else....


    Do you agree that those errors are serious and dangerous to faith?


    I believe it is RASH to say the CCT is full of errors, but that does not mean it is false. I myself have not bothered to take a count. I see none, or nothing that can't be reconciled with the beliefs of the Fathers anyhow.

    As far as St. Thomas, it is calumny to condemn one as a heretic whom the Church has not condemned for 800 years.



    It is more than just RASH. It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error.

    Consider what flows from that way of thinking about Holy Church's authoritative declarations and explicit approvals, nay commands, to teach the faithful from it. Just think about it!

    It is a very serious matter for one to be trying to convince others of that error as well as holding it himself.

    Did you read this this?....
    The Catechism of the Council of Trent

    Excerpted from the:

    PREFACE
    ORIGIN OF THE ROMAN CATECHISM
    JOHN A. MCHUGH, O. P.
    CHARLES J. CALLAN, O. P.

    Meanwhile Pius IV died and was succeeded on January 17, 1566, by Pius V. One of the first acts of the new
    Pontiff was to appoint a number of expert theological revisers to examine every statement in the Catechismfrom the viewpoint of doctrine. Chief among these revisers were Cardinal Sirlet and the two Dominicans,
    Thomas Manriquez and Eustachius Locatelli. By July of that year the work on the Catechism was finished. But
    it was not until the close of the year that it appeared under the title, Catechismus ex decreto Concilii Tridentini
    ad Parochos Pii V Pont. Max. jussu editus.
    AUTHORITY AND EXCELLENCE OF THE ROMAN CATECHISM

    The Roman Catechism is unlike any other summary of Christian doctrine, not only because it is intended for the
    use of priests in their preaching, but also because it enjoys a unique authority among manuals. In the first place,
    as already explained, it was issued by the express command of the Ecuмenical Council of Trent, which also
    ordered that it be translated into the vernacular of different nations to be used as a standard source for
    preaching. Moreover it subsequently received the unqualified approval of many Sovereign Pontiffs. Not to
    speak of Pius IV who did so much to bring the work to completion, and of St. Pius V under whom it was
    finished, published and repeatedly commended, Gregory XIII, as Possevino testifies, so highly esteemed it that
    he desired even books of Canon Law to be written in accordance with its contents.

    In his Bull of June 14, 1761,
    Clement XIII said that the Catechism contains a clear explanation of all that is necessary for salvation and
    useful for the faithful, that it was composed with great care and industry and has been highly praised by all, that
    by it in former times the faith was strengthened, and that no other catechism can be compared with it. He
    concluded then, that the Roman Pontiffs offered this work to pastors as a norm of Catholic teaching and
    discipline so that there might be uniformity and harmony in the instructions of all.


    Nor have the Sovereign
    Pontiffs in our own days been less laudatory of the Catechism. Pope Leo XIII, in an Encyclical Letter of
    September 8, 1899
    , to the Bishops and clergy of France, recommended two books which all seminarians should
    possess and constantly read and study, namely, the Summa Theologica of St. Thomas and "that golden book,"
    the Catechismus ad Parochos. Regarding the latter work he wrote: "This work is remarkable at once for the
    richness and exactness of its doctrine, and for the elegance of its style; it is a precious summary of all theology,
    both dogmatic and moral. He who understands it well, will have always at his service those aids by which a
    priest is enabled to preach with fruit, to acquit himself worthily of the important ministry of the confessional
    and of the direction of souls, and will be in a position to refute the objections of unbelievers."


    Likewise Pius X in his Encyclical Acerbo nimis of April 15, 1905, declared that adults, no less than children,
    need religious instruction, especially in these days. And hence he prescribed that pastors and all who have care
    of souls should give catechetical instruction to the faithful in simple language, and in a way suited to the
    capacity of their hearers, and that for this purpose they should use the Catechism of the Council of Trent
    Still
    more recently, on February 14, 1921, speaking in the name of Benedict XV, Cardinal Gasparri, Papal Secretary
    of State, thus wrote to the Archbishop of New York relative to the latter's Program for A Parochial Course of
    Doctrinal Instructions, based on the Catechism: "It is superfluous to add that the value of the work is enhanced
    by the fact that it has been planned and executed in perfect harmony with the admirable Catechism of the
    Council of Trent."
    Besides the Supreme Pontiffs who have extolled and recommended the Catechism, so many Councils have
    enjoined its use that it would be impossible here to enumerate them all. Within a few years after its first
    appearance great numbers of provincial and diocesan synods had already made its use obligatory. Of these the
    Preface to the Paris edition of 1893 mentions eighteen held before the year 1595. In five different Councils
    convened at Milan St. Charles Borromeo ordered that the Catechism should be studied in seminaries, discussed
    27
    in the conferences of the clergy, and explained by pastors to their people on occasion of the administration of
    the Sacraments. In short, synods repeatedly prescribed that the clergy should make such frequent use of the
    Catechism as not only to be thoroughly familiar with its contents, but almost have it by heart.
    In addition to Popes, and Councils, many Cardinals, Bishops and other ecclesiastics, distinguished for their
    learning and sanctity, vied with one another in eulogizing the Catechism of Trent. Among other things they
    have said that not since the days of the Apostles has there been produced in a single volume so complete and
    practical a summary of Christian doctrine as this Catechism, and that, after the Sacred Scriptures, there is no
    work that can be read with greater safety and profit.
    In particular, Cardinal Valerius, the friend of St. Charles Borromeo, wrote of the Catechism: "This work
    contains all that is needful for the instruction of the faithful; and it is written with such order, clearness and
    majesty that through it we seem to hear holy Mother the Church herself, taught by the Holy Ghost, speaking to
    us.... It was composed by order of the Fathers of Trent under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, and was
    published by the authority of the Vicar of Christ."Salmanticenses, the great Carmelite commentators on St. Thomas, paid the following high tribute to the
    Catechism: "The authority of this Catechism has always been of the greatest in the Church, because it was
    composed by the command of the Council of Trent, because its authors were men of highest learning, and
    because it was approved only after the severest scrutiny by Popes Pius V and Gregory XIII, and has been
    recommended in nearly all the Councils that have been held since the Council of Trent."
    Antonio Possevino, an illustrious Jesuit, and the preceptor of St. Francis de Sales, said: "The Catechism of the
    Council of Trent was inspired by the Holy Ghost."
    In his immortal Apologia Cardinal Newman writes: "The Catechism of the Council of Trent was drawn up for
    the express purpose of providing preachers with subjects for their sermons; and, as my whole work has been a
    defense of myself, I may here say that I rarely preach a sermon but I go to this beautiful and complete
    Catechism to get both my matter and my doctrine."
    "Its merits," says Dr. Donovan, "have been recognized by the universal Church. The first rank which has been
    awarded the Imitation among spiritual books, has been unanimously given to the Roman Catechism as a
    compendium of Catholic theology. It was the result of the aggregate labors of the most distinguished of the
    Fathers of Trent, . . . and is therefore stamped with the impress of superior worth."
    Doctor John Hogan, the present Rector of the Irish College in Rome, writes thus: "The Roman Catechism is a
    work of exceptional authority. At the very least it has the same authority as a dogmatic Encyclical, -- it is an
    authoritative exposition of Catholic doctrine given forth, and guaranteed to be orthodox by the Catholic Church
    and her supreme head on earth. The compilation of it was the work of various individuals; but the result of their
    combined labors was accepted by the Church as a precious abridgment of dogmatic and moral theology.
    Official docuмents have occasionally been issued by Popes to explain certain points of Catholic teaching to
    individuals, or to local Christian communities; whereas the Roman Catechism comprises practically the whole
    body of Christian doctrine, and is addressed to the whole Church. Its teaching is not infallible; but it holds a
    place between approved catechisms and what is de tide."
    We are enabled to realize from the foregoing testimonies how invaluable is the treasure we possess in the
    Tridentine Catechism. It is a Vade Mecuм for every priest and ecclesiastical student. In it the latter will find a
    recapitulation of all the more important and necessary doctrines he has learned throughout his theological
    course; while to the priest it is not only a review of his former studies, but an ever-present and reliable guide in
    his work as pastor, preacher, counselor, and spiritual director of souls. Moreover, to the educated layman,
    whether Catholic or non-Catholic, who desires to study an authoritative statement of Catholic doctrine, no better
    book could be recommended than this official manual; for in its pages will be found the whole substance of
    Catholic doctrine and practice, arranged in order, expounded with perspicuity, and sustained by argument at
    once convincing and persuasive.

    Finally, it can be said without fear of exaggeration that there is no single-volume work which so combines
    solidity of doctrine and practical usefulness with unction of treatment as does this truly marvelous Catechism.
    From beginning to end it not only reflects the light of faith, but it also radiates, to an unwonted degree, the
    warmth of devotion and piety. In its exposition of the Creed and the Sacraments, while dealing with the
    profoundest mysteries, it is full of thoughts and reflections the most fervent and inspiring. The part on the
    Decalogue, which might well be called a treatise on ascetical theology, teaches us in words burning with zeal
    both what we are to avoid and what we are to do to keep the Commandments of God. In the fourth, and last part
    o this beautiful work we have what is doubtless the most sublime and heavenly exposition of the doctrine of
    prayer ever written.
    The Roman Catechism is, therefore, a handbook of dogmatic and moral theology, a confessor's guide, a book of
    exposition for the preacher, and a choice directory of the spiritual life for pastor and flock alike.

    Offline Roman Catholic

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2679
    • Reputation: +397/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #303 on: January 18, 2012, 06:11:25 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Augustinian
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: Gregory I
    OH!

    I thought for some reason of something else....


    Do you agree that those errors are serious and dangerous to faith?


    Why are you asking people questions when you won't answer questions directed at you?

    Do you believe that a Pagan or a Jew who disbelieves in Christ can have 'Baptism of Desire'?

    This is the third time now.


    No.

    But if you read my recent posts they lay out what I believe, and why I do not want to waste my time or yours debating your Feeneyite errors.


    Finding anything on CI is exasperating. Can you repeat what you believe that's "in your recent" posts?


    No thanks, I explained earlier that (at least for the time being) I am done with discussing Feeneyism, Semi-Feeneyism, and all other variants on the Feeneyite error, whatever names they go by.


    Offline nadieimportante

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 771
    • Reputation: +496/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #304 on: January 18, 2012, 08:20:19 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
      It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error.


    Strawman.

    Your focusing on this point that  "It is an error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error", is irrelevent, it's a total strawman.

    One can't contradict clear dogmas and even in this case even contradict what the CCT itself says clearly, with one unclear line from the CCT. The way Catholics know thruth is by interpreting unclear quotes according to defined clear dogmas. If the dogmas failed to define, then they have failed in their intended purpose and are useless. We don't interpret infallible dogmas by fallible unclear interpretations. If we did, then all dogmas are useless.

    THE CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

    In the entire Catechism of the Council of Trent there is no mention at all of the so-called terms “three baptisms,” or “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood,” nor is there any clear statement that one can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism. What we find, rather, is only one unclear paragraph which says “should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness, with which the BODers try to re-interpretdogmas on EENS & baptism and even re-interpret all the clear teachings of the CCT itself!

    Most importantly, the Catechism of Trent makes statement after statement clearly and unambiguously teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for all for salvation with no exceptions, thereby repeatedly exluding any idea of salvation without water baptism.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Comparisons among the Sacraments, p. 154: “Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same.
         “Among them three are said to be necessary beyond the rest, although in all three this necessity is not of the same kind.  The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Savior has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

         This means that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely and universally necessary for salvation with no exceptions!  It excludes any idea of salvation without water baptism.  It also means that John 3:5 is understood literally.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Necessity of Baptism, pp. 176-177: “If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that THE LAW OF BAPTISM, AS ESTABLISHED BY OUR LORD, EXTENDS TO ALL, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction.  Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

         This clearly means that no one can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism and that John 3:5 is literal with no exceptions!

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Definition of Baptism, p. 163: “Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5); and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life (Eph. 5:26).  Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word.”

         The Catechism of Trent also teaches that if there is danger of death for an adult, Baptism must not be deferred.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, In Case of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once, p. 180: “Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptized is well instructed in the mysteries of faith.”

       
    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
    Quote
    the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”


    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”
         
    Notice that the Catechism teaches that water is “within the reach of all,” a phrase which excludes the very notion of baptism of desire – that water is not within the reach of all.  Also notice that the Catechism declares that the Sacrament is necessary for all for salvation!  This excludes any notion of salvation without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Thus, the Catechism of Trent teaches repeatedly and unambiguously that it is the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for all for salvation.  All of this is clearly contrary to the theories of baptism of desire and baptism of blood.

         Moreover, the Catechism also teaches that Christians are distinguished from non-Christians by the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Second Effect: Sacramental Character, p. 159: “In the character impressed by Baptism, both effects are exemplified.  By it we are qualified to receive the other Sacraments, and the Christian is distinguished from those who do not profess the faith.”

         Those who assert that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for all for salvation (e.g., all those who believe in “baptism of desire”) contradict the very teaching of the Catechism of Trent.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline Roman Catholic

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2679
    • Reputation: +397/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #305 on: January 18, 2012, 08:27:05 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
      It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error.


    Strawman.

    Your focusing on this point that  "It is an errorerror to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error", is irrelevent, it's a total strawman.

    One can't contradict clear dogmas and even in this case even contradict what the CCT itself says clearly, with one unclear line from the CCT. The way Catholics know thruth is by interpreting unclear quotes according to defined clear dogmas. If the dogmas failed to define, then they have failed in their intended purpose and are useless. We don't interpret infallible dogmas by fallible comments. If we did, then all dogmas are useless.

    THE CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

    In the entire Catechism of the Council of Trent there is no mention at all of the so-called terms “three baptisms,” or “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood,” nor is there any clear statement that one can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism. What we find, rather, is only one unclear paragraph which says “should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness, with which the BODers try to re-interpretdogmas on EENS & baptism and even re-interpret all the clear teachings of the CCT itself!

    Most importantly, the Catechism of Trent makes statement after statement clearly and unambiguously teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for all for salvation with no exceptions, thereby repeatedly exluding any idea of salvation without water baptism.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Comparisons among the Sacraments, p. 154: “Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same.
         “Among them three are said to be necessary beyond the rest, although in all three this necessity is not of the same kind.  The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Savior has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

         This means that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely and universally necessary for salvation with no exceptions!  It excludes any idea of salvation without water baptism.  It also means that John 3:5 is understood literally.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Necessity of Baptism, pp. 176-177: “If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that THE LAW OF BAPTISM, AS ESTABLISHED BY OUR LORD, EXTENDS TO ALL, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction.  Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

         This clearly means that no one can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism and that John 3:5 is literal with no exceptions!

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Definition of Baptism, p. 163: “Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5); and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life (Eph. 5:26).  Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word.”

         The Catechism of Trent also teaches that if there is danger of death for an adult, Baptism must not be deferred.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, In Case of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once, p. 180: “Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptized is well instructed in the mysteries of faith.”

       
    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
    Quote
    the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”


    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”
         
    Notice that the Catechism teaches that water is “within the reach of all,” a phrase which excludes the very notion of baptism of desire – that water is not within the reach of all.  Also notice that the Catechism declares that the Sacrament is necessary for all for salvation!  This excludes any notion of salvation without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Thus, the Catechism of Trent teaches repeatedly and unambiguously that it is the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for all for salvation.  All of this is clearly contrary to the theories of baptism of desire and baptism of blood.

         Moreover, the Catechism also teaches that Christians are distinguished from non-Christians by the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Second Effect: Sacramental Character, p. 159: “In the character impressed by Baptism, both effects are exemplified.  By it we are qualified to receive the other Sacraments, and the Christian is distinguished from those who do not profess the faith.”

         Those who assert that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for all for salvation (e.g., all those who believe in “baptism of desire”) contradict the very teaching of the Catechism of Trent.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”


     :sleep:

    Carry on F-trooper.

    Offline nadieimportante

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 771
    • Reputation: +496/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #306 on: January 18, 2012, 08:29:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    Nadie wrote above and highlights again: Those who assert that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for all for salvation (e.g., all those who believe in “baptism of desire”) contradict the very teaching of the Catechism of Trent.


    Yet another contradiction to add to this thread on "Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn !".
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline nadieimportante

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 771
    • Reputation: +496/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #307 on: January 18, 2012, 08:40:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Roman Catholic

    Carry on F-trooper.


    Thanks for the opening, for bringing up that additional contradiction. Keep them coming. You are serving as God's prod, to get all us "F-troopers" to post.

    God Bless,
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine


    Offline Roman Catholic

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2679
    • Reputation: +397/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #308 on: January 18, 2012, 08:50:40 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Roman Catholic

    Carry on F-trooper.


    Thanks for the opening, for bringing up that additional contradiction. Keep them coming. You are serving as God's prod, to get all us "F-troopers" to post.

    God Bless,



    I wish you the best, Private, and hope that someday in the future you reject the doctines of F-troop for those of sound Catholicism.

    Offline nadieimportante

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 771
    • Reputation: +496/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #309 on: January 18, 2012, 09:26:53 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Roman Catholic

    Carry on F-trooper.


    Thanks for the opening, for bringing up that additional contradiction. Keep them coming. You are serving as God's prod, to get all us "F-troopers" to post.

    God Bless,



    I wish you the best, Private, and hope that someday in the future you reject the doctines of F-troop for those of sound Catholicism.


    When I said "Thanks for the opening, for bringing up that additional contradiction. Keep them coming. ", I was refering to your long posting with Catholic sources that started with "It is more than just RASH. It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error".

    When you write personal observations with no sources or definition like this above "hope that someday in the future you reject the doctines of F-troop for those of sound Catholicism", it serves no purpose, and is useless. You should instead post exactly what doctrines I reject, and what this "sound" Catholicism is.
    Spelling things out clearly is vital in the search for truth.


     
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine

    Offline Roman Catholic

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2679
    • Reputation: +397/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #310 on: January 19, 2012, 01:30:43 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Roman Catholic
    Quote from: nadieimportante
    Quote from: Roman Catholic

    Carry on F-trooper.


    Thanks for the opening, for bringing up that additional contradiction. Keep them coming. You are serving as God's prod, to get all us "F-troopers" to post.

    God Bless,



    I wish you the best, Private, and hope that someday in the future you reject the doctines of F-troop for those of sound Catholicism.


    When I said "Thanks for the opening, for bringing up that additional contradiction. Keep them coming. ", I was refering to your long posting with Catholic sources that started with "It is more than just RASH. It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error".

    When you write personal observations with no sources or definition like this above "hope that someday in the future you reject the doctines of F-troop for those of sound Catholicism", it serves no purpose, and is useless. You should instead post exactly what doctrines I reject, and what this "sound" Catholicism is.
    Spelling things out clearly is vital in the search for truth.


     


    You are not searching for the truth; you think it is found in the doctrines of F-Troop. And in the fashion of a bumbling F-Trooper, you are here to try to teach the F-troop doctines.

    I have told you I am a Roman Catholic and I am not interested in discussing the Feeneyite doctrines that you hold. I am not interested in discussing them with you or any of the other F-Troopers.


    Offline Roman Catholic

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2679
    • Reputation: +397/-1
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #311 on: January 19, 2012, 04:22:37 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: nadieimportante


    I was refering to your long posting with Catholic sources that started with "It is more than just RASH. It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error".

     


    On that subject just read what the popes declared as quoted in the "long posting." The conclusion I arrived at is obvious. If you can't grasp the obvious; I can't help you -- sorry trooper.

    Offline nadieimportante

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 771
    • Reputation: +496/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Implicit Faith - Defying the Law of Non-contradiction at Every Turn
    « Reply #312 on: January 19, 2012, 08:59:10 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Roman Catholic
      It is a false and heretical error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error.


    Strawman.

    Your focusing on this point that  "It is an error to hold that the Catechism of The Council of Trent is in error", is irrelevent, it's a total strawman.

    One can't contradict clear dogmas and even in this case even contradict what the CCT itself says clearly, with one unclear line from the CCT. The way Catholics know thruth is by interpreting unclear quotes according to defined clear dogmas. If the dogmas failed to define, then they have failed in their intended purpose and are useless. We don't interpret infallible dogmas by fallible unclear interpretations. If we did, then all dogmas are useless.

    THE CATECHISM OF THE COUNCIL OF TRENT

    In the entire Catechism of the Council of Trent there is no mention at all of the so-called terms “three baptisms,” or “baptism of desire” or “baptism of blood,” nor is there any clear statement that one can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism. What we find, rather, is only one unclear paragraph which says “should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness, with which the BODers try to re-interpretdogmas on EENS & baptism and even re-interpret all the clear teachings of the CCT itself!

    Most importantly, the Catechism of Trent makes statement after statement clearly and unambiguously teaching that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely necessary for all for salvation with no exceptions, thereby repeatedly exluding any idea of salvation without water baptism.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Comparisons among the Sacraments, p. 154: “Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same.
         “Among them three are said to be necessary beyond the rest, although in all three this necessity is not of the same kind.  The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Savior has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

         This means that the Sacrament of Baptism is absolutely and universally necessary for salvation with no exceptions!  It excludes any idea of salvation without water baptism.  It also means that John 3:5 is understood literally.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Necessity of Baptism, pp. 176-177: “If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that THE LAW OF BAPTISM, AS ESTABLISHED BY OUR LORD, EXTENDS TO ALL, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction.  Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

         This clearly means that no one can be saved without the Sacrament of Baptism and that John 3:5 is literal with no exceptions!

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Definition of Baptism, p. 163: “Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5); and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life (Eph. 5:26).  Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word.”

         The Catechism of Trent also teaches that if there is danger of death for an adult, Baptism must not be deferred.  

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, In Case of Necessity Adults May Be Baptized At Once, p. 180: “Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptized is well instructed in the mysteries of faith.”

       
    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost,
    Quote
    the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”


    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”
         
    Notice that the Catechism teaches that water is “within the reach of all,” a phrase which excludes the very notion of baptism of desire – that water is not within the reach of all.  Also notice that the Catechism declares that the Sacrament is necessary for all for salvation!  This excludes any notion of salvation without the Sacrament of Baptism.  Thus, the Catechism of Trent teaches repeatedly and unambiguously that it is the teaching of Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church that the Sacrament of Baptism is necessary for all for salvation.  All of this is clearly contrary to the theories of baptism of desire and baptism of blood.

         Moreover, the Catechism also teaches that Christians are distinguished from non-Christians by the Sacrament of Baptism.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Second Effect: Sacramental Character, p. 159: “In the character impressed by Baptism, both effects are exemplified.  By it we are qualified to receive the other Sacraments, and the Christian is distinguished from those who do not profess the faith.”

         Those who assert that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary for all for salvation (e.g., all those who believe in “baptism of desire”) contradict the very teaching of the Catechism of Trent.

    Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”
    "Wrong is wrong even if everyone is doing it.
     Right is right even if no one is doing it." - Saint Augustine