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Author Topic: Implicit BOD  (Read 4422 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Implicit BOD
« on: September 15, 2020, 08:27:08 AM »
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  • Another thread or topic got sidetracked with a discussion of BOD. During that thread, Sean posted the following from St. Alphonsus on baptism of desire:



    Quote
    "But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.

    I underlined the part of the quote, "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," and "it is called 'of wind[flaminis] because it takes place by impulse of the Holy Ghost," and posed this question(s): 


    Quote
    A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

    Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?


    I disagree with St. Alphonsus regarding salvation by implicit BOD after the promulgation of the Gospel (i.e. under the New Covenant) and wanted to lay a foundation for a discussion on that point by getting some input on how the OT saints were justified. 

    Stubborn responded to my question as follows:


    Quote
    By worshiping God, believing in a redeemer to come and living a moral life.

    I'll wait a bit and see if someone would also offer an opinion (or even better, quote some authority) on how the OT saints were justified.

    Thanks,

    DR
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #1 on: September 15, 2020, 09:26:59 AM »
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  • I think that two different considerations are typically conflated in this notion of "implicit" Baptism of Desire.

    There's the idea of implicit desire for Baptism proper and then idea of implicit faith.

    So, for instance, I am converted to the Church and want to become a Catholic, but I do not form the explicit intention "I desire to be Baptized."  One can see the DESIRE here to be implicit in the desire to become a Catholic.

    Then there's the notion of implicit faith, which many have promoted.  "I am a well-meaning pagan who follow my lights regarding the natural law."

    So this discussion gets confused the the degrees of "implicit"-ness, i.e. the degrees of separation from the explicit.

    It's absolutely indisputed that supernatural faith is required for salvation.  Lots of modern BoDers focus on the "desire" (an act of the will) but ignore the intellectual requirements for salvation, as if one can will to have supernatural faith without believing anything.  What's at issue is what are the requirements to have supernatural faith.  Can faith be implicit in my desire to know God?  All theologians agree that SOME things must be explicitly believed, with the vast majority (and absolute unanimity before the year 1600) holding that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In other words, no Jєω, Muslim, or any kind of infidel can possibly be saved.

    This was believed by all Catholics everywhere for the first 1600 years of Church history, meeting the criteria for infallible dogma based on the OUM.  Yet some Jesuits felt they were permitted to theorize that these were not necessary and that it was sufficient for supernatural faith just to believe in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  This was motivated by the desire to extend the possibility of salvation to infidels.

    Of course, recent Novus Ordo developments hold that atheists can be saved without ANY explicit belief whatsoever.

    I hold that Rewarder God theory is objectively heretical based on the teachings of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Those who lived before Vatican II might be excused of formal heresy because the OUM had not clearly been defined, but this notion must now be rejected as absolutely heretical.


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #2 on: September 15, 2020, 10:04:50 AM »
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  • You keeping digging a bigger hole in an attempt to justify yourself.

    There was a time when salvation wasn't a thing? Please.

    And to be saved, man always had to be justified by the grace of God.

    Let's take this elsewhere. I'll start a new thread.

    I'll end this here with: Father Cekada, pray for us.
    There was no salvation until Christ died on the cross for our sins. 

    So no, once again, the Old Testament Fathers were not saved by BOD. They were not saved at all until Christ descended into Hell and freed them. I haven't been able to find anywhere where the Church teaches who went into the Limbo of the Fathers and who was damned to Gehenna instead, other than vague references to the "righteous dead", but their salvation centuries after death had nothing to do with any sort of desire for a sacrament that didn't yet exist. 

    Offline LeDeg

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #3 on: September 15, 2020, 10:45:48 AM »
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  • Lad, refresh my memory. What is the docuмent from Benedict XIV (?) in 1703 that ruled against the God that rewards principle the Jesuits were pushing?
    "You must train harder than the enemy who is trying to kill you. You will get all the rest you need in the grave."- Leon Degrelle

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #4 on: September 15, 2020, 11:19:22 AM »
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  • Lad, refresh my memory. What is the docuмent from Benedict XIV (?) in 1703 that ruled against the God that rewards principle the Jesuits were pushing?

    I need to dig it up again.  I posted it some time ago on a different thread but don't have it handy again.

    One could argue that it's disciplinary, but there's doctrine embedded in it, saying that souls cannot be baptized without knowing explicitly the truths which are necessary by necessity of means for salvation.  So there's a doctrinal principle which holds that knowledge of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation are necessary for salvation.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #5 on: September 15, 2020, 11:21:25 AM »
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  • There was no salvation until Christ died on the cross for our sins.

    So no, once again, the Old Testament Fathers were not saved by BOD. They were not saved at all until Christ descended into Hell and freed them. I haven't been able to find anywhere where the Church teaches who went into the Limbo of the Fathers and who was damned to Gehenna instead, other than vague references to the "righteous dead", but their salvation centuries after death had nothing to do with any sort of desire for a sacrament that didn't yet exist.

    Interesting words of St. Thomas Aquinas on the effect of circuмcision during the Old Law:

    Tertia Pars (Q. 70, Art. 4):



    Article 4. Whether circuмcision bestowed sanctifying grace?

    Objection 1. It seems that circuмcision did not bestow sanctifying grace. For the Apostle says (Galatians 2:21): "If justice be by the Law, then Christ died in vain," i.e. without cause. But circuмcision was an obligation imposed by the Law, according to Galatians 5:3: "I testify . . . to every man circuмcising himself, that ne is a debtor to do the whole law." Therefore, if justice be by circuмcision, "Christ died in vain," i.e. without cause. But this cannot be allowed. Therefore circuмcision did not confer grace whereby the sinner is made righteous.

    Objection 2. Further, before the institution of circuмcision faith alone sufficed for justification; hence Gregory says (Moral. iv): "Faith alone did of old in behalf of infants that for which the water of Baptism avails with us." But faith has lost nothing of its strength through the commandment of circuмcision. Therefore faith alone justified little ones, and not circuмcision.

    Objection 3. Further, we read (Joshua 5:5-6) that "the people that were born in the desert, during the forty years . . . were uncircuмcised." If, therefore, original sin was taken away by circuмcision, it seems that all who died in the desert, both little children and adults, were lost. And the same argument avails in regard to those who died before the eighth day, which was that of circuмcision, which day could nol be anticipated, as stated above (Article 3, Reply to Objection 3).

    Objection 4. Further, nothing but sin closes the entrance to the heavenly kingdom. But before the Passion the entrance to the heavenly kingdom was closed to the circuмcised. Therefore men were not justified from sin by circuмcision.

    Objection 5. Further, original sin is not remitted without actual sin being remitted also: because "it is wicked to hope for half forgiveness from God," as Augustine says (De Vera et Falsa Poenit. ix). But we read nowhere of circuмcision as remitting actual sin. Therefore neither did it remit original sin.

    On the contrary, Augustine says, writing to Valerius in answer to Julian (De Nup. et Concup. ii): "From the time that circuмcision was instituted among God's people, as 'a seal of the justice of the faith,' it availed little children unto sanctification by cleansing them from the original and bygone sin; just as Baptism also from the time of its institution began to avail unto the renewal of man."

    I answer that, All are agreed in saying that original sin was remitted in circuмcision. But some said that no grace was conferred, and that the only effect was to remit sin. The Master holds this opinion (Sent. iv, D, 1), and in a gloss on Romans 4:11. But this is impossible, since guilt is not remitted except by grace, according to Romans 3:2: "Being justified freely by His grace," etc.

    Wherefore others said that grace was bestowed by circuмcision, as to that effect which is the remission of guilt, but not as to its positive effects; lest they should be compelled to say that the grace bestowed in circuмcision sufficed for the fulfilling of the precepts of the Law, and that, consequently, the coming of Christ was unnecessary. But neither can this opinion stand. First, because by circuмcision children. received the power of obtaining glory at the allotted time, which is the last positive effect of grace. Secondly, because, in the order of the formal cause, positive effects naturally precede those that denote privation, although it is the reverse in the order of the material cause: since a form does not remove a privation save by informing the subject.

    Consequently, others said that grace was conferred in circuмcision, also as a particular positive effect consisting in being made worthy of eternal life; but not as to all its effects, for it did not suffice for the repression of the concupiscence of the fomes, nor again for the fulfilment of the precepts of the Law. And this was my opinion at one time (Sent. iv, D, 1; 2, 4). But if one consider the matter carefully, it is clear that this is not true. Because the least grace can resist any degree of concupiscence, and avoid every mortal sin, that is committed in transgressing the precepts of the Law; for the smallest degree of charity loves God more than cupidity loves "thousands of gold and silver" (Psalm 118:72).

    We must say, therefore, that grace was bestowed in circuмcision as to all the effects of grace, but not as in Baptism. Because in Baptism grace is bestowed by the very power of Baptism itself, which power Baptism has as the instrument of Christ's Passion already consummated. Whereas circuмcision bestowed grace, inasmuch as it was a sign of faith in Christ's future Passion: so that the man who was circuмcised, professed to embrace that faith; whether, being an adult, he made profession for himself, or, being a child, someone else made profession for him. Hence, too, the Apostle says (Romans 4:11), that Abraham "received the sign of circuмcision, a seal of the justice of the faith": because, to wit, justice was of faith signified: not of circuмcision signifying. And since Baptism operates instrumentally by the power of Christ's Passion, whereas circuмcision does not, therefore Baptism imprints a character that incorporates man in Christ, and bestows grace more copiously than does circuмcision; since greater is the effect of a thing already present, than of the hope thereof.


    Reply to Objection 1. This argument would prove if justice were of circuмcision otherwise than through faith in Christ's Passion.

    Reply to Objection 2. Just as before the institution of circuмcision, faith in Christ to come justified both children and adults, so, too, after its institution. But before, there was no need of a sign expressive of this faith; because as yet believers had not begun to be united together apart from unbelievers for the worship of one God. It is probable, however, that parents who were believers offered up some prayers to God for their children, especially if these were in any danger. Or bestowed some blessing on them, as a "seal of faith"; just as the adults offered prayers and sacrifices for themselves.

    Reply to Objection 3. There was an excuse for the people in the desert failing to fulfill the precept of circuмcision, both because they knew not when the camp was removed, and because, as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iv) they needed no distinctive sign while they dwelt apart from other nations. Nevertheless, as Augustine says (QQ. in Josue vi), those were guilty of disobedience who failed to obey through contempt.

    It seems, however, that none of the uncircuмcised died in the desert, for it is written (Psalm 104:37): "There was not among their tribes one that was feeble": and that those alone died in the desert, who had been circuмcised in Egypt. If, however, some of the uncircuмcised did die there, the same applies to them as to those who died before the institution of circuмcision. And this applies also to those children who, at the time of the Law, died before the eighth day.

    Reply to Objection 4. Original sin was taken away in circuмcision, in regard to the person; but on the part of the entire nature, there remained the obstacle to the entrance of the kingdom of heaven, which obstacle was removed by Christ's Passion. Consequently, before Christ's Passion not even Baptism gave entrance to the kingdom. But were circuмcision to avail after Christ's Passion, it would give entrance to the kingdom.

    Reply to Objection 5. When adults were circuмcised, they received remission not only of original, but also of actual sin: yet not so as to be delivered from all debt of punishment, as in Baptism, in which grace is conferred more copiously.
    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #6 on: September 15, 2020, 11:48:46 AM »
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  • I think that two different considerations are typically conflated in this notion of "implicit" Baptism of Desire.

    There's the idea of implicit desire for Baptism proper and then idea of implicit faith.

    So, for instance, I am converted to the Church and want to become a Catholic, but I do not form the explicit intention "I desire to be Baptized."  One can see the DESIRE here to be implicit in the desire to become a Catholic.

    Then there's the notion of implicit faith, which many have promoted.  "I am a well-meaning pagan who follow my lights regarding the natural law."

    So this discussion gets confused the the degrees of "implicit"-ness, i.e. the degrees of separation from the explicit.

    It's absolutely indisputed that supernatural faith is required for salvation.  Lots of modern BoDers focus on the "desire" (an act of the will) but ignore the intellectual requirements for salvation, as if one can will to have supernatural faith without believing anything.  What's at issue is what are the requirements to have supernatural faith.  Can faith be implicit in my desire to know God?  All theologians agree that SOME things must be explicitly believed, with the vast majority (and absolute unanimity before the year 1600) holding that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In other words, no Jєω, Muslim, or any kind of infidel can possibly be saved.

    This was believed by all Catholics everywhere for the first 1600 years of Church history, meeting the criteria for infallible dogma based on the OUM.  Yet some Jesuits felt they were permitted to theorize that these were not necessary and that it was sufficient for supernatural faith just to believe in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  This was motivated by the desire to extend the possibility of salvation to infidels.

    Of course, recent Novus Ordo developments hold that atheists can be saved without ANY explicit belief whatsoever.

    I hold that Rewarder God theory is objectively heretical based on the teachings of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Those who lived before Vatican II might be excused of formal heresy because the OUM had not clearly been defined, but this notion must now be rejected as absolutely heretical.

    Lad,

    Very true - implicit desire for baptism of someone with faith in Christ and an implicit faith in Christ for someone who believes in God but lacks explicit faith in Christ are different, and that is a difference of some importance in terms of the discussion of the issue

    However, St. Alphonsus confuses the issue by not positing faith in Christ as essential to an implicit baptism of desire - in the cited quote - but "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost, which is really talking about grace and its work of converting the heart/mind/soul of man.

    Now, I contend that this is something which is a sine qua non for salvation, for the OT saints and all men everywhere. Most theologians accept that that faith may have been implicit - in the sense you discuss - before Christ and the promulgation of the Gospel, but not after. I believe St. Alphonsus himself believed that, though he noted the minority opinion. Perhaps he is conceding the minority opinion for purposes of his definition of implied BOD in the quotation from his Moral Theology. If so, he goes wrong there I think, and creates some of the confusion.

    I asked the question of how the OT saints were justified because I believe that they needed to be justified in a manner that meets the conditions laid down by St. Alphonsus in the quote - "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost.

    How else would the OT saints be justified? They could not w/o the operation of the Holy Ghost in a manner that meets St. Alphonsus's definition of BOD.

    Now, the Church explicitly notes a distinction in the manner of justification under the New Covenant after the promulgation of the Gospel with reference to baptism in the Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter 4:


    Quote

    CHAPTER IV.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

    https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

    There is now no justification without the laver of baptism, or desire thereof. The preceding clause indicates that this is a difference in the manner of justification. St. Alphonsus's definition obliterates this difference, or certainly appears to take no account of it if men could be saved by a perfect contrition or love of God (sans explicit faith in Christ) as they could before the promulgation of the Gospel.

    As a corollary, this is why I maintain that an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism is necessary as reflective of the change in the manner of justification after promulgation of the Gospel in the "age of grace," a justification which, again, could have been available without such a desire before the institution of the law of baptism - thus falsifying Trent's assertion of a change in the manner of justification after the promulgation of the Gospel.

    This understanding of a distinction in the manner of salvation is expressed also in the subsequent Catechism of Trent:

    Quote

    Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ's Resurrection


    The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

    This is inferred from the authority of the Prince of the Apostles when he says: Who hath regenerated us into a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead;' and also from what Paul says of the Church: He delivered himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life. By both Apostles the obligation of Baptism seems to be referred to the time which followed the death of our Lord. Hence we can have no doubt that the words of the Saviour: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, refer also to the same time which was to follow after His Passion.

    http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml

    The same distinction is very strongly implied in Benedictus Deus of Pope Benedict XII:

    Quote

    By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels.

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm

    So I disagree with St. Alphonsus (as the quote seems to indicate anyway) and those who hold out the possibility of justification (and subsequent entry into glory) by an implicit baptism of desire without an explicit faith in Christ (and also arguably an explicit desire for the sacrament), which may have been available before the change in the manner of justification that followed after the Passion of Our Lord and promulgation of the Gospel.

    A continuing availability for justification by a love of God etc. (St. Alphonsus's definition of an implied BOD) without explicit faith in Christ (and I believe  also an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism) doesn't accord with the change in the manner of justification in the "age of grace" as infallibly set forth by the Council of Trent and consistent with, and signaled by, the Magisterium prior.







     
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.

    Offline DecemRationis

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 12:00:02 PM »
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  • Interesting words of St. Thomas Aquinas on the effect of circuмcision during the Old Law:

    Tertia Pars (Q. 70, Art. 4):



    Article 4. Whether circuмcision bestowed sanctifying grace?

    Objection 1. It seems that circuмcision did not bestow sanctifying grace. For the Apostle says (Galatians 2:21): "If justice be by the Law, then Christ died in vain," i.e. without cause. But circuмcision was an obligation imposed by the Law, according to Galatians 5:3: "I testify . . . to every man circuмcising himself, that ne is a debtor to do the whole law." Therefore, if justice be by circuмcision, "Christ died in vain," i.e. without cause. But this cannot be allowed. Therefore circuмcision did not confer grace whereby the sinner is made righteous.

    Objection 2. Further, before the institution of circuмcision faith alone sufficed for justification; hence Gregory says (Moral. iv): "Faith alone did of old in behalf of infants that for which the water of Baptism avails with us." But faith has lost nothing of its strength through the commandment of circuмcision. Therefore faith alone justified little ones, and not circuмcision.

    Objection 3. Further, we read (Joshua 5:5-6) that "the people that were born in the desert, during the forty years . . . were uncircuмcised." If, therefore, original sin was taken away by circuмcision, it seems that all who died in the desert, both little children and adults, were lost. And the same argument avails in regard to those who died before the eighth day, which was that of circuмcision, which day could nol be anticipated, as stated above (Article 3, Reply to Objection 3).

    Objection 4. Further, nothing but sin closes the entrance to the heavenly kingdom. But before the Passion the entrance to the heavenly kingdom was closed to the circuмcised. Therefore men were not justified from sin by circuмcision.

    Objection 5. Further, original sin is not remitted without actual sin being remitted also: because "it is wicked to hope for half forgiveness from God," as Augustine says (De Vera et Falsa Poenit. ix). But we read nowhere of circuмcision as remitting actual sin. Therefore neither did it remit original sin.

    On the contrary, Augustine says, writing to Valerius in answer to Julian (De Nup. et Concup. ii): "From the time that circuмcision was instituted among God's people, as 'a seal of the justice of the faith,' it availed little children unto sanctification by cleansing them from the original and bygone sin; just as Baptism also from the time of its institution began to avail unto the renewal of man."

    I answer that, All are agreed in saying that original sin was remitted in circuмcision. But some said that no grace was conferred, and that the only effect was to remit sin. The Master holds this opinion (Sent. iv, D, 1), and in a gloss on Romans 4:11. But this is impossible, since guilt is not remitted except by grace, according to Romans 3:2: "Being justified freely by His grace," etc.

    Wherefore others said that grace was bestowed by circuмcision, as to that effect which is the remission of guilt, but not as to its positive effects; lest they should be compelled to say that the grace bestowed in circuмcision sufficed for the fulfilling of the precepts of the Law, and that, consequently, the coming of Christ was unnecessary. But neither can this opinion stand. First, because by circuмcision children. received the power of obtaining glory at the allotted time, which is the last positive effect of grace. Secondly, because, in the order of the formal cause, positive effects naturally precede those that denote privation, although it is the reverse in the order of the material cause: since a form does not remove a privation save by informing the subject.

    Consequently, others said that grace was conferred in circuмcision, also as a particular positive effect consisting in being made worthy of eternal life; but not as to all its effects, for it did not suffice for the repression of the concupiscence of the fomes, nor again for the fulfilment of the precepts of the Law. And this was my opinion at one time (Sent. iv, D, 1; 2, 4). But if one consider the matter carefully, it is clear that this is not true. Because the least grace can resist any degree of concupiscence, and avoid every mortal sin, that is committed in transgressing the precepts of the Law; for the smallest degree of charity loves God more than cupidity loves "thousands of gold and silver" (Psalm 118:72).

    We must say, therefore, that grace was bestowed in circuмcision as to all the effects of grace, but not as in Baptism. Because in Baptism grace is bestowed by the very power of Baptism itself, which power Baptism has as the instrument of Christ's Passion already consummated. Whereas circuмcision bestowed grace, inasmuch as it was a sign of faith in Christ's future Passion: so that the man who was circuмcised, professed to embrace that faith; whether, being an adult, he made profession for himself, or, being a child, someone else made profession for him. Hence, too, the Apostle says (Romans 4:11), that Abraham "received the sign of circuмcision, a seal of the justice of the faith": because, to wit, justice was of faith signified: not of circuмcision signifying. And since Baptism operates instrumentally by the power of Christ's Passion, whereas circuмcision does not, therefore Baptism imprints a character that incorporates man in Christ, and bestows grace more copiously than does circuмcision; since greater is the effect of a thing already present, than of the hope thereof.


    Reply to Objection 1. This argument would prove if justice were of circuмcision otherwise than through faith in Christ's Passion.

    Reply to Objection 2. Just as before the institution of circuмcision, faith in Christ to come justified both children and adults, so, too, after its institution. But before, there was no need of a sign expressive of this faith; because as yet believers had not begun to be united together apart from unbelievers for the worship of one God. It is probable, however, that parents who were believers offered up some prayers to God for their children, especially if these were in any danger. Or bestowed some blessing on them, as a "seal of faith"; just as the adults offered prayers and sacrifices for themselves.

    Reply to Objection 3. There was an excuse for the people in the desert failing to fulfill the precept of circuмcision, both because they knew not when the camp was removed, and because, as Damascene says (De Fide Orth. iv) they needed no distinctive sign while they dwelt apart from other nations. Nevertheless, as Augustine says (QQ. in Josue vi), those were guilty of disobedience who failed to obey through contempt.

    It seems, however, that none of the uncircuмcised died in the desert, for it is written (Psalm 104:37): "There was not among their tribes one that was feeble": and that those alone died in the desert, who had been circuмcised in Egypt. If, however, some of the uncircuмcised did die there, the same applies to them as to those who died before the institution of circuмcision. And this applies also to those children who, at the time of the Law, died before the eighth day.

    Reply to Objection 4. Original sin was taken away in circuмcision, in regard to the person; but on the part of the entire nature, there remained the obstacle to the entrance of the kingdom of heaven, which obstacle was removed by Christ's Passion. Consequently, before Christ's Passion not even Baptism gave entrance to the kingdom. But were circuмcision to avail after Christ's Passion, it would give entrance to the kingdom.

    Reply to Objection 5. When adults were circuмcised, they received remission not only of original, but also of actual sin: yet not so as to be delivered from all debt of punishment, as in Baptism, in which grace is conferred more copiously.
    https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm

    Sean,

    St. Thomas wrote before Trent.  At the Council of Trent, Session VI,  the Church stated:



    Quote
    CHAPTER I.
    On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

    The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary [Page 31] that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jєωs by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.

    https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html

    I'm not saying that St. Thomas's thought there couldn't still be sound; that's a long passage you quoted, and needs to be thought on. But I wanted to at least point the above out. 
    Rom. 3:25 Whom God hath proposed to be a propitiation, through faith in his blood, to the shewing of his justice, for the remission of former sins" 

    Apoc 17:17 For God hath given into their hearts to do that which pleaseth him: that they give their kingdom to the beast, till the words of God be fulfilled.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 12:27:19 PM »
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  • Sean,

    St. Thomas wrote before Trent.  At the Council of Trent, Session VI,  the Church stated:



    I'm not saying that St. Thomas's thought there couldn't still be sound; that's a long passage you quoted, and needs to be thought on. But I wanted to at least point the above out.

    One who disregards the teaching of two canonized doctors of the Church (one before Trent, and one after Trent), along with the practically unanimous opinion of theologians since Trent, in favor of their own explanations, is unlikely to receive anything I might post myself.

    Suffice it to say that the post-Tridentine popes declared that anyone might follow St. Alphonsus’s teachings in Theologia Moralis without any fear of error, and it is in book 6 of that masterpiece which is contained St. Alphonsus’s teaching -which he claims is de fide, and stands unchallenged by the same popes- on implicit baptism of desire.

    Perhaps the sedes should back up the date of the start of the alleged current interregnum to 1570 (in which case they will have to jettison the sainthood of Pope St. Pius V), seeing how they promoted such grievous “error” in endorsing St. Alphonsus’s doctrine.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 02:09:01 PM »
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  • One who disregards the teaching of two canonized doctors of the Church (one before Trent, and one after Trent), along with the practically unanimous opinion of theologians since Trent, in favor of their own explanations, is unlikely to receive anything I might post myself.
    The thing you will not admit is the same thing that all BODers who argue the matter will not admit, namely, that there is a definite disparity between some speculative teachings by a few of the great Doctors and theologians etc., and the infallible decrees of Trent.

    St. Thomas Aquinas himself admitted he might be wrong about a BOD:
    Quote
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." -Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 02:25:45 PM »
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  •  :popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  


    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 02:26:22 PM »
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  • However, St. Alphonsus confuses the issue by not positing faith in Christ as essential to an implicit baptism of desire - in the cited quote - but "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost, which is really talking about grace and its work of converting the heart/mind/soul of man.
     
    Right, St. Alphonsus is merely talking about the charity aspect of sanctifying grace, and assumes as a sine qua non for charity that there must be supernatural faith.  Trent teaches clearly that no one has ever been justified without faith.  St. Alphonsus himself, for instance, articulated that he believed that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation, although he IMO wrongly classified the "Rewarder God" theory as "probable".  In the light of Vatican I's definition of the OUM, it must be regarded as NOT probable.  It's also contrary to the Holy Office teaching, which I believe came out before he wrote that and which trumps St. Alphonsus' opinion, since the Holy Office clearly did not consider it probable.  I surmise that St. Alphonsus was not acquainted with that particular ruling (which I'll have to dig up at some point here).

    NB:  When they use the term "probable," it does not mean probable in the sense that it's "probably" the true position.  He actually felt that the other position was the right one and held it himself.  Probable simply means more along the lines of "tenable", though I disagree that it was tenable for the reasons I cited.

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 02:33:45 PM »
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  • I asked the question of how the OT saints were justified because I believe that they needed to be justified in a manner that meets the conditions laid down by St. Alphonsus in the quote - "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost.

    How else would the OT saints be justified? They could not w/o the operation of the Holy Ghost in a manner that meets St. Alphonsus's definition of BOD.

    It was highly disputed among the Church Fathers how the OT just were actually justified and/or saved.  Some Church Fathers actually believed that the reports of the dead coming from their tombs after the Resurrection was for the purpose of their getting baptized, so strongly did they believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation.  Others felt that circuмcision was required ... leaving the problem of whether the "noble pagan" could be saved.  Others felt that it was faith in the coming Redeemer.  It's not entirely clear.  All the Church Fathers agree, however, that the new economy of salvation after the "promulgation of the Gospel" (the term of St. Thomas) was different and that one could not draw conclusions from the OT dispensation to the requirements for salvation after Our Lord.

    I personally believe that the OT just were temporarily raised from the dead and baptized.  If that was not the case, then I believe that God still in an extraordinary manner bestowed the character of Baptism on the OT just so they could enter heaven, since I regard the Baptismal character as being what gives the human soul the capacity to see God as He is in the beatific vision, a faculty which human beings lack by nature.  It is also the mark by which God recognizes in baptized souls the image of His Son and thus admitting them into the family of the Holy Trinity as adopted sons.  That is my biggest issue with Baptism of Desire.  I would be much less averse to the theory if the BoD theorists actually held that those who are justified by BoD somehow receive this character in an extraordinary manner rather than the common opinion that anyone can enter into the Beatific Vision without it.

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 02:36:53 PM »
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  • :popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

    Circuмcision was not the ONLY means of grace, nor was it the only prefigurement of baptism:

    The Fathers note that the passage through the Red Sea was also a type of baptism (and of the 600,000 who passed through it, only 2 made it to the promised land).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Implicit BOD
    « Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 02:40:29 PM »
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  • :popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

    Yes, this is a big problem with the circuмcision position.  I personally do not believe that circuмcision remitted Original Sin, as it were, ex opere operato.  So in the OT there were no just women who were saved, not even the likes of St. Ann?  There's something missing with the circuмcision theory.  St. Paul seemed to indicate that OT justification came through faith in the coming Redeemer.