Catholic Info

Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 08:27:08 AM

Title: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 08:27:08 AM

Another thread or topic got sidetracked with a discussion of BOD. During that thread, Sean posted the following from St. Alphonsus on baptism of desire:



Quote
"But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.

I underlined the part of the quote, "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," and "it is called 'of wind[flaminis] because it takes place by impulse of the Holy Ghost," and posed this question(s): 


Quote
A relevant question: Isn't that how the Saints of the OT were justified before death?

Stated differently: weren't the OT saints justified by something meeting the definition of an "implicit" baptism of desire?


I disagree with St. Alphonsus regarding salvation by implicit BOD after the promulgation of the Gospel (i.e. under the New Covenant) and wanted to lay a foundation for a discussion on that point by getting some input on how the OT saints were justified. 

Stubborn responded to my question as follows:


Quote
By worshiping God, believing in a redeemer to come and living a moral life.

I'll wait a bit and see if someone would also offer an opinion (or even better, quote some authority) on how the OT saints were justified.

Thanks,

DR
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 09:26:59 AM
I think that two different considerations are typically conflated in this notion of "implicit" Baptism of Desire.

There's the idea of implicit desire for Baptism proper and then idea of implicit faith.

So, for instance, I am converted to the Church and want to become a Catholic, but I do not form the explicit intention "I desire to be Baptized."  One can see the DESIRE here to be implicit in the desire to become a Catholic.

Then there's the notion of implicit faith, which many have promoted.  "I am a well-meaning pagan who follow my lights regarding the natural law."

So this discussion gets confused the the degrees of "implicit"-ness, i.e. the degrees of separation from the explicit.

It's absolutely indisputed that supernatural faith is required for salvation.  Lots of modern BoDers focus on the "desire" (an act of the will) but ignore the intellectual requirements for salvation, as if one can will to have supernatural faith without believing anything.  What's at issue is what are the requirements to have supernatural faith.  Can faith be implicit in my desire to know God?  All theologians agree that SOME things must be explicitly believed, with the vast majority (and absolute unanimity before the year 1600) holding that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In other words, no Jєω, Muslim, or any kind of infidel can possibly be saved.

This was believed by all Catholics everywhere for the first 1600 years of Church history, meeting the criteria for infallible dogma based on the OUM.  Yet some Jesuits felt they were permitted to theorize that these were not necessary and that it was sufficient for supernatural faith just to believe in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  This was motivated by the desire to extend the possibility of salvation to infidels.

Of course, recent Novus Ordo developments hold that atheists can be saved without ANY explicit belief whatsoever.

I hold that Rewarder God theory is objectively heretical based on the teachings of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Those who lived before Vatican II might be excused of formal heresy because the OUM had not clearly been defined, but this notion must now be rejected as absolutely heretical.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 10:04:50 AM
You keeping digging a bigger hole in an attempt to justify yourself.

There was a time when salvation wasn't a thing? Please.

And to be saved, man always had to be justified by the grace of God.

Let's take this elsewhere. I'll start a new thread.

I'll end this here with: Father Cekada, pray for us.
There was no salvation until Christ died on the cross for our sins. 

So no, once again, the Old Testament Fathers were not saved by BOD. They were not saved at all until Christ descended into Hell and freed them. I haven't been able to find anywhere where the Church teaches who went into the Limbo of the Fathers and who was damned to Gehenna instead, other than vague references to the "righteous dead", but their salvation centuries after death had nothing to do with any sort of desire for a sacrament that didn't yet exist. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: LeDeg on September 15, 2020, 10:45:48 AM
Lad, refresh my memory. What is the docuмent from Benedict XIV (?) in 1703 that ruled against the God that rewards principle the Jesuits were pushing?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 11:19:22 AM
Lad, refresh my memory. What is the docuмent from Benedict XIV (?) in 1703 that ruled against the God that rewards principle the Jesuits were pushing?

I need to dig it up again.  I posted it some time ago on a different thread but don't have it handy again.

One could argue that it's disciplinary, but there's doctrine embedded in it, saying that souls cannot be baptized without knowing explicitly the truths which are necessary by necessity of means for salvation.  So there's a doctrinal principle which holds that knowledge of the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation are necessary for salvation.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 11:21:25 AM
There was no salvation until Christ died on the cross for our sins.

So no, once again, the Old Testament Fathers were not saved by BOD. They were not saved at all until Christ descended into Hell and freed them. I haven't been able to find anywhere where the Church teaches who went into the Limbo of the Fathers and who was damned to Gehenna instead, other than vague references to the "righteous dead", but their salvation centuries after death had nothing to do with any sort of desire for a sacrament that didn't yet exist.

Interesting words of St. Thomas Aquinas on the effect of circuмcision during the Old Law:

Tertia Pars (Q. 70, Art. 4):



Article 4. Whether circuмcision bestowed sanctifying grace?

Objection 1. It seems that circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) did not bestow sanctifying grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm). For the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) says (Galatians 2:21 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/gal002.htm#verse21)): "If justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) be by the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), then Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) died in vain," i.e. without cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm). But circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) was an obligation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) imposed by the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), according to Galatians 5:3 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/gal005.htm#verse3): "I testify . . . to every man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) circuмcising himself, that ne is a debtor to do the whole law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm)." Therefore, if justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) be by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), "Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) died in vain," i.e. without cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm). But this cannot be allowed. Therefore circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) did not confer grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) whereby the sinner is made righteous.

Objection 2. Further, before the institution of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) alone sufficed for justification (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm); hence Gregory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm) says (Moral. iv): "Faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) alone did of old in behalf of infants that for which the water of Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) avails with us." But faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) has lost nothing of its strength through the commandment of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). Therefore faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) alone justified little ones, and not circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm).

Objection 3. Further, we read (Joshua 5:5-6 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/jos005.htm#verse5)) that "the people that were born in the desert, during the forty years . . . were uncircuмcised." If, therefore, original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) was taken away by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), it seems that all who died in the desert, both little children and adults, were lost. And the same argument avails in regard to those who died before the eighth day, which was that of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), which day could nol be anticipated, as stated above (Article 3, Reply to Objection 3 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm#article3)).

Objection 4. Further, nothing but sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) closes the entrance to the heavenly kingdom. But before the Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) the entrance to the heavenly kingdom was closed to the circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). Therefore men were not justified from sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm).

Objection 5. Further, original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) is not remitted without actual sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) being remitted also: because "it is wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm) to hope for half forgiveness from God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm)," as Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says (De Vera et Falsa Poenit. ix). But we read nowhere of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) as remitting actual sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Therefore neither did it remit original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm).

On the contrary, Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says, writing to Valerius in answer to Julian (De Nup. et Concup. ii (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15072.htm)): "From the time that circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) was instituted among God's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) people, as 'a seal of the justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) of the faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm),' it availed little children unto sanctification by cleansing them from the original and bygone sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); just as Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) also from the time (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) of its institution began to avail unto the renewal of man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm)."

I answer that, All are agreed in saying that original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) was remitted in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). But some said that no grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was conferred, and that the only effect was to remit sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). The Master (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11768d.htm) holds this opinion (Sent. iv, D, 1), and in a gloss (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06586a.htm) on Romans 4:11 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom004.htm#verse11). But this is impossible, since guilt is not remitted except by grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), according to Romans 3:2 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom003.htm#verse2): "Being justified freely by His grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm)," etc.

Wherefore others said that grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was bestowed by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), as to that effect which is the remission of guilt, but not as to its positive effects; lest they should be compelled to say that the grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) bestowed in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) sufficed for the fulfilling of the precepts of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), and that, consequently, the coming of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) was unnecessary. But neither can this opinion stand. First, because by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) children. received the power of obtaining glory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) at the allotted time, which is the last positive effect of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm). Secondly, because, in the order of the formal (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06137b.htm) cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm), positive effects naturally (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) precede those that denote privation, although it is the reverse in the order of the material cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm): since a form does not remove a privation save by informing the subject.

Consequently, others said that grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was conferred in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), also as a particular positive effect consisting in being made worthy of eternal life (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm); but not as to all its effects, for it did not suffice for the repression of the concupiscence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm) of the fomes, nor again for the fulfilment of the precepts of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm). And this was my opinion at one time (Sent. iv, D, 1; 2, 4). But if one consider the matter (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10053b.htm) carefully, it is clear that this is not true (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm). Because the least grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) can resist any degree of concupiscence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm), and avoid every mortal sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), that is committed in transgressing the precepts of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm); for the smallest degree of charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) loves God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) more than cupidity loves "thousands of gold and silver" (Psalm 118:72 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/psa118.htm#verse72)).

We must say, therefore, that grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was bestowed in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) as to all the effects of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), but not as in Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm). Because in Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) is bestowed by the very power of Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) itself, which power Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) has as the instrument of Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) already consummated. Whereas circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) bestowed grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), inasmuch as it was a sign of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) future Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm): so that the man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) who was circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), professed to embrace that faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); whether, being an adult, he made profession for himself, or, being a child, someone else made profession for him. Hence, too, the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) says (Romans 4:11 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom004.htm#verse11)), that Abraham (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01051a.htm) "received the sign of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), a seal of the justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) of the faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm)": because, to wit, justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) was of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) signified: not of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) signifying. And since Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) operates instrumentally by the power of Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm), whereas circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) does not, therefore Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) imprints a character that incorporates man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) in Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), and bestows grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) more copiously than does circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm); since greater is the effect of a thing already present, than of the hope thereof.


Reply to Objection 1. This argument would prove (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454c.htm) if justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) were of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) otherwise than through faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm).

Reply to Objection 2. Just as before the institution of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) to come justified both children and adults, so, too, after its institution. But before, there was no need of a sign expressive of this faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); because as yet believers had not begun to be united together apart from unbelievers for the worship of one God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). It is probable, however, that parents who were believers offered up some prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) to God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) for their children, especially if these were in any danger. Or bestowed some blessing (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02599b.htm) on them, as a "seal of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm)"; just as the adults offered prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) and sacrifices (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm) for themselves.

Reply to Objection 3. There was an excuse for the people in the desert failing to fulfill the precept of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), both because they knew (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) not when the camp was removed, and because, as Damascene (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08459b.htm) says (De Fide Orth. iv) they needed no distinctive sign while they dwelt apart from other nations. Nevertheless, as Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says (QQ. in Josue vi), those were guilty of disobedience who failed to obey through contempt.

It seems, however, that none of the uncircuмcised died in the desert, for it is written (Psalm 104:37 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/psa104.htm#verse37)): "There was not among their tribes one that was feeble": and that those alone died in the desert, who had been circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) in Egypt (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05329b.htm). If, however, some of the uncircuмcised did die there, the same applies to them as to those who died before the institution of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). And this applies also to those children who, at the time (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), died before the eighth day.

Reply to Objection 4. Original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) was taken away in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), in regard to the person (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm); but on the part of the entire nature (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm), there remained the obstacle to the entrance of the kingdom of heaven (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm), which obstacle was removed by Christ's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm). Consequently, before Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) not even Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) gave entrance to the kingdom. But were circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) to avail after Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm), it would give entrance to the kingdom.

Reply to Objection 5. When adults were circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), they received remission not only of original, but also of actual sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm): yet not so as to be delivered from all debt of punishment, as in Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm), in which grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) is conferred more copiously.
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 11:48:46 AM

I think that two different considerations are typically conflated in this notion of "implicit" Baptism of Desire.

There's the idea of implicit desire for Baptism proper and then idea of implicit faith.

So, for instance, I am converted to the Church and want to become a Catholic, but I do not form the explicit intention "I desire to be Baptized."  One can see the DESIRE here to be implicit in the desire to become a Catholic.

Then there's the notion of implicit faith, which many have promoted.  "I am a well-meaning pagan who follow my lights regarding the natural law."

So this discussion gets confused the the degrees of "implicit"-ness, i.e. the degrees of separation from the explicit.

It's absolutely indisputed that supernatural faith is required for salvation.  Lots of modern BoDers focus on the "desire" (an act of the will) but ignore the intellectual requirements for salvation, as if one can will to have supernatural faith without believing anything.  What's at issue is what are the requirements to have supernatural faith.  Can faith be implicit in my desire to know God?  All theologians agree that SOME things must be explicitly believed, with the vast majority (and absolute unanimity before the year 1600) holding that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In other words, no Jєω, Muslim, or any kind of infidel can possibly be saved.

This was believed by all Catholics everywhere for the first 1600 years of Church history, meeting the criteria for infallible dogma based on the OUM.  Yet some Jesuits felt they were permitted to theorize that these were not necessary and that it was sufficient for supernatural faith just to believe in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  This was motivated by the desire to extend the possibility of salvation to infidels.

Of course, recent Novus Ordo developments hold that atheists can be saved without ANY explicit belief whatsoever.

I hold that Rewarder God theory is objectively heretical based on the teachings of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Those who lived before Vatican II might be excused of formal heresy because the OUM had not clearly been defined, but this notion must now be rejected as absolutely heretical.

Lad,

Very true - implicit desire for baptism of someone with faith in Christ and an implicit faith in Christ for someone who believes in God but lacks explicit faith in Christ are different, and that is a difference of some importance in terms of the discussion of the issue

However, St. Alphonsus confuses the issue by not positing faith in Christ as essential to an implicit baptism of desire - in the cited quote - but "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost, which is really talking about grace and its work of converting the heart/mind/soul of man.

Now, I contend that this is something which is a sine qua non for salvation, for the OT saints and all men everywhere. Most theologians accept that that faith may have been implicit - in the sense you discuss - before Christ and the promulgation of the Gospel, but not after. I believe St. Alphonsus himself believed that, though he noted the minority opinion. Perhaps he is conceding the minority opinion for purposes of his definition of implied BOD in the quotation from his Moral Theology. If so, he goes wrong there I think, and creates some of the confusion.

I asked the question of how the OT saints were justified because I believe that they needed to be justified in a manner that meets the conditions laid down by St. Alphonsus in the quote - "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost.

How else would the OT saints be justified? They could not w/o the operation of the Holy Ghost in a manner that meets St. Alphonsus's definition of BOD.

Now, the Church explicitly notes a distinction in the manner of justification under the New Covenant after the promulgation of the Gospel with reference to baptism in the Council of Trent, Session VI, Chapter 4:


Quote

CHAPTER IV.
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html (https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html)
(https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html)
There is now no justification without the laver of baptism, or desire thereof. The preceding clause indicates that this is a difference in the manner of justification. St. Alphonsus's definition obliterates this difference, or certainly appears to take no account of it if men could be saved by a perfect contrition or love of God (sans explicit faith in Christ) as they could before the promulgation of the Gospel.

As a corollary, this is why I maintain that an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism is necessary as reflective of the change in the manner of justification after promulgation of the Gospel in the "age of grace," a justification which, again, could have been available without such a desire before the institution of the law of baptism - thus falsifying Trent's assertion of a change in the manner of justification after the promulgation of the Gospel.

This understanding of a distinction in the manner of salvation is expressed also in the subsequent Catechism of Trent:

Quote

Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ's Resurrection


The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.

This is inferred from the authority of the Prince of the Apostles when he says: Who hath regenerated us into a lively hope, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead;' and also from what Paul says of the Church: He delivered himself up for it: that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life. By both Apostles the obligation of Baptism seems to be referred to the time which followed the death of our Lord. Hence we can have no doubt that the words of the Saviour: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God, refer also to the same time which was to follow after His Passion.

http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml (http://catholicapologetics.info/thechurch/catechism/Holy7Sacraments-Baptism.shtml)

The same distinction is very strongly implied in Benedictus Deus of Pope Benedict XII:

Quote

By this Constitution which is to remain in force for ever, we, with apostolic authority, define the following: According to the general disposition of God, the souls of all the saints who departed from this world before the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ and also of the holy apostles, martyrs, confessors, virgins and other faithful who died after receiving the holy baptism of Christ- provided they were not in need of any purification when they died, or will not be in need of any when they die in the future, or else, if they then needed or will need some purification, after they have been purified after death-and again the souls of children who have been reborn by the same baptism of Christ or will be when baptism is conferred on them, if they die before attaining the use of free will: all these souls, immediately (mox) after death and, in the case of those in need of purification, after the purification mentioned above, since the ascension of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ into heaven, already before they take up their bodies again and before the general judgment, have been, are and will be with Christ in heaven, in the heavenly kingdom and paradise, joined to the company of the holy angels.

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm (https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm)
(https://www.papalencyclicals.net/ben12/b12bdeus.htm)
So I disagree with St. Alphonsus (as the quote seems to indicate anyway) and those who hold out the possibility of justification (and subsequent entry into glory) by an implicit baptism of desire without an explicit faith in Christ (and also arguably an explicit desire for the sacrament), which may have been available before the change in the manner of justification that followed after the Passion of Our Lord and promulgation of the Gospel.

A continuing availability for justification by a love of God etc. (St. Alphonsus's definition of an implied BOD) without explicit faith in Christ (and I believe  also an explicit desire for the sacrament of baptism) doesn't accord with the change in the manner of justification in the "age of grace" as infallibly set forth by the Council of Trent and consistent with, and signaled by, the Magisterium prior.







 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 12:00:02 PM
Interesting words of St. Thomas Aquinas on the effect of circuмcision during the Old Law:

Tertia Pars (Q. 70, Art. 4):



Article 4. Whether circuмcision bestowed sanctifying grace?

Objection 1. It seems that circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) did not bestow sanctifying grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06701a.htm). For the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) says (Galatians 2:21 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/gal002.htm#verse21)): "If justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) be by the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), then Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) died in vain," i.e. without cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm). But circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) was an obligation (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11189a.htm) imposed by the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), according to Galatians 5:3 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/gal005.htm#verse3): "I testify . . . to every man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) circuмcising himself, that ne is a debtor to do the whole law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09053a.htm)." Therefore, if justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) be by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), "Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) died in vain," i.e. without cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm). But this cannot be allowed. Therefore circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) did not confer grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) whereby the sinner is made righteous.

Objection 2. Further, before the institution of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) alone sufficed for justification (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08573a.htm); hence Gregory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06780a.htm) says (Moral. iv): "Faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) alone did of old in behalf of infants that for which the water of Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) avails with us." But faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) has lost nothing of its strength through the commandment of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). Therefore faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) alone justified little ones, and not circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm).

Objection 3. Further, we read (Joshua 5:5-6 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/jos005.htm#verse5)) that "the people that were born in the desert, during the forty years . . . were uncircuмcised." If, therefore, original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) was taken away by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), it seems that all who died in the desert, both little children and adults, were lost. And the same argument avails in regard to those who died before the eighth day, which was that of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), which day could nol be anticipated, as stated above (Article 3, Reply to Objection 3 (https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm#article3)).

Objection 4. Further, nothing but sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) closes the entrance to the heavenly kingdom. But before the Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) the entrance to the heavenly kingdom was closed to the circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). Therefore men were not justified from sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm).

Objection 5. Further, original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) is not remitted without actual sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm) being remitted also: because "it is wicked (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05649a.htm) to hope for half forgiveness from God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm)," as Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says (De Vera et Falsa Poenit. ix). But we read nowhere of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) as remitting actual sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). Therefore neither did it remit original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm).

On the contrary, Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says, writing to Valerius in answer to Julian (De Nup. et Concup. ii (https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15072.htm)): "From the time that circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) was instituted among God's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) people, as 'a seal of the justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) of the faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm),' it availed little children unto sanctification by cleansing them from the original and bygone sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm); just as Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) also from the time (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) of its institution began to avail unto the renewal of man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm)."

I answer that, All are agreed in saying that original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) was remitted in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). But some said that no grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was conferred, and that the only effect was to remit sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm). The Master (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11768d.htm) holds this opinion (Sent. iv, D, 1), and in a gloss (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06586a.htm) on Romans 4:11 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom004.htm#verse11). But this is impossible, since guilt is not remitted except by grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), according to Romans 3:2 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom003.htm#verse2): "Being justified freely by His grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm)," etc.

Wherefore others said that grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was bestowed by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), as to that effect which is the remission of guilt, but not as to its positive effects; lest they should be compelled to say that the grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) bestowed in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) sufficed for the fulfilling of the precepts of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), and that, consequently, the coming of Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) was unnecessary. But neither can this opinion stand. First, because by circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) children. received the power of obtaining glory (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06585a.htm) at the allotted time, which is the last positive effect of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm). Secondly, because, in the order of the formal (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06137b.htm) cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm), positive effects naturally (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm) precede those that denote privation, although it is the reverse in the order of the material cause (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03459a.htm): since a form does not remove a privation save by informing the subject.

Consequently, others said that grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was conferred in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), also as a particular positive effect consisting in being made worthy of eternal life (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07170a.htm); but not as to all its effects, for it did not suffice for the repression of the concupiscence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm) of the fomes, nor again for the fulfilment of the precepts of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm). And this was my opinion at one time (Sent. iv, D, 1; 2, 4). But if one consider the matter (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10053b.htm) carefully, it is clear that this is not true (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15073a.htm). Because the least grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) can resist any degree of concupiscence (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04208a.htm), and avoid every mortal sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm), that is committed in transgressing the precepts of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm); for the smallest degree of charity (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09397a.htm) loves God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) more than cupidity loves "thousands of gold and silver" (Psalm 118:72 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/psa118.htm#verse72)).

We must say, therefore, that grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) was bestowed in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) as to all the effects of grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), but not as in Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm). Because in Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) is bestowed by the very power of Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) itself, which power Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) has as the instrument of Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) already consummated. Whereas circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) bestowed grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm), inasmuch as it was a sign of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) future Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm): so that the man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) who was circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), professed to embrace that faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); whether, being an adult, he made profession for himself, or, being a child, someone else made profession for him. Hence, too, the Apostle (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm) says (Romans 4:11 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/rom004.htm#verse11)), that Abraham (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01051a.htm) "received the sign of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), a seal of the justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) of the faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm)": because, to wit, justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) was of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) signified: not of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) signifying. And since Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) operates instrumentally by the power of Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm), whereas circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) does not, therefore Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) imprints a character that incorporates man (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09580c.htm) in Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm), and bestows grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) more copiously than does circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm); since greater is the effect of a thing already present, than of the hope thereof.


Reply to Objection 1. This argument would prove (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12454c.htm) if justice (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08571c.htm) were of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) otherwise than through faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm).

Reply to Objection 2. Just as before the institution of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm) in Christ (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) to come justified both children and adults, so, too, after its institution. But before, there was no need of a sign expressive of this faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm); because as yet believers had not begun to be united together apart from unbelievers for the worship of one God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm). It is probable, however, that parents who were believers offered up some prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) to God (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) for their children, especially if these were in any danger. Or bestowed some blessing (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02599b.htm) on them, as a "seal of faith (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05752c.htm)"; just as the adults offered prayers (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm) and sacrifices (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13309a.htm) for themselves.

Reply to Objection 3. There was an excuse for the people in the desert failing to fulfill the precept of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), both because they knew (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08673a.htm) not when the camp was removed, and because, as Damascene (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08459b.htm) says (De Fide Orth. iv) they needed no distinctive sign while they dwelt apart from other nations. Nevertheless, as Augustine (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02084a.htm) says (QQ. in Josue vi), those were guilty of disobedience who failed to obey through contempt.

It seems, however, that none of the uncircuмcised died in the desert, for it is written (Psalm 104:37 (https://www.newadvent.org/bible/psa104.htm#verse37)): "There was not among their tribes one that was feeble": and that those alone died in the desert, who had been circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) in Egypt (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05329b.htm). If, however, some of the uncircuмcised did die there, the same applies to them as to those who died before the institution of circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm). And this applies also to those children who, at the time (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14726a.htm) of the Law (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10582c.htm), died before the eighth day.

Reply to Objection 4. Original sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11312a.htm) was taken away in circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), in regard to the person (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11726a.htm); but on the part of the entire nature (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10715a.htm), there remained the obstacle to the entrance of the kingdom of heaven (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08646a.htm), which obstacle was removed by Christ's (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm). Consequently, before Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm) not even Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm) gave entrance to the kingdom. But were circuмcision (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm) to avail after Christ's Passion (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11527b.htm), it would give entrance to the kingdom.

Reply to Objection 5. When adults were circuмcised (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03777a.htm), they received remission not only of original, but also of actual sin (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm): yet not so as to be delivered from all debt of punishment, as in Baptism (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm), in which grace (https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm) is conferred more copiously.
https://www.newadvent.org/summa/4070.htm

Sean,

St. Thomas wrote before Trent.  At the Council of Trent, Session VI,  the Church stated:



Quote
CHAPTER I.
On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary [Page 31] that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jєωs by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.

https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html (https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html)

I'm not saying that St. Thomas's thought there couldn't still be sound; that's a long passage you quoted, and needs to be thought on. But I wanted to at least point the above out. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 12:27:19 PM
Sean,

St. Thomas wrote before Trent.  At the Council of Trent, Session VI,  the Church stated:



I'm not saying that St. Thomas's thought there couldn't still be sound; that's a long passage you quoted, and needs to be thought on. But I wanted to at least point the above out.

One who disregards the teaching of two canonized doctors of the Church (one before Trent, and one after Trent), along with the practically unanimous opinion of theologians since Trent, in favor of their own explanations, is unlikely to receive anything I might post myself.

Suffice it to say that the post-Tridentine popes declared that anyone might follow St. Alphonsus’s teachings in Theologia Moralis without any fear of error, and it is in book 6 of that masterpiece which is contained St. Alphonsus’s teaching -which he claims is de fide, and stands unchallenged by the same popes- on implicit baptism of desire.

Perhaps the sedes should back up the date of the start of the alleged current interregnum to 1570 (in which case they will have to jettison the sainthood of Pope St. Pius V), seeing how they promoted such grievous “error” in endorsing St. Alphonsus’s doctrine.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 02:09:01 PM
One who disregards the teaching of two canonized doctors of the Church (one before Trent, and one after Trent), along with the practically unanimous opinion of theologians since Trent, in favor of their own explanations, is unlikely to receive anything I might post myself.
The thing you will not admit is the same thing that all BODers who argue the matter will not admit, namely, that there is a definite disparity between some speculative teachings by a few of the great Doctors and theologians etc., and the infallible decrees of Trent.

St. Thomas Aquinas himself admitted he might be wrong about a BOD:
Quote
"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." -Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Seraphina on September 15, 2020, 02:25:45 PM
 :popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 02:26:22 PM
However, St. Alphonsus confuses the issue by not positing faith in Christ as essential to an implicit baptism of desire - in the cited quote - but "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost, which is really talking about grace and its work of converting the heart/mind/soul of man.
 
Right, St. Alphonsus is merely talking about the charity aspect of sanctifying grace, and assumes as a sine qua non for charity that there must be supernatural faith.  Trent teaches clearly that no one has ever been justified without faith.  St. Alphonsus himself, for instance, articulated that he believed that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation, although he IMO wrongly classified the "Rewarder God" theory as "probable".  In the light of Vatican I's definition of the OUM, it must be regarded as NOT probable.  It's also contrary to the Holy Office teaching, which I believe came out before he wrote that and which trumps St. Alphonsus' opinion, since the Holy Office clearly did not consider it probable.  I surmise that St. Alphonsus was not acquainted with that particular ruling (which I'll have to dig up at some point here).

NB:  When they use the term "probable," it does not mean probable in the sense that it's "probably" the true position.  He actually felt that the other position was the right one and held it himself.  Probable simply means more along the lines of "tenable", though I disagree that it was tenable for the reasons I cited.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 02:33:45 PM

I asked the question of how the OT saints were justified because I believe that they needed to be justified in a manner that meets the conditions laid down by St. Alphonsus in the quote - "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost.

How else would the OT saints be justified? They could not w/o the operation of the Holy Ghost in a manner that meets St. Alphonsus's definition of BOD.

It was highly disputed among the Church Fathers how the OT just were actually justified and/or saved.  Some Church Fathers actually believed that the reports of the dead coming from their tombs after the Resurrection was for the purpose of their getting baptized, so strongly did they believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation.  Others felt that circuмcision was required ... leaving the problem of whether the "noble pagan" could be saved.  Others felt that it was faith in the coming Redeemer.  It's not entirely clear.  All the Church Fathers agree, however, that the new economy of salvation after the "promulgation of the Gospel" (the term of St. Thomas) was different and that one could not draw conclusions from the OT dispensation to the requirements for salvation after Our Lord.

I personally believe that the OT just were temporarily raised from the dead and baptized.  If that was not the case, then I believe that God still in an extraordinary manner bestowed the character of Baptism on the OT just so they could enter heaven, since I regard the Baptismal character as being what gives the human soul the capacity to see God as He is in the beatific vision, a faculty which human beings lack by nature.  It is also the mark by which God recognizes in baptized souls the image of His Son and thus admitting them into the family of the Holy Trinity as adopted sons.  That is my biggest issue with Baptism of Desire.  I would be much less averse to the theory if the BoD theorists actually held that those who are justified by BoD somehow receive this character in an extraordinary manner rather than the common opinion that anyone can enter into the Beatific Vision without it.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 02:36:53 PM
:popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

Circuмcision was not the ONLY means of grace, nor was it the only prefigurement of baptism:

The Fathers note that the passage through the Red Sea was also a type of baptism (and of the 600,000 who passed through it, only 2 made it to the promised land).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 02:40:29 PM
:popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

Yes, this is a big problem with the circuмcision position.  I personally do not believe that circuмcision remitted Original Sin, as it were, ex opere operato.  So in the OT there were no just women who were saved, not even the likes of St. Ann?  There's something missing with the circuмcision theory.  St. Paul seemed to indicate that OT justification came through faith in the coming Redeemer.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 02:43:23 PM

Right, St. Alphonsus is merely talking about the charity aspect of sanctifying grace, and assumes as a sine qua non for charity that there must be supernatural faith.  Trent teaches clearly that no one has ever been justified without faith.  St. Alphonsus himself, for instance, articulated that he believed that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation, although he IMO wrongly classified the "Rewarder God" theory as "probable".  In the light of Vatican I's definition of the OUM, it must be regarded as NOT probable.  It's also contrary to the Holy Office teaching, which I believe came out before he wrote that and which trumps St. Alphonsus' opinion, since the Holy Office clearly did not consider it probable.  I surmise that St. Alphonsus was not acquainted with that particular ruling (which I'll have to dig up at some point here).

NB:  When they use the term "probable," it does not mean probable in the sense that it's "probably" the true position.  He actually felt that the other position was the right one and held it himself.  Probable simply means more along the lines of "tenable", though I disagree that it was tenable for the reasons I cited.

St. Thomas Aquinas:

"If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.”

STh II-II q. 2 a. 7 ad 3
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 02:44:12 PM
Circuмcision was not the ONLY means of grace, nor was it the only prefigurement of baptism:

The Fathers note that the passage through the Red Sea was also a type of baptism (and of the 600,000 who passed through it, only 2 made it to the promised land).

Even if you think that, there's still a problem with it.  One would have to say, based on this theory, that all females who died before the age of reason were lost, since until the age of reason they would not have any other means of grace.  So a 2-year-old boy who died circuмcised would eventually make it to heaven, while a 2-year-old girls who died could not.  That just doesn't sound right to me.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 02:45:25 PM
Yes, this is a big problem with the circuмcision position.  I personally do not believe that circuмcision remitted Original Sin, as it were, ex opere operato.  So in the OT there were no just women who were saved, not even the likes of St. Ann?  There's something missing with the circuмcision theory.  St. Paul seemed to indicate that OT justification came through faith in the coming Redeemer.

As mentioned above, it is no problem at all:

Seraphina mistakenly thought circuмcision was the ONLY means of sanctifying grace, but nobody ever made that argument.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 02:47:56 PM
Even if you think that, there's still a problem with it.  One would have to say, based on this theory, that all females who died before the age of reason were lost, since until the age of reason they would not have any other means of grace.  So a 2-year-old boy who died circuмcised would eventually make it to heaven, while a 2-year-old girls who died could not.  That just doesn't sound right to me.

Its quite a bit worse than that:

Only 2 of 600,000 were saved.  

"But with most of them he was not well pleased."

Moses seems to be the exception to the 2/600,000 stat (but even the great Moses did not inherit the promised land, though he was certainly saved).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 02:49:39 PM
St. Thomas Aquinas:

"If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.”

STh II-II q. 2 a. 7 ad 3

I would like to discuss this now.

I have never heard anyone other than a Feeneyite assert Aquinas erred here.

But as I understand the Feeneyite mind:

1) Lefebvre was a modernist for allegedly teaching implicit faith;

2) St. Thomas likewise was a modernist teaching implicit faith;

3) All the post-Tridentine theologians are modernists for preaching implicit faith;

4) St. Alphonsus was a mushhead, and not knowing what Trent taught, maintained an heretical position condemned by Trent;

5) The popes who declared anyone might follow the teachings of St. Alphonsus were modernists for leading people into Alphonsus's errors;

6) All these are wrong, and the Feeneyites are right.

Does that more or less sum it up?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 03:09:09 PM
I would like to discuss this now.

I have never heard anyone other than a Feeneyite assert Aquinas erred here.

But as I understand the Feeneyite mind:

1) Lefebvre was a modernist for allegedly teaching implicit faith;

2) St. Thomas likewise was a modernist teaching implicit faith;

3) All the post-Tridentine theologians are modernists for preaching implicit faith;

4) St. Alphonsus was a mushhead, and not knowing what Trent taught, maintained an heretical position condemned by Trent;

5) The popes who declared anyone might follow the teachings of St. Alphonsus were modernists for leading people into Alphonsus's errors;

6) All these are wrong, and the Feeneyites are right.

Does that more or less sum it up?
Will you say that St. Alphonsus is a feeneyite heretic?

From:  (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)."
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 03:14:15 PM
St. Thomas Aquinas:

"If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.”

STh II-II q. 2 a. 7 ad 3

Right, but he's speaking about the OT economy of salvation.  He clearly teaches that explicit faith in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation "since the promulgation of the Gospel" (i.e. in NT times).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2020, 03:18:06 PM
I would like to discuss this now.

I have never heard anyone other than a Feeneyite assert Aquinas erred here.

I just replied to the quote, which is in reference to the OT economy of salvation.  To correct the previous phrase, St. Thomas used the phrase "once grace had been revealed" not the "Gospel promulgated" as I wrote earlier.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 03:28:10 PM
Will you say that St. Alphonsus is a feeneyite heretic?

From:  (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)."
He's responding to the Protestant heresy of Justification By Faith Alone here; he's not saying that Baptism cannot be received in voto, and he explicitly teaches that it can elsewhere.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 03:44:03 PM
He's responding to the Protestant heresy of Justification By Faith Alone here; he's not saying that Baptism cannot be received in voto, and he explicitly teaches that it can elsewhere.
What is a BOD if not justification by faith alone? He starts out saying that "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary" - a BOD is not a sacrament. Saying that a BOD suffices is to say no sacrament is necessary. Where am I misquoting him? The only sacrament he allows the desire for, is (spiritual) communion.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Struthio on September 15, 2020, 03:55:08 PM
Will you say that St. Alphonsus is a feeneyite heretic?

From:  (An Exposition and Defence of All the Points of Faith Discussed and Defined by the Sacred Council of Trent, Along With the Refutation of the Errors of the Pretended Reformers, Saint Alphonsus Liguori, Dublin, 1846.)

"The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary, inasmuch as they hold that man is justified by faith alone, and that the sacraments only serve to excite and nourish this faith, which (as they say) can be equally excited and nourished by preaching.  But this is certainly false, and is condemned in the fifth, sixth, seventh, and eighth canons:  for as we know from the Scriptures, some of the sacraments are necessary (necessitate Medii) as a means without which salvation is impossible. Thus Baptism is necessary for all, Penance for them who have fallen into sin after Baptism, and the Eucharist is necessary for all at least in desire ( in voto)."

Very interesting, thank you. I believe that later (i.e. 1800s) editions of St. Alphonsus' Theologia Moralis may have been modified, just like e.g. the Catechism of St. Peter Canisius was modified in the early 1800s to teach BoD, which the original doesn't. Also, what they sell as "Catechism of St. Pius X" is not the one he himself wrote as a Priest. His own doesn't teach any BoD.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 04:03:26 PM
Baptism and the Baptism of Desire

By Raymond Taouk (SSPX)

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm



What is the Church's teaching on the Necessity of Baptism?
It is by baptism that we are incorporated into the mystical body of Christ. However, what makes one a member of the Church primarily in a certain sense is faith, since even amongst the damned souls in hell there are those who have the baptismal character and yet are not members of the Church in any sense of the term. While the sacraments give a visible dimension to the faith, as an external profession of the Church, it is nevertheless true to state that faith is a more fundamental requirement for Church membership for those on earth.[1] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn1) For that reason the Church teaches that, “Baptism of water is really necessary by necessity of means, but extrinsically only, according to the positive will of God. But what is necessary only extrinsically can be supplied through something else; it was altogether fitting that this would be supplied through charity or perfect contrition, which are the best depositions". [2] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn2)

While for infants, baptism is the sole means of salvation, (as they cannot make an act of faith, which requires the use of reason), yet it may be rightly affirmed ask if  “regardless of the absolute necessity of baptism for salvation, are there not other means [than that of water] of providing for it? The Fathers [of the Church] admit to baptism of blood or martyrdom, and in a certain measure the baptism of desire, as a means of replacing the baptism of water."[3] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn3)

Fr. Marin-Sola states in his theological treaties on the sacraments: “Certain heretics have affirmed that no adult can be saved without receiving baptism itself before he dies, however much he would burn with desire for it, and that it would do him no good unless he were washed with water. Baius (in a proposition condemned by Pope V) also taught that charity was not always joined to the remission of sins.” He continues on to state “Against the second part (baptism of blood) there are hardly any adversaries, save for a few theologians who disagree over the manner in which martyrdom achieves its effect.” [4] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn4)

The great theologian and doctor of the Church, St. Alphonsus Liguori (1691-1787) teaches the same saying:  “But baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true Baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called “of wind␅ [flaminis] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost Who is called a wind [flamen]. Now it is de fide that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam De Presbytero Non Baptizato and the Council of Trent, Session 6, Chapter 4, where it is said that no one can be saved “without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.”-    Moral Theology Book 6.


Is this the constant teaching of the Church?
This doctrine has been taught by doctors of the Church throughout her history from the earliest days down to recent times: "the Doctrine that Baptism of Water may be replaced by the Baptism of desire or by Baptism of Blood is not, as is some times supposed, a recent development of doctrine, it is taught for instance by St. Gregory nαzιanzen in a sermon preached in 381,[5] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn5) where mention is made of the Baptism of water, of Martyrdom and of tears. It must be observed that we do not hold that there are three kinds of Baptism, for in the creed read in the Mass, we confess one Baptism for the remission of sins, the actual reception of which, however, may be replaced in either of the two ways mentioned." [6] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn6)

Archbishop Francis Patrick Kenrick (1796-1863), while expounding on the necessity of baptism points out that:

"The martyr alone, or any other who desired the laver, but could not receive it, was excepted: because the desire of the heart is equivalent to the act itself, where necessity prevents its performance. Of the soldier, who took the place of a weak apostate, and filled up the glorious band of forty martyrs, St. Basil remarks: "he was baptized in Christ, not by another, but by his own faith; not in water, but in his own blood." "If any one receive not baptism," says St. Cyril of Jerusalem, "he is void of salvation, unless the martyrs alone, who without water receive the kingdom: for the Saviour having ransomed the world by His cross, and His side being pierced, water and blood issued from it, so that in time of peace some are baptized in water, and others, in time of persecution, are baptized in their own blood: for the Saviour calls martyrdom baptism, saying: 'Can you drink the chalice which I drink, and be baptized with the baptism wherewith I am baptized?" (A Treatise on Baptism and a Treatise on Confirmation, by Francis Patirck Kenrick, 1852 edition, page 85)


Baptism of desire is not the sacrament of baptism and yet applying the term “baptism” to the baptism of blood and baptism of desire has been a practice of the Church for centuries. Even if it is not a baptism in the strict sense, it nevertheless is a baptism in the analogical sense. Just as receiving the Eucharist by making a spiritual “Communion” is not a true Communion, but given the name “Spiritual Communion” in the analogical sense. In both cases, no one is denying the primary term. On the same point, St. Albert the Great says that the baptism of blood and the baptism of desire can only be called baptism when water baptism is lacking.[7] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn7)

In this sense, "Baptisms of desire" and "Baptism of blood" are not sacraments, but simply fulfil the requirements when the sacrament cannot be received due to extraordinary circuмstances. Thus, one speaks metaphorically of "different Baptisms" yet they all obtain the same sanctifying grace. In fact, Our Lord Himself spoke of different Baptisms during His public ministry. There was "the Baptism wherewith I am to be baptized" (Lk. 12:50), referring to a Baptism of blood, which was His crucifixion. Describing the descent of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, he says "For John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost, not many days hence" (Act. 1:5).

Concerning the necessity of the sacraments for salvation Peter Lombard (1160 AD) points out that, “God did not bind his power by the Sacraments.”[8] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn8) In other words, God is not bound by the sacraments to draw men to heaven (Cf. Job 33:15-18). St. Thomas Aquinas affirms the same as he points out “It belongs to the excellence of Christ power, that He (Christ) could bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the exterior sacrament.”[9] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn9)

In fact, if we turn to the authority of the Church Fathers we also find that their unanimity on the point gives us a sure certitude for this teaching since  “the unanimity of the Fathers (Consensus Patrum), in matters of faith and morals, begets complete certainty and commands assent, because they, as a body, bear witness to the teaching and belief of the infallible Church, representing the Church herself. So the authority of the Fathers is binding only when they all agree upon a question of faith and morals. The consensus, however, need not be absolute; a moral agreement suffices, as, for instance, when some of the greatest Fathers testify to a doctrine of the Church, and the rest, though quite aware of it, do not positively oppose it.” [10] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn10)


What does it mean to belong to the Church by desire’ or ‘longing’?
St. Thomas Aquinas states that" a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence, it is written (Apoc. 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this, it is written (Is. 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shall you be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable." [11] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn11) He also states "Secondly, the sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some ill-chance he is forestalled by death before receiving Baptism. Moreover, such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism, which desire is the outcome of "faith that works by charity," whereby God, Whose power is not tied to visible sacraments, sanctifies man inwardly. Hence Ambrose says of Valentinian, who died while yet a catechumen: "I lost him whom I was to regenerate: but he did not lose the grace he prayed for." [12] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn12)


What do you mean by an implicit desire?
By an implicit desire we mean that it requires some supernatural faith, but with invincible ignorance of the Church as St. Paul put it "He that comes to God must believe he is; and is a rewarder of them that seek him"  (Heb 11:6). Although the Church dose not judge the subjective dispositions of individuals is able to affirm this teaching based on the words of Christ, "Every one therefore that shall confess me before men, I will also confess him before my heavenly father" (Matt 10:32). This implicit faith also implies a detestation of sin (Acts 2:38) and a will to obey God (James 2:17, 2:24 -6, Jn 14:15, 1 Cor 13:2) as sin and the obstinacy to God are both incompatible to the state of grace which is essential to salvation.

By an implicit faith in God the Church does not mean a mere knowledge of God (as can be derived from reason alone) but a supernatural knowledge which is accompanied by a supernatural act of faith (Heb 11:16, Rom 5:1-5, Rom 10:13). In declaring that baptism may be had by desire or by blood, we can clearly see just how necessary it is to be baptized, since if one does not even have the efficacious desire to be baptized then he cannot be saved! This alone shows us the reality of the number of the damned since even an implicit desire for baptism requires a supernatural faith in God.

Thus, there is need of explicit faith in some article of faith. In the implicit desire of baptism, the act of Faith and hope must be explicit while it suffices for the desire of baptism itself to be implicit since he who desires the whole desires necessarily every part of that whole. For example if a Pagan is touched by the Martyrdom of some Catholic and then openly declares himself to believe in the God of this Christian who was put to death and in turn is himself put to death. He would have an explicit faith in Christ yet knowing little about Christ or the Sacraments. Our Lord has promised: "Every one that confess me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in Heaven." St. Augustine points out that these words are as universal in their scope and import as those in which our lord taught the general necessity of baptism of water. Hence he deduces the consequence that the remission of sins is secured by death for Christ, as certainly as by the sacrament of Baptism. [13] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn13)

St. Thomas States, "some have received the invisible sanctification without visible sacraments, and to their profit; but though it is possible to have the visible sanctification, consisting in a visible sacrament, without the invisible sanctification, it will be to no profit." Since, therefore, the sacrament of Baptism pertains to the visible sanctification; it seems that a man can obtain salvation without the sacrament of Baptism, by means of the invisible sanctification”.[14] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn14)

Further the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X states that "The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least IMPLICIT OF BAPTISM, and this is called Baptism of Desire".

It is for this reason that the Council of Trent teaches: "the state of grace cannot be had except through the laver of regeneration or a desire for it". [15] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn15)

The word “Votum” (as used by the Council of Trent) is not some superficial wish. That is not the meaning of the word at all. In fact, we must keep in mind that the very nature of faith means that it cannot be totally implicit as it is necessary to know and believe something divinely revealed with a supernatural faith. Laboring under invincible ignorance does not prevent a person from being converted to God by contrition or by an act of perfect Charity. In this act of contrition or perfect act of charity must be contained either an explicit or implicit desire to receive baptism by water according as the notion of baptism is or is not present to the mind of the Person who has turned his heart and mind to God.

St. Alphonsus Liguori in his commentary on the Works of the Council of Trent, openly states regarding the sacrament of Baptism that" Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament." [16] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn16)

St. Augustine also distinguishes between the sacrament of Baptism and the turning of the heart to God. He teaches that if either of these conditions cannot be secured, the other will be sufficient. A baptized Child is saved, without turning its heart to God, should it die before coming to the age of reason, and a man who turns his heart to God is saved without water baptism, provided he in no way despise the sacrament. [17] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn17)

Although those who obtain the state of grace by means of the baptism of Blood or Desire, are members of the Church, but they do not have “social membership” here on earth unless baptized with water, since they do not have the character[18] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn18) of baptism which is imprinted on the soul in the baptism of water. However, it is essential to maintain that we have only one baptism (Eph. 4:4-5) as in all cases it is baptism we are referring to and not another type of sacrament. While it is true to say that they do not receive the character of baptism, it is also true to affirm that they do not receive the total remission of temporal punishments due to sin.

In any case, there is no Baptism of desire without the supernatural virtue of faith and a certain explicit knowledge of the essential points of faith. Since the nature of faith means that is impossible, that it be completely implicit since faith is a supernatural light to the intelligence.


What does Scripture say on this issue?
In Sacred Scripture Our Lord alludes frequently to the internal dispositions, which must precede the outward manifestation of faith. In verses John 3:3-8, Christ speaks of Baptism five times but Baptism of water only once. For instance, He mentions the man "who is born of the spirit" (6, 8). St. Thomas Aquinas discussed the verse concerning Baptism by water (Jn 3:5) in the following context:

As it is written (I King 16:7), "Man sees those things that appear, but the Lord beholds the heart." Now a man who desires to be "born again of water and the Holy Ghost" by Baptism, is regenerated in the heart, though not in body: thus the Apostle says (Rom. 2:29) that "The circuмcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not of men but God."

The primacy of the spirit is nowhere more plainly expressed than when Cornelius, a Roman centurion, is received into the Church. Note the sequence of events:

"While Peter was yet speaking these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them that heard the word. And the faithful of the circuмcision, who came with Peter, were astonished, for that the grace of the Holy Ghost was poured out upon the Gentiles also.... And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" (Act. 10:44-48).

Archbishop Francis Patrick Kenrick (1796-1863), points out in this regard that: " Cornelius and his family received the Holy Ghost whilst Peter was yet speaking to them, before they were baptized. (Acts 10, 44) Others may receive grace in like manner, and be justified before the actual reception of the sacrament, the grace whereof they may receive by anticipation, God accepting the desire of their heart, and subsequently in its reception conferring more abundant grace. This may particularly happen in regard to such as are snatched out of life before they can receive the sacrament. The believer, whilst preparing for its reception, may suddenly feel the approach of death, when no minister of God or other person is at hand to make the sacred ablution. Relatives, under the influence of strong prejudices, may refuse to the dying man the opportunity of receiving the sanctifying rite. In such circuмstances his faith, desire, and love will no doubt obtain for him from the divine goodness the grace which he earnestly implores. This sentiment is not at all inconsistent with the belief of the necessity of Baptism for all who have it in their power to receive it, and of its efficacy, whereby grace is imparted to the worthy receiver." (The Catholic Doctrine on Justification, Archbishop Francis Patrick Kenrick, page 133-134)

Our Lord also stated, "Everyone that shall confess me before men, I will also confess before My Father in Heaven" (Mt. 10:32). This was later taken by many saints as a reference to Baptism of blood in place of water, as undergone by the catechumen martyrs.

Our Lord also declares; “Unless[19] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn19) you eat my flesh and drink my blood you shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven” (John 6:8). Now if we affirm that someone who dies in the state of grace without receiving the Eucharist will be saved we would obviously have to qualify the statement of Our Lord by adding "at least in desire".[20] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn20)  

What is more is that St. Paul clearly states that by the state of Justification (being in the state of grace) we are made sons of God  “Being justified therefore by faith, let us have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ: By whom also we have access through faith into this grace wherein we stand: and glory in the hope of the glory of the sons of God” ( Romans 5:1).

Now St. Paul also affirms “And if sons, heirs also; heirs indeed of God and joint heirs with Christ” - Romans 5:17 (See also Titus 3:7).  Hence, it clearly follows that if we die justified we indeed shall attain to the reward of the just, which is eternal life.


Doesn't this go against the Dogma "No Salvation outside the Church"?
No. The Dogma "No Salvation outside the Church" is an objective judgment based on the words of Christ and Church teaching. The Church however by means of this does not propose to judge the internal dispositions of individuals as this judgment is reserved to God alone for the Church does not Judge the internals or the dead for that matter, she judges objective facts. With this in mind, we must further affirm that even if we distinguish the visible, structural elements of the Church from the spiritual life of grace flowing in her members (body and soul of the Church) they only designate differently the same Church.[21] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn21) We must affirm this fact since we must never forget that there is no belonging to the soul of the Church if one refuses to belong to its body[22] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn22). Since what is meant by "the Body of the Church" is simply the visible Society of the Roman Catholic Church, while by the term "the Soul of the Church" we are simply referring to the supernatural bonds of faith, hope and Charity.

The Church is necessary for all for salvation. This necessity is not only one of precept[23] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn23) but also of means (either as a cause or condition without which one cannot be saved) and this at least in desire. Disobedience to this command would forestall salvation.

As regards those who belong to the Church St. Augustine points out that, "When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body . . . All who are within in heart are saved in the unity of the ark" (Baptism 5:28:39). Yet we must keep in mind that no one who positively repudiates the Church can be said to belong to the Church in any sense. As St. Cyprian put it: "he will not have God for his Father who would not have the Church for his mother."

Pope Pius XII exclaimed the same when he stated, "those who do not belong to the visible Body of the Catholic Church . . . we ask each and every one of them to correspond to the interior movements of grace, and to seek to withdraw from that state in which they cannot be sure of their salvation. For even though by an unconscious desire and longing they have a certain relationship with the Mystical Body of the Redeemer, they still remain deprived of those many heavenly gifts and helps which can only be enjoyed in he Catholic Church. Therefore may they enter into Catholic unity and, joined with us in the one, organic Body of Jesus Christ, may they together with us run on to the one Head in the society of glorious love".[24] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn24)

Further more St. Robert Bellarmine in his work" De Ecclesia Militante" states "there are those who belong to the soul [of the Church] and not the body, as [are] catechumens or the excommunicated, if indeed they have charity [state of grace], which can happen." Again he also affirms that "Catechumens however if not in re at least in voto are in the Church and are therefore able to be saved."[25] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn25)

While such persons are said to belong to the Soul of the Church it's important to keep in mind that no body can be said to belong to the soul of the Church if he does not at least desire to belong to the body of the Church.

Ultimately, to understand this dogma we must primarily understand primarily that when the Church declares it to an infallible to truth that "There is no Salvation outside the Church", she (the Church) is making an "Objective" judgment. She is not making a "Subjective" Judgment! She judges from the facts and hence she does not seek to judge the individual dispositions of men. This is for God alone. She judges from the facts. These facts are that those who separate themselves from the Church or those who are not part of her have not communion with her and with this knowledge and the Truths of the gospel she can unhesitatingly declare with Christ (her divine founder) that those who reject the Church reject salvation (Matt 18:17). The Church does not claim to judge each individual person, but errors. Hence, those who hold to these errors and die in them cannot be saved. This is precisely how this dogma is to be understood.

St. Thomas Aquinas when speaking of the salvation of infidels states that “Granted that everyone is bound to believe something explicitly, no untenable conclusion follows even if someone is brought up in the forest or among wild beasts. For it pertains to divine providence to furnish everyone with what is necessary for salvation, provided that of  his part there is no hindrance. Thus, if someone so brought up followed the direction of natural reason in seeking good and avoiding evil, we must most certainly hold that God would either reveal to him through internal inspiration what had to be believed, (in which case a desire for baptism would still be necessary) or would send some preacher of the faith to him as he sent Peter to Cornelius (Acts 10:20).” [26] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn26)

In dealing with the same issue St. Bonaventure states that “God obliges no one to do the impossible and therefore it must be admitted that the baptism of desire without the baptism of water is sufficient, provided the person in question has the will to receive the baptism of water, but is prevented from doing so before he dies." [27] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn27)

As early as 1713 Clement XI condemned in his dogmatic Bull "Unigenitus" the proposition of the Jensenist Quesnel that affirmed that “no grace is given outside the Church” just as Alexander VIII has already condemned in 1690 the Jansenistic proposition of Arnauld that “Pagans, Jєωs, heretics, and other people of the sort, receive no influx [of grace] whatsoever from Jesus Christ”.
A dilemma that we pose for those who deny this teaching (baptism of desire) is that when Pope Boniface VIII declared that there "Outside the Church there is no salvation nor remission of sins"[28] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn28). We all agree that a person can be justified outside the Church. However, this justification means remission of sins, because it puts one in the state of grace. Thus, if we are to take this Bull rigorously as the Feeneyites wish[29] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn29), then we must say also that there can be no justification/remission of sins before entrance in the Church/water Baptism. How is it that such persons will often admit that one can be justified before baptism of water and then at the same time declare that such justified persons are still totally outside the Church and are not members of the Church in any sense of the word? This goes directly against the words of Pope Boniface VIII who made it clear that "Outside the Church is no salvation nor remission of sins". This must obviously mean that those who are justified without water baptisms are indeed members in some sense of the term or else one could never admit that a person could be justified (have the remission of their sins) before baptism (by water).

It is only with a proper understanding of the faith that we are able to put the Church's teaching on this issue in its proper context, without avoiding excess or defect. For that same reason, it is worth noting that the Church has always condemned the following as errors opposed to the faith:[30] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftn30)

First error: "Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." (Proposition XV).

Second error that: "Man may, in the observance of any religion whatever, find the way of eternal salvation and arrive at eternal salvation." (Proposition XVI).

Third error: "Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ." (Proposition XVII).

Fourth error: "Protestantism is nothing more than another form of the same true Christian religion, in which form it is given to please God equally as in the Catholic Church." (Proposition XVIII).



Conclusion:
While it might seem insignificant to have given an in-depth analysis to this question on baptism. Yet like in all questions of controversy, the elaboration of the truth on any given point of doctrine is essential for a clear understand of what we are required to believe as Catholics.

This teaching of the Church far from taking away the obligation to be baptized or to enter the Church rather affirms to us not only the necessity for entering the Church but also the necessity for baptism. It shows us the real implications for willfully neglecting to receive baptism and enter the Church, which is the sole ark of Salvation. Even if the Church teaches that it is possible to attain salvation by of the "baptism of desire" or "Baptism of Blood", she is not teaching that it is the ordinary means of salvation for anyone. It would only be by a moral miracle that a person could be saved in such a manner, since what is by definition beyond the ordinary is extraordinary. There is no question of individuals being saved by their own efforts, without God's grace, and therefore outside the Church. On the contrary, it is stated that because these individuals are holding to the true teaching of Christ that they are joined invisibly to the Church. Thus, strictly speaking, one does not say "non-Catholics may be saved" or "Protestants can go to heaven." There are no non-Catholics in the Church and there are no non-Catholics in heaven. The only souls in heaven are those who have joined themselves to the Church in fact or desire.





[1] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref1) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref1) Cf. Summa Theologica III Q. 8. Art 3
[2] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref2) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref2) AD. TANQUEREY, A Manual of Dogmatic Theology, Vol II, 1959, Pg. 229
[3] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref3) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref3) Dictionnaire de Theologie Catholique, Section on Baptism - Bapteme d'apres les peres Grecs et Latins.
[4] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref4) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref4) De Sacramentis, (BAC, 1954), 69.
[5] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref5) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref5) Orat. 39, In Sancta Lumina, 17; P.G. 35; 356
[6] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref6) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref6) Outlines of Dogmatic Theology, Sylvester J. Hunter, S.J. (London, Longmans Green & Co) 1896, Vol III, No. 696, Pg. 228
[7] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref7) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref7) Opera Omnia Tomus XXVI, pp.35-40, See also De Baptismo Q.I, art. 7, De Divisione Baptismo
[8] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref8) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref8) DTC Col. 537
[9] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref9) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref9) Summa Theologica III, Q. 64, Art. 3. He also states elsewhere “God did not bind his power to the sacraments, so as to be unable to bestow the sacramental effect without conferring the sacrament’ – Ibid, Art. 7.
[10] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref10) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref10) Manual of Patrology, by Rev. Bernard Schid, O.S. B, Herder Book Co., 1917, Pg.  31.
[11] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref11) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref11) - Summa Theologica, III, q 66. a 11
[12] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref12) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref12) Cf. Summa Theologica III, q68, a 2
[13] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref13) De Civitate Dei, 13,7.
[14] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref14) Summa Theologica III, q68, a 2
[15] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref15) DzB 796.
[16] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref16) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref16) St. Alphonsus Liguori on the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128 -129 (published by James Duffy, Dublin, 10 Wellington Quay).
[17] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref17) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref17) De Baptismo, IV.25,32.
[18] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref18) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref18) St. Thomas states (Cf. Summa Theologica, III, Q63) that the purpose of the Character is to depute/ordain us for the Public worship of God in this life, since in the next life it will have no purpose as such even though it shall not be blotted out as the Council of Trent points out (Dz 852). This Character is a spiritual power or potency by which we participate in the priesthood of Christ, either actively (as is the case for priests) or passively (as is the case for the faithful) so that we may render public worship to God as members of Catholic Church. Yet this does not prevent an individual by means of virtue or religion of rendering private worship to God and directing their acts God as desiring to be united to God and his Church.
[19] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref19) Note that in both John 3:5 and John 6:8 the same Latin word “nisi” is used for unless/except.
[20] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref20) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref20) St. Thomas Aquinas points this out when dealing with the question of the Eucharist and its necessity for salvation - (Summa Theologica, III, Q73, Art. 3).
[21] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref21) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref21) Cf. Mystici Corporis # 62f, #1063f, Satis Cognitum #543.
[22] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref22) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref22) Billot, De Eccl. Pg323
[23] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref23) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref23) 1 Thess. 5:12-13, Heb. 13:7, 17; Matt. 16:15-18; 10:14, Luke 10:16, Acts 20:28
[24] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref24) Mystici Corporis 103
[25] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref25) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref25) De Ecclesia Militante, Lib. III, Cap. 3
[26] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref26) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref26) De Veritate, Q14, Art. 11 ad 1.  
[27] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref27) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref27) St. Bonaventure, In Sent. IV, d.4,P.2,a.I,q.I.
[28] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref28) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref28) Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302 Feen
[29] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref29) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref29) “Feeneyites” – The Followers of Fr. Feeney, who denied the Church’s teaching on the Baptism of desire and blood. His followers deny the possibility to anyone who has not received baptism by water to enter the kingdom of heaven, without exception.
[30] (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref30) (http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/bapdesire.htm#_ftnref30) Pius IX: Principal errors concerning the Church, Syllabus, Dec. 8, 1884
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 15, 2020, 05:07:39 PM
What is the Church's teaching on the Necessity of Baptism?
No need whatsoever to post a mile long dissertation.....

SESSION THE SEVENTH

DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

This ^^ is the Church's teaching on the Necessity of Baptism.

Could it be more simple?

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 05:18:50 PM
What is a BOD if not justification by faith alone? He starts out saying that "The heretics say that no sacrament is necessary" - a BOD is not a sacrament. Saying that a BOD suffices is to say no sacrament is necessary. Where am I misquoting him? The only sacrament he allows the desire for, is (spiritual) communion.
You know this isn't true since you've already read the quote Séan gave.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 05:29:10 PM
No need whatsoever to post a mile long dissertation.....

SESSION THE SEVENTH

DECREE ON THE SACRAMENTS

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

This ^^ is the Church's teaching on the Necessity of Baptism.

Could it be more simple?
Apparently it could, since you do not understand what you are reading here.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 05:51:54 PM
Yes, this is a big problem with the circuмcision position.  I personally do not believe that circuмcision remitted Original Sin, as it were, ex opere operato.  So in the OT there were no just women who were saved, not even the likes of St. Ann?  There's something missing with the circuмcision theory.  St. Paul seemed to indicate that OT justification came through faith in the coming Redeemer.

And then there's Trent:


Quote
CHAPTER I.
On the Inability of Nature and of the Law to justify man.

The holy Synod declares first, that, for the correct and sound understanding of the doctrine of Justification, it is necessary [Page 31] that each one recognise and confess, that, whereas all men had lost their innocence in the prevarication of Adam-having become unclean, and, as the apostle says, by nature children of wrath, as (this Synod) has set forth in the decree on original sin,-they were so far the servants of sin, and under the power of the devil and of death, that not the Gentiles only by the force of nature, but not even the Jєωs by the very letter itself of the law of Moses, were able to be liberated, or to arise, therefrom; although free will, attenuated as it was in its powers, and bent down, was by no means extinguished in them.

https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html (https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html)

(https://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html)Shawn side-stepped the issue when I brought it up with a straw man stuffed with imaginary claims on my part that one couldn't follow St. Alphonsus and accusations of "grievous error" in St. Alphonsus and the pre-Vatican II Church that made him a saint/doctor that spelled out an interregnum well before Vat II.  

St. Paul indeed indicated that OT justification came through faith, and spent chapters of Romans pointing that out with regard to the OT saint of saving faith, Father Abraham. One could argue that Abraham's faith was not implicit - Christ said Father Abraham "saw his day and was glad" in the Gospel of John - but here's my point again, differently worded.

Even if one were to maintain that one could be justified by circuмcision, it would be true that one could also be justified under the old dispensation by, as St. Alphonsus says, "perfect conversion to God by contrition and love of God above all things" moved by the grace ("wind") of the Holy Ghost.

If one could also be justified that way after the promulgation of the Gospel, it appears to me then that Trent would be just blowing so much smoke in saying that the manner of justification, under the "law of grace," "since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof."  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 05:54:19 PM
It was highly disputed among the Church Fathers how the OT just were actually justified and/or saved.  Some Church Fathers actually believed that the reports of the dead coming from their tombs after the Resurrection was for the purpose of their getting baptized, so strongly did they believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation.  Others felt that circuмcision was required ... leaving the problem of whether the "noble pagan" could be saved.  Others felt that it was faith in the coming Redeemer.  It's not entirely clear.  All the Church Fathers agree, however, that the new economy of salvation after the "promulgation of the Gospel" (the term of St. Thomas) was different and that one could not draw conclusions from the OT dispensation to the requirements for salvation after Our Lord.

I personally believe that the OT just were temporarily raised from the dead and baptized.  If that was not the case, then I believe that God still in an extraordinary manner bestowed the character of Baptism on the OT just so they could enter heaven, since I regard the Baptismal character as being what gives the human soul the capacity to see God as He is in the beatific vision, a faculty which human beings lack by nature.  It is also the mark by which God recognizes in baptized souls the image of His Son and thus admitting them into the family of the Holy Trinity as adopted sons.  That is my biggest issue with Baptism of Desire.  I would be much less averse to the theory if the BoD theorists actually held that those who are justified by BoD somehow receive this character in an extraordinary manner rather than the common opinion that anyone can enter into the Beatific Vision without it.


Thanks for addressing the issue directly and squarely.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 05:57:43 PM
Right, but he's speaking about the OT economy of salvation.  He clearly teaches that explicit faith in at least the Holy Trinity and Incarnation are necessary for salvation "since the promulgation of the Gospel" (i.e. in NT times).
Exactly. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 15, 2020, 05:59:41 PM
Very interesting, thank you. I believe that later (i.e. 1800s) editions of St. Alphonsus' Theologia Moralis may have been modified, just like e.g. the Catechism of St. Peter Canisius was modified in the early 1800s to teach BoD, which the original doesn't. Also, what they sell as "Catechism of St. Pius X" is not the one he himself wrote as a Priest. His own doesn't teach any BoD.
And very interesting itself. And you'd be just the guy to get to the bottom of it. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2020, 07:35:02 PM
Sean, the definitions of “implicit faith” are not consistent between all those you list.  That’s the problem.  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 15, 2020, 08:02:55 PM
From what I've seen explicit baptism of desire(a catechumen consciously wishing for baptism) has been taught by various theologians throughout basically the entirety of Church history, and has strong basis in Trent. And implicit baptism of desire in the sense of an earlier stage catechumen, who doesn't yet understand the sacraments well enough to wish for baptism, but who wants to be Catholic and believes in the Trinity etc., seems like it could be a logical extension of explicit BOD, even though there doesn't appear to be as much support for it. 

But for the invincibly ignorant and infidels, 99.9% of support for it seems to come during and after the 1800s. I want to understand the logic behind it because almost every clergyman alive teaches it, and even +ABL taught it, but it just seems like a novelty and a flat-out contradiction of EENS to me. I don't believe that the entirety of the clergy could have fallen into heresy on such a basic dogma, but as of yet I haven't seen any good arguments defending their position. It's bizarre really.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 15, 2020, 08:49:25 PM
I think that two different considerations are typically conflated in this notion of "implicit" Baptism of Desire.

There's the idea of implicit desire for Baptism proper and then idea of implicit faith.

So, for instance, I am converted to the Church and want to become a Catholic, but I do not form the explicit intention "I desire to be Baptized."  One can see the DESIRE here to be implicit in the desire to become a Catholic.

Then there's the notion of implicit faith, which many have promoted.  "I am a well-meaning pagan who follow my lights regarding the natural law."

So this discussion gets confused the the degrees of "implicit"-ness, i.e. the degrees of separation from the explicit.

It's absolutely indisputed that supernatural faith is required for salvation.  Lots of modern BoDers focus on the "desire" (an act of the will) but ignore the intellectual requirements for salvation, as if one can will to have supernatural faith without believing anything.  What's at issue is what are the requirements to have supernatural faith.  Can faith be implicit in my desire to know God?  All theologians agree that SOME things must be explicitly believed, with the vast majority (and absolute unanimity before the year 1600) holding that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In other words, no Jєω, Muslim, or any kind of infidel can possibly be saved.

This was believed by all Catholics everywhere for the first 1600 years of Church history, meeting the criteria for infallible dogma based on the OUM.  Yet some Jesuits felt they were permitted to theorize that these were not necessary and that it was sufficient for supernatural faith just to believe in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  This was motivated by the desire to extend the possibility of salvation to infidels.

Of course, recent Novus Ordo developments hold that atheists can be saved without ANY explicit belief whatsoever.

I hold that Rewarder God theory is objectively heretical based on the teachings of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Those who lived before Vatican II might be excused of formal heresy because the OUM had not clearly been defined, but this notion must now be rejected as absolutely heretical.
When has it been explicitly defined exactly, if not before Vatican II?  And why don't any of the trad clergy seem to realize this?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 15, 2020, 09:11:14 PM
When has it been explicitly defined exactly, if not before Vatican II?  And why don't any of the trad clergy seem to realize this?

I think Lad meant Vatican I, not Vatican II.

But I already supplied a quote from St. Thomas explaining that implicit faith (his term) suffices, so long as there is an explicit faith in at least one article of faith.

Yet I remain unclear about what precisely he thinks Vatican I said which would purport to annul the common and constant teaching of the OUM (and the EM, per Trent) on BOD.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2020, 09:50:18 PM

Quote
From what I've seen explicit baptism of desire(a catechumen consciously wishing for baptism) has been taught by various theologians throughout basically the entirety of Church history, and has strong basis in Trent.
The whole 'explicit' vs 'implicit' has caused a grand scale of confusion.  That's the problem.  St Thomas and St Alphonsus use the terms specifically, while Modernists/liberals use it too generally.
.

Quote
And implicit baptism of desire in the sense of an earlier stage catechumen, who doesn't yet understand the sacraments well enough to wish for baptism, but who wants to be Catholic and believes in the Trinity etc., seems like it could be a logical extension of explicit BOD, even though there doesn't appear to be as much support for it.
I would say that what you describe above is an orthodox theory of BOD, which St Thomas and Alphonsus would agree with.  The key elements are there, 1) "wants to be catholic" = desire for the Church = desire for Baptism.  2) Believes in the Trinity, which includes belief in Christ's Incarnation (if you believe that Christ is God then it's logical to say you believe He came to earth and was born of a Virgin), therefore both of the minimal doctrines necessary to join the Church are present.
.
The heresies of BOD arise when people start saying that "implicit desire" is sufficient for BOD, but they define "implicit desire" in some abstract/non-catholic way.  When the catechumen has no understanding/desire for 1) baptism, 2) entering the Church, 3) the doctrines of the Incarnation and Trinity....then it is impossible for him to have "implicit desire" for baptism.
.
As the Holy Office letter (1800s?) to the missionaries said, the native indians could not be baptized (even if on their death bed) if they did not have an understanding/acceptance of (at least) the Incarnation/Trinity.  When St Thomas and St Alphonsus spoke of "implicit desire of baptism", their definition ALWAYS included these 2 doctrines, as a necessity.
.
Thus, when we hear of +ABL or any other prelate who speaks of the "invincibly ignorant" having BOD, this is impossible, for no one can desire baptism/Church without knowing/accepting these minimum doctrines of the Faith.  Contrary to what V2's Lumen Gentium heretically proposed, those who desire to do "god's will" and who are "sincere" in seeking God cannot be saved in such a state.  Those that seek God will infallibly find Him, in His Church, this Scripture tells us many times.  But UNTIL they find the Church, and UNTIL they learn/accept (at least) the Incarnation/Trinity, they cannot and do not have either the minimum implicit nor explicit faith/desire for baptism necessary for salvation.  These were the errors that Fr Feeney was fighting way back in the 40s.
.
Thus, it is heretical to say that "good willed" joos, muslims, pagans, etc can be saved.  For anyone who has learned enough to know/accept the Trinity/Incarnation is no longer a joo, a muslim or a pagan.  Once someone believes in these 2 doctrines, they are a catechumen, thus eligible for BOD, if they are truly sincere, and if they die before actual reception of the sacrament.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 15, 2020, 10:07:17 PM
I think Lad meant Vatican I, not Vatican II.

But I already supplied a quote from St. Thomas explaining that implicit faith (his term) suffices, so long as there is an explicit faith in at least one article of faith.

Yet I remain unclear about what precisely he thinks Vatican I said which would purport to annul the common and constant teaching of the OUM (and the EM, per Trent) on BOD.
Fair enough that he probably meant Vatican I.

Ugh so the issue is there are multiple conversations going on here that are all being labeled "BOD."

Ladislaus has opinions on other things related to BOD and EENS.  But what's *really* getting him here is the idea of "implicit faith", ie. that Jєωs, Muslims, Pagans, etc. could be saved by implicit BOD, faith in a God that rewards, and perfect contrition.  The meat of his argument is that *this* contradicts the Tradition of the Church for the first 1600 years of its history.

I suspect that going along with this, Ladislaus would disagree with your interpretation of St Thomas.  At any rate, his opinion alone, while weighty, wouldn't be OUM.  

I think he's just saying Vatican I clearly established the *idea* of OUM, not that it contradicts BOD per se.

Now here's the thing.  I think what *you* are arguing for as OUM is just the idea of baptism of desire more generally, which Ladislaus opposes, but less strongly.  But that's a SEPARATE conversation than the conversation about whether salvation by implicit faith is possible.

Here's where I hit a roadblock though.  Its really hard for me to believe that everyone but Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen is just ignorant of something that's easily demonstrable theologically by the OUM.  Almost all of the clergy, whether they take a more HOC position like the FSSP, the Traditionalist R and R priests in the SSPX or SSPX Resistance, *and* the Sedevacantists *all* seem to take the position here.  I could see possible explanations of the discrepancy if some group were to agree with Fr. Feeney (at least on EENS, if not straight up BOD.)  If the Sedevacantists held to the stricter view, perhaps we could say this is the poisoned fruit of V2.  If the R and R were stricter, perhaps we could hold that the issue is giving too much weight to the non infallible teachings of a narrow period of history, say, 1870 to 1960 or so.  But the thing is, *both* groups generally hold to Archbishop Lefebvre's comparatively "loose" EENS that says all sorts of religious people *can* be saved in spite of their errors, not just erring materially Catholics, but also Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.  Almost all of the Sedevacantist and R and R clergy believe salvation is *theoretically open* to such people, just despite their religion and not because of it.  Now I think there's room to make a mistake here.  Just because something *can* happen doesn't mean that its going to, or that we can count on it.  But the issue is, has God dogmatically ruled out the possibility, or not?  Ladislaus (and a few other posters here, and Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen in the historical realm) would say that he has, but the *vast* majority of Trad clergy, both sedevacantist and non sedevacantist, would say he hasnt.

And I don't see nearly enough clear evidence to say that almost all of the Trad clergy are just brazenly wrong here.  Now if someone could truly prove to me that I was obliged to believe that anyone who isn't a formal and visible member of the Church is damned, I would certainly accept it.  But the problem is the "proof" is usually just  verbatim quoting the "plain meaning" of Florence or Unam Sanctum, which the Trad clergy are certainly aware of.  ie. if just quote bombing florence isn't convincing to such intelligent people as Archbishop Lefebvre, Fr. Cekada, Bishop Williamson, Bishop Sanborn, or really pretty much any of the priests and bishops even on the far end of the Trad spectrum, I don't really see why it should be convincing to me.  "Lol I've read Florence I know more than basically all the clergy in the world about EENS."  To be fair to Ladislaus, I know he went to seminary and has been a Catholic for a long time.  He certainly knows more than *me*.

Still finding this one hard to believe TBH.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 15, 2020, 10:55:20 PM
Quote
Its really hard for me to believe that everyone but Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen is just ignorant of something that's easily demonstrable theologically by the OUM.

Arianism was accepted by 95% (maybe more) of the clergy and faithful, despite it being condemned twice(!), by councils, until finally a 3rd council ended it.
.
321 - Arian was denounced for his heresy.
325 - Ecuмenical Council of Nicea condemned Arianism.
335 - The heresy still raging, St Athanasius is expelled from his diocese for preaching against it.
338 - St Athanasius exiled again.
341 - Council at Antioch (non Ecuмenical) condemns Arianism.
356 - St Athanasius exiled for 3rd time.
362/364 - Exiled 4th and 5th time.
373 - St Athanasius died.
381 - Ecuмenical council of Constantinople condemns Arianism and creates the Nicene Creed.
600s - Arianism was still held by some Germanic tribes up until the 7th century.
1900s - Utinarians hold some Arian beliefs, as do the Jehovah Witnesses, by elevating God the Father above Christ.
.
The point is, some heresies don't die quickly (or fully).  The difficulty of "no salvation outside of the Church" has been a difficulty from Day 1, and will remain a problem (humanly speaking) for the Church til the end of the world.  This is why EENS is called "The Doctrine" because it is the most problematic to accept and the most attacked by the Church's enemies.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 04:35:51 AM
Apparently it could, since you do not understand what you are reading here.
According to the teaching of the Church at Trent, I understand that the matter of the sacrament of baptism is water, and that the sacrament of baptism is necessary for salvation.

That is what the Church teaches, that is what is written, that is what I read, that is why I understand it as I do. I do not know how to get around understanding it as taught by the Church at Trent, how do you get around this?

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 04:55:54 AM
You know this isn't true since you've already read the quote Séan gave.
Whatever quote Sean gave, in my quote, St. Alphonsus teaches that heretics say that no sacrament is necessary. Certainly we all agree that all sacraments are not necessary for everyone, but dying without at least the sacrament of baptism, then saying that person possibly enjoyed a BOD before death and on that account saved, is in fact saying that no sacrament is necessary. It's really not at all complicated.

What is a BOD if not salvation via faith alone? Is it salvation via desire alone? 

 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 16, 2020, 05:10:47 AM
Arianism was accepted by 95% (maybe more) of the clergy and faithful, despite it being condemned twice(!), by councils, until finally a 3rd council ended it.
.
321 - Arian was denounced for his heresy.
325 - Ecuмenical Council of Nicea condemned Arianism.
335 - The heresy still raging, St Athanasius is expelled from his diocese for preaching against it.
338 - St Athanasius exiled again.
341 - Council at Antioch (non Ecuмenical) condemns Arianism.
356 - St Athanasius exiled for 3rd time.
362/364 - Exiled 4th and 5th time.
373 - St Athanasius died.
381 - Ecuмenical council of Constantinople condemns Arianism and creates the Nicene Creed.
600s - Arianism was still held by some Germanic tribes up until the 7th century.
1900s - Utinarians hold some Arian beliefs, as do the Jehovah Witnesses, by elevating God the Father above Christ.
.
The point is, some heresies don't die quickly (or fully).  The difficulty of "no salvation outside of the Church" has been a difficulty from Day 1, and will remain a problem (humanly speaking) for the Church til the end of the world.  This is why EENS is called "The Doctrine" because it is the most problematic to accept and the most attacked by the Church's enemies.
Here's my difficulty though.  Its one thing for 95% of the clergy to embrace a heresy.  That's easy enough for me to imagine.  In this case we're primarily talking about the minority of the clergy that already rejected the heresy.  Like basically what I'm hearing from you guys is, 95% of the clergy accepted Arianism, but out of the 5% that specifically formed a movement to combat Arianism, 95% of *those* guys are also crypto Arians. 

I don't know if you are a convert from Protestantism, but I was, and my father is a Baptist "pastor" (and I only say this part to combat the inevitable accusation of personal bias... I don't believe he'll be saved as he is, nor that he is invincibly ignorant).  Protestants are constantly stumbling over themselves to determine which doctrines are "non essential" and which doctrines they can still inter"commune" and see each other as part of "the invisible body of Christ" despite disagreeing on, and attending different churches over.  And Protestants will get very frustrated oftentimes when they hear that we don't believe we're all part of the same "kingdom of God", and that we don't believe in multi denominationalism, etc.  My point is, this doesn't disprove the extremely stringent position taken by Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen per se, but this *isn't necessary* in order to be a stumbling block to Protestants and to Catholics who want to get along well with Protestants.  That one technically allows God to work extraordinarily in the life of someone who is invincibly ignorant doesn't really do away with the "scandal" in their minds.

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 05:55:01 AM
Fair enough that he probably meant Vatican I.

Ugh so the issue is there are multiple conversations going on here that are all being labeled "BOD."

Ladislaus has opinions on other things related to BOD and EENS.  But what's *really* getting him here is the idea of "implicit faith", ie. that Jєωs, Muslims, Pagans, etc. could be saved by implicit BOD, faith in a God that rewards, and perfect contrition.  The meat of his argument is that *this* contradicts the Tradition of the Church for the first 1600 years of its history.

I suspect that going along with this, Ladislaus would disagree with your interpretation of St Thomas.  At any rate, his opinion alone, while weighty, wouldn't be OUM.  

I think he's just saying Vatican I clearly established the *idea* of OUM, not that it contradicts BOD per se.

Now here's the thing.  I think what *you* are arguing for as OUM is just the idea of baptism of desire more generally, which Ladislaus opposes, but less strongly.  But that's a SEPARATE conversation than the conversation about whether salvation by implicit faith is possible.

Yes, I meant Vatican I.  I'm so used to typing Vatican II that it was just a physical memory thing.

Absolutely, my problem is with implicit faith, and I have on my side St. Thomas Aquinas et al.  Fr. Fenton stated in the 1950s still that the explicit faith in the Holy Trinity/Incarnation position was the majority one.

With regard to the OUM, I believe that the reason a St. Alphonsus held that implicit faith theory was tenable was because the notion of OUM had not been clearly defined.  But when the Church has believed and taught something for 1600 years unanimously, from the beginning, if that isn't infallible OUM, then there's no such thing as infallible OUM.  Notice, of course, that many BoDers hold that BoD is OUM because so many theologians have believed in it since the time of the scholastics, but then reject the notion that explicit faith is OUM despite the fact that it was unanimously taught and believed by everyone for 1600 years prior to the Jesuit innovators.

As for BoD being part of OUM, it is clearly not.  Only ONE Church Father unequivocally hypothesized about a BoD, and then he (St. Augustine) ended up changing his mind in his later, more mature years, and issued some of the strongest anti-BoD statements in existence.  His protege, St. Fulgentius, rejected BoD in no uncertain terms.  St. Ambrose's statement is ambiguous and could be understood in several senses, and he also in other places rejected BoD.  We have about 5 or 6 Church Fathers (as Rahner admits) who rejected BoD explicitly and only one who temporarily and tentatively proposed it.  St. Augustine said that he went back and forth on the issue and then decided (at the time) that it "seemed to him that ..."  This is no statement of an authoritative Church teaching that came from the Apostles and was revealed doctrine.  When the majority of Church Fathers rejected BoD, there can hardly be a case made for it being OUM.  After the Fathers, there was hardly any mention of it until the 1100s when Peter Lombard was trying to decide between the opinions of Abelard (anti-BoD) and Hugh of St. Victor (pro-BoD).  He wrote to St. Bernard, who very tentatively sided with pro-BoD based on only the reason that he'd rather be wrong with Augustine than right with his own opinion.  That's hardly an authoritative statement, and evidently St. Bernard was not acquainted with the later works of St. Augustine where he emphatically rejected the notion.  So Lombard put it in his Sentences, considered perhaps THE foundation for the scholastic movement.  St. Thomas then went with it, and then it became viral.  But the history of this opinion clearly demonstrates that it's in the realm of speculative theology.

Now, whatever you want to think about BoD, I'm not that interested in the question.  I'm only interested in the contention that those who do not have an at least rudimentary explicit Catholic faith can be saved.  ALL OF THE VATICAN II ERRORS can be traced directly to this notion, the new ecclesiology, religious liberty, everything.

If those who are not visible members of the Church can be saved, then Vatican II's subsistence ecclesiology is in fact a profound statement of this reality, where the subsistent core of the Church consists in the visible body, but there are also in this "Church of Christ" many who are invisibly united to it.  When we have souls who are formally untied to the Church but materially separated, as would be the case in this scenario, then the notion of "separated brethren" makes sense, as does the notion that people can belong in varying degrees to the Church, etc.  If soteriology becomes subjectivized, and people please God and saves their souls based on their subjective dispositions, then religious liberty follows necessarily.  If people save their souls and please God by following their even-erroneous consciences, then since people have a right to save their souls and to please God, then they have right to follow said even-erroneous consciences.

Those who hold to this novel ecclesiology absolutely undermine any standing they have to criticize the Vatican II theology.  I myself, were I to be persuaded of implicit faith theory, would immediately drop all resistance to Vatican II and cease to be Traditional Catholic.  That is why this question is of central importance to me and why I disagree with Matthew here in claiming that it's of little importance.  EVERYTHING about Traditional Catholicism hinges on this, but +Lefebvre himself did not see it.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 06:25:10 AM
Whatever quote Sean gave, in my quote, St. Alphonsus teaches that heretics say that no sacrament is necessary. Certainly we all agree that all sacraments are not necessary for everyone, but dying without at least the sacrament of baptism, then saying that person possibly enjoyed a BOD before death and on that account saved, is in fact saying that no sacrament is necessary. It's really not at all complicated.

What is a BOD if not salvation via faith alone? Is it salvation via desire alone?  

 
It's baptism via the desire for baptism. Trent says that justification can be granted via the desire for baptism(or rather the intention to receive it). There's not really an argument to be made that explicit BOD is heretical.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 06:33:05 AM
Arianism was accepted by 95% (maybe more) of the clergy and faithful, despite it being condemned twice(!), by councils, until finally a 3rd council ended it.
.
321 - Arian was denounced for his heresy.
325 - Ecuмenical Council of Nicea condemned Arianism.
335 - The heresy still raging, St Athanasius is expelled from his diocese for preaching against it.
338 - St Athanasius exiled again.
341 - Council at Antioch (non Ecuмenical) condemns Arianism.
356 - St Athanasius exiled for 3rd time.
362/364 - Exiled 4th and 5th time.
373 - St Athanasius died.
381 - Ecuмenical council of Constantinople condemns Arianism and creates the Nicene Creed.
600s - Arianism was still held by some Germanic tribes up until the 7th century.
1900s - Utinarians hold some Arian beliefs, as do the Jehovah Witnesses, by elevating God the Father above Christ.
.
The point is, some heresies don't die quickly (or fully).  The difficulty of "no salvation outside of the Church" has been a difficulty from Day 1, and will remain a problem (humanly speaking) for the Church til the end of the world.  This is why EENS is called "The Doctrine" because it is the most problematic to accept and the most attacked by the Church's enemies.
So then, aren't all the priests at the SSPX and Resistance masses we go to obstinate heretics? A dogma they surely all know says "Outside of the Church there is no salvation" and they, to put it in the words of Trent, "twist those words into a meaningless formula". Should we all be looking to seek out the 1% of clergymen who don't teach implicit faith? 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 07:09:11 AM
It's baptism via the desire for baptism. Trent says that justification can be granted via the desire for baptism(or rather the intention to receive it). There's not really an argument to be made that explicit BOD is heretical.
Trent does not say that. Trent does not decide infallibly nor even positively that justification can or ever is granted via a desire for the sacrament, Trent never made that conclusion. What Trent actually says, and this is infallible, is that justification cannot take place without it.
That is the actual teaching of Trent.

Which is to say that even with it, there is no assurance whatsoever that justification takes place in those who have not been baptized and are outside of the Church.  

People who go around preaching that a desire for the sacrament certainly justifies or at least can justify because that is what Trent taught, are putting meaning to the teaching that is not in the teaching. They are coming to a conclusion not taught at Trent and is in fact, contrary to what Trent did teach regarding the necessity of the sacrament.





   
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 16, 2020, 07:09:27 AM

Now, whatever you want to think about BoD, I'm not that interested in the question.  I'm only interested in the contention that those who do not have an at least rudimentary explicit Catholic faith can be saved.  ALL OF THE VATICAN II ERRORS can be traced directly to this notion, the new ecclesiology, religious liberty, everything.



Ladislaus made a distinction between implicit BOD and implicit faith, and I agree that the distinction is important, but there is a connection between the two in an important sense.

Many of the problems in the Church today stem from a reaction to the Protestant revolt of the 16th century. While Ladislaus correctly identified the Jesuit response to the reality of large masses of men in the New World that had not been exposed to the Gospel, which of course has nothing to do with the Prot revolt, the Prot revolt contributed to the humanism (the "enlightenment" etc.) that influenced Jesuit thinking by exacerbating it with a spirit of a sort of "if the Prots emphasize this and make it a cause celebre it must be bad and the truth must be other."

The Prot emphasis I speak of is the the Biblical (and quite Catholic) doctrines of Predestination and divine election of the saints. Perhaps the Prot emphasis on this was in itself a reaction to early speculations in the Church (there was essentially only "the Catholic Church" in the West prior to the revolt) upon the discovery of the New World shortly before the revolt, a speculation which was taken up by the Jesuits in force shortly after. In any event, I think there was a gut, Catholic response in the other direction - an overemphasis on man's freedom of will - to the Prot emphasis of Luther and later Calvin etc. upon Predestination and divine election of the saints, and I propose that this response is a primary cause of the excessive development of BOD and the erosion of EENS.

Simply put, if man is free and God wills the salvation of all men and gives all a meaningful shot at salvation, how could those who have never heard the Gospel, or, later and now gone wild post-Vat II, men of "good faith" who were raised in other religions, not have a chance at salvation in their cultural "reality"?

But the old and quite Traditional Catholic doctrine of Predestination and election was succinctly set forth by Father Garrigou-Lagrange in his book Predestination thus:


Quote
From all these passages of Scripture, St. Augustine formu- 
lated this classical definition: "Predestination is the fore-
knowledge and preparedness on God's part to bestow the fa-
vors by which all those are saved who are to be saved." St.
Augustine is still more explicit on this point when he writes:
"God already knew, when He predestined, what He must do to bring
his elect to eternal life."


God determines whom He will save, and then provides them the means (or what is necessary) by which He has decided to save them. This is the classical Catholic, Augustinian (and as Father GL shows in his book, Thomistic) doctrine.

You see then with this understanding how it all falls into place: a) if God had determined to save by baptism (John 3:5), then the elect will be baptized; b) if God has determined that the Church be the portal on earth through which men enter heaven, they will be baptized and Catholic; c) if God has determined that the faith which saves men is the Catholic faith, the elect will have the Catholic faith - you could formulate thus regarding all the means established by God for salvation.

As should be apparent, all of the "problems" of the salvation of the non-baptized and the non-Catholic evaporate under the Traditional Catholic and Augustinian doctrine.  

Of course, post-Vatican II in the NO Church things have deteriorated so badly that the traditional, Catholic doctrine is not only gone but considered heretical (again, historically fueled by the reaction I mentioned, since its being held by many Protestants, which is ironic since they're now "brethren"). Related to this is the doctrine of predilection, which, again, is Augustinian and Thomistic - read Father GL's book. Simply stated, this means that God loves some more than others, and wills the salvation of some more than others. I mentioned this one time to a zealous NO Catholic, and was promptly labelled a heretic for saying such.

This is where we are, and the loss of the Traditional, Catholic (Augustinian and Thomistic) doctrine of Predestination and election underlies the manifestation in its symptoms in implied BOD, implicit faith and the current, effective denial of EENS.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 07:42:07 AM
Trent does not say that. Trent does not decide infallibly nor even positively that justification can or ever is granted via a desire for the sacrament, Trent never made that conclusion. What Trent actually says, and this is infallible, is that justification cannot take place without it.
That is the actual teaching of Trent.

Which is to say that even with it, there is no assurance whatsoever that justification takes place in those who have not been baptized and are outside of the Church.  

People who go around preaching that a desire for the sacrament certainly justifies or at least can justify because that is what Trent taught, are putting meaning to the teaching that is not in the teaching. They are coming to a conclusion not taught at Trent and is in fact, contrary to what Trent did teach regarding the necessity of the sacrament.

Council of Trent Session 6 Chapter 4:

Quote
A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 16, 2020, 07:47:46 AM
Quote
What is a BOD if not salvation via faith alone? Is it salvation via desire alone?
Many Modernists and those who have been liberalized/modernized in their catholic faith would believe that BOD applies to anyone who is "sincere" in their desire only (i.e. "Oh, wouldn't it be nice to go to heaven."  or  "I'm a good person, I love God, and I want to be saved....but I would never be a catholic.").
.
But as St Thomas and St Alphonsus (and Trent, and the Church Fathers, and many others) have said, BOD would only apply to a person who has taken actions.  1.  This would be studying the Faith by reading/talking/listening.  2.  Taking steps to come into the Church (i.e. taking classes).  3.  Most importantly, they must internally accept the Incarnation/Trinity and any other doctrines they have been taught.
.
Those that have done the ACTIONS above, could be qualified for BOD.  All others would not, because as Stubborn rightly points out, then that reduces BOD to a mere "wish" or "spiritual daydream" which is akin to the protestant's faith-alone heresy.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 07:59:54 AM
This is where we are, and the loss of the Traditional, Catholic (Augustinian and Thomistic) doctrine of Predestination and election underlies the manifestation in its symptoms in implied BOD, implicit faith and the current, effective denial of EENS.

I agree.  Bishop Williamson rightly traces the roots of subjectivism to the Renaissance, and the overemphasis on free will.  You also had the phenomenon of Molinism flaring up at about this time.  Also feeding into this trend was the discovery of the "New World."  I believe that the sentiments that Father Cekada once expressed, that it's inconceivable that all those people who had lived in the New World before its discovery, would be lost, likely contributed to the speculation.  But God put those souls there for a reason that's known only to Him.  We can't draw THEOLOGICAL conclusions based upon our own sense of what would and would not be right or just or fair or merciful of God to do.  How many people have lost or rejected the faith based upon the rhetorical question:  "How could a good God do such a thing?" when faced with some tragedy?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 16, 2020, 08:02:26 AM
Quote
Like basically what I'm hearing from you guys is, 95% of the clergy accepted Arianism, but out of the 5% that specifically formed a movement to combat Arianism, 95% of *those* guys are also crypto Arians. 
We're not saying they are crypto Arians, but just still infected with some of Arianisms' false ideals.  Let's remember that Arianism was attacking the divinity of Christ, as well as the Trinity, both of which are spiritual mysteries beyond human comprehension, so just because someone accepts Church doctrine on the matter, doesn't mean they understand it enough to explain it in an orthodox manner (even if they think their understanding is orthodox).
.
EENS is more complex than those spiritual mysteries above, because it necessarily includes human emotion, because it deals with the salvation of loved ones, friends, and billions of people.  Not only that, EENS has been more attacked (directly and subtlely) than any other doctrine in history.  So there's LOTS of false notions, slighly-unorthodox points and outright lies about this doctrine that have seeped into modern times (especially since the Protestant revolt 500 yrs ago).
.

Quote
I don't know if you are a convert from Protestantism

I grew up Trad, by the grace of God.  Good for you for converting.
.

Quote
My point is, this doesn't disprove the extremely stringent position taken by Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen per se,
Fr Feeney and Fr Wathen (especially) aren't alone in their "stringent" position.  In every one of Fr Wathen's books where he speaks on the subject, 90% of the time he is quoting various other theologians/moralists from times past who are just as stringent on the subject. 
.
My experience is that Fr Feeney was not as research-oriented, nor voluminous in his writings, so his arguments were not as detailed.  But still, Fr Feeney's view on EENS is not new.  Go back and read the Church Fathers...
.

Quote
but this *isn't necessary* in order to be a stumbling block to Protestants and to Catholics who want to get along well with Protestants.  That one technically allows God to work extraordinarily in the life of someone who is invincibly ignorant doesn't really do away with the "scandal" in their minds.

I'm sorry, I don't follow the point you're trying to make.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 08:04:45 AM
But as St Thomas and St Alphonsus (and Trent, and the Church Fathers, and many others) have said, BOD would only apply to a person who has taken actions.  1.  This would be studying the Faith by reading/talking/listening.  2.  Taking steps to come into the Church (i.e. taking classes).  3.  Most importantly, they must internally accept the Incarnation/Trinity and any other doctrines they have been taught.
.
Those that have done the ACTIONS above, could be qualified for BOD.  All others would not, because as Stubborn rightly points out, then that reduces BOD to a mere "wish" or "spiritual daydream" which is akin to the protestant's faith-alone heresy.

And it's even more than that.  VOTUM, badly translated as "desire" (and this translation is rejected even by The Catholic Encyclopedia), derives from the Latin word for "will" and is even stronger than an act of will, being related to the word "vow".

If some man is courting a woman and desires to marry her, he could propose marriage, buy her a ring, intend to marry her, make all the arrangements, pay for all the expenses of the reception, but if at the moment that he's asked to pronounce the VOWS, he does not do so, there was never any marriage, despite all the desires and intentions that preceded it.  VOTUM has a kind of solemnity about it, and it has a public aspect to it.  It's much stronger than just a "desire" and much stronger than even actions.

In fact, as Catholic Encylopedia admits, the term entails every one of the dispositions that Trent teaches are necessary for justification, the faith, hope, and charity (in their "initial" or incipient state), true contrition, and the intention to be baptized.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 08:09:27 AM
Council of Trent Session 6 Chapter 4:

.....And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.
As I said, "What Trent actually says, and this is infallible, is that justification cannot take place without it".
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 16, 2020, 08:15:36 AM
Quote
So then, aren't all the priests at the SSPX and Resistance masses we go to obstinate heretics?

No, they are definitely not obstinate, as this topic is full of confusion, mis-used terms, and modernist infiltration going back to the 1600s (yes, there were masonic infiltrators in the vatican back then).
.
Even on this thread alone, i've seen the terms 'implicit desire', 'implicit faith', 'explicit desire', and 'explicit faith' used incorrectly and interchangeably.  This mis-use of terms (and accidental misquoting of Saints) leads to much of the confusion on this topic.
.
.
a. Explicit Faith in the Incarnation/Trinity + Explicit desire to enter Church/for Baptism = BOD is possible.
b. Implicit Faith in the Incarnation/Trinity + Implicit desire to enter Church/for Baptism = BOD is remote but possible...maybe.
.
c. Explicit Faith in Incarnation/Trinity + no desire for the Church/Baptism = BOD not possible, because it's not desired at all.
d. Implicit Faith in Incarnation/Trinity + no desire for the Church/Baptism = BOD not possible, because it's not desired at all.
.
e. No Faith in Incarnation/Trinity + a desire to enter Church/for Baptism = BOD isn't possible because they don't have a grasp on what the Faith/Church really is.  They don't know what they are desiring.
.
...And a whole host of other possible scenarios...
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 08:17:42 AM
Many Modernists and those who have been liberalized/modernized in their catholic faith would believe that BOD applies to anyone who is "sincere" in their desire only (i.e. "Oh, wouldn't it be nice to go to heaven."  or  "I'm a good person, I love God, and I want to be saved....but I would never be a catholic.").
.
But as St Thomas and St Alphonsus (and Trent, and the Church Fathers, and many others) have said, BOD would only apply to a person who has taken actions.  1.  This would be studying the Faith by reading/talking/listening.  2.  Taking steps to come into the Church (i.e. taking classes).  3.  Most importantly, they must internally accept the Incarnation/Trinity and any other doctrines they have been taught.
.
Those that have done the ACTIONS above, could be qualified for BOD.  All others would not, because as Stubborn rightly points out, then that reduces BOD to a mere "wish" or "spiritual daydream" which is akin to the protestant's faith-alone heresy.
Not so Pax, Trent does not say a BOD applies to anyone, Trent says that justification cannot take place without a desire for the sacrament.

Yes, St. Thomas and Alphonsus and etc. speculate a possible conclusion in that your above actions are required for justification to take place, but Trent does no such thing.

All Trent says is that justification cannot take place without it, which contrary to popular opinion, is not saying that justification will take place with it.  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 16, 2020, 08:21:10 AM
I agree.  Bishop Williamson rightly traces the roots of subjectivism to the Renaissance, and the overemphasis on free will.  You also had the phenomenon of Molinism flaring up at about this time.  Also feeding into this trend was the discovery of the "New World."  I believe that the sentiments that Father Cekada once expressed, that it's inconceivable that all those people who had lived in the New World before its discovery, would be lost, likely contributed to the speculation.  But God put those souls there for a reason that's known only to Him.  We can't draw THEOLOGICAL conclusions based upon our own sense of what would and would not be right or just or fair or merciful of God to do.  How many people have lost or rejected the faith based upon the rhetorical question:  "How could a good God do such a thing?" when faced with some tragedy?

Yes, Father Cekada's sentiments encapsulate the spirit well. The irony is that this man-centered spirit of humanism has even invaded faithful Catholics like Father Cekada. The eyes of man cannot see certain things and the ways of God seem impossible to him.

This pattern is set forth repeatedly by John in his Gospel. Christ expresses a divine truth and the response of man is "how can this be?" because it is "inconceivable" to his reason. So the woman at the well to Christ's offer of the water of life (John 4:11), Nicodemus regarding baptism/being born again and the mysterious working of the Holy Ghost (John 3:4,9), the Jєωs regarding the Incarnation and the Eucharist (John 6:42,52).

So Father Cekada in the instance you cited.

And very relevant to the topic, so the objector to St. Paul regarding the doctrine of Predestination and election in Romans 9:19.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 16, 2020, 08:22:02 AM
Quote
In fact, as Catholic Encylopedia admits, the term entails every one of the dispositions that Trent teaches are necessary for justification, the faith, hope, and charity (in their "initial" or incipient state), true contrition, and the intention to be baptized.

Correct, thanks for pointing out this necessary condition.  It's akin to a person making a 'perfect act of contrition' when in the state of sin.  The person can tell God they're sorry, but UNLESS they plan/take action/intend to go to confession AT THE NEXT AVAILABLE TIME, then they cannot receive forgiveness from God.  The promise/plan/vow to confess is necessary for forgiveness.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 16, 2020, 08:25:49 AM

Quote
Not so Pax, Trent does not say a BOD applies to anyone, Trent says that justification cannot take place without a desire for the sacrament.

Yes, St. Thomas and Alphonsus and etc. speculate a possible conclusion in that your above actions are required for justification to take place, but Trent does no such thing.

All Trent says is that justification cannot take place without it, which contrary to popular opinion, is not saying that justification will take place with it.
I agree with you on the more-strict Trent interpretation (which would rule out 99% of BOD cases) but I'm arguing under the assumption that St Thomas and St Alphonsus were correct, ie the middle ground.  I'm trying to meet the BOD'ers in the middle, most of whom make St Thomas/Alphonsus look super-orthodox.
.
If we can get BOD'ers to accept the more-strict St Thomas/Alphonsus view, then the whole controversy would go away.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 09:43:53 AM
As I said, "What Trent actually says, and this is infallible, is that justification cannot take place without it".
The Catechism of Trent makes it clear what was meant by the canon.

Quote
Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century): The Sacraments, Baptism: "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."
Catechisms are by no means infallible, but when it's a question of how to interpret a Tridentine canon, the Tridentine catechism is absolutely the best place to look. St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus also read that same canon in this same way, and neither were ever corrected for it. Nor were a multitude of catechisms that taught the same as the Tridentine one ever corrected or revised regarding this.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 09:50:43 AM
No, they are definitely not obstinate, as this topic is full of confusion, mis-used terms, and modernist infiltration going back to the 1600s (yes, there were masonic infiltrators in the vatican back then).

Right, and this is where I get off the boat from the Dimonds.  They hold that anyone who believes even in a limited Thomistic BoD for catechumens is a heretic and outside the Church.  But the Church has never condemned this opinion and has even declared Doctors of the Church several men who believed in it.  Consequently, this position is objectively schismatic.

I wish people would stop talking so much about BoD.  Yes, it's THE weapon used by the EENS-deniers to gut EENS dogma, by extending it to anyone of "sincerity".  But it's a mistake to go back in the other direction and conflate Thomistic BOD with the heretical propositions promoted by the people who ABUSE BoD.  This creates an incredible amount of misdirection and a huge distraction from the central issue.  It's a mistake to feel that you have to reject St. Thomas in order to uphold EENS.  Not to mention that it's, tactically, very stupid.  If you're trying to convince someone of your position, you're not going to get very far when you have to attack the Church Doctors.  "I'm going to take the word of this fool over that of St. Thomas?"  No, in fact, we have to BACK the teaching of St. Thomas regarding the need for explicit faith in order to be saved.  Once that argument is made, THEN later one might revisit BoD.  But they use the boogey-man of "Feeneyism" to simply shut down the entire discussion.

Similarly, the pro-BoDers do this.  They keep citing St. Thomas et al. regarding BoD as if it proved that infidels can be saved, which it does no such thing.

So the important thing is to strip these types of that weapon, and reappropriate St. Thomas for the DEFENSE of EENS rather than allowing the anti-EENSers to co-opt him as a defender of their errors.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 09:56:04 AM
If we can get BOD'ers to accept the more-strict St Thomas/Alphonsus view, then the whole controversy would go away.

Absolutely.  BoD becomes a mere friendly academic and speculative disagreement among Catholics when Tridentine Catholic ecclesiology and EENS dogma are preserved intact.  BoD arguments do nothing but muddy the waters.  I personally don't believe in BoD, and I don't believe the Church teaches it, but I have no issue with someone who believes in it, since the Church has never condemned the opinion. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 10:25:58 AM
The Catechism of Trent makes it clear what was meant by the canon.

Quote
Catechism of the Council of Trent (16th century): The Sacraments, Baptism: "...should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness."

Catechisms are by no means infallible, but when it's a question of how to interpret a Tridentine canon, the Tridentine catechism is absolutely the best place to look. St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus also read that same canon in this same way, and neither were ever corrected for it. Nor were a multitude of catechisms that taught the same as the Tridentine one ever corrected or revised regarding this.
I agree re: using Trent's Catechism.

We have Trent saying no justification without the desire for the sacrament.

And we have the catechism saying their desire for the sacrament and repentance for past sins will avail them to justification, that is, will be advantageous or useful, or will be beneficial for them to obtain justification.

Neither say a desire for the sacrament is salvific, will certainly save them, or will certainly justify them. The catechism can't say that because Trent does not say that. Trent's catechism and the Council of Trent are both *not* saying that a desire for the sacrament certainly justifies, and they are both certainly *not* saying a desire saves - only that without the desire (and repentance) there is no justification.



   
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 11:56:15 AM
Catechisms are by no means infallible, but when it's a question of how to interpret a Tridentine canon, the Tridentine catechism is absolutely the best place to look. St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus also read that same canon in this same way, and neither were ever corrected for it. Nor were a multitude of catechisms that taught the same as the Tridentine one ever corrected or revised regarding this.
I agree re: using Trent's Catechism.

We have Trent saying no justification without the desire for the sacrament.

And we have the catechism saying their desire for the sacrament and repentance for past sins will avail them to justification, that is, will be advantageous or useful, or will be beneficial for them to obtain justification.

Neither say a desire for the sacrament is salvific, will certainly save them, or will certainly justify them. The catechism can't say that because Trent does not say that. Trent's catechism and the Council of Trent are both *not* saying that a desire for the sacrament certainly justifies, and they are both certainly *not* saying a desire saves - only that without the desire (and repentance) there is no justification.
The line in the catechism is in the context that it becomes impossible for the person to be baptised, i.e they die before they're baptised. Since they can never be baptised, if they were not brought to grace and righteous by their intention to be baptised, then they were and will never be availed or helped to grace and righteousness at all. Without BOD, all an intention to get baptised helps you with is getting you baptised, but if you are never baptised then that intention would ultimately amount to nothing. The only way an intention to be baptised could avail you grace and righteousness without you ever being baptised, is if that intention itself could justify you. 

This is what St. Ambrose proposed in the 300s AD, and it's the same way that St. Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus interpreted the aforementioned canon of Trent.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 12:01:01 PM
The line in the catechism is in the context that it becomes impossible for the person to be baptised, i.e they die before they're baptised.

I disagree.  I've read the original Latin (don't have it anymore) and it's not clear.  There's a tendency in Latin subjunctive clauses to have the sense of a hypothetical, so instead of "if some mishap prevents them", more along the lines of "lest some mishap prevent them".  I read this passage as teaching that God will not allow some mishap to prevent the justification of His elect, while leaving any inferences about BoD unspoken and unresolved.  This was no attempt to teach BoD, just explaining why it's OK to delay the Baptism of adults but not that of infants.  You read too much into it to take this as a teaching of BoD.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 12:14:19 PM
I disagree.  I've read the original Latin (don't have it anymore) and it's not clear.  There's a tendency in Latin subjunctive clauses to have the sense of a hypothetical, so instead of "if some mishap prevents them", more along the lines of "lest some mishap prevent them".  I read this passage as teaching that God will not allow some mishap to prevent the justification of His elect, while leaving any inferences about BoD unspoken and unresolved.  This was no attempt to teach BoD, just explaining why it's OK to delay the Baptism of adults but not that of infants.  You read too much into it to take this as a teaching of BoD.
Not sure I understand. So you're saying the passage actually means something more along the lines of "lest any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be [baptised], their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to [Baptism]"? As in, God will never let anyone who truly intends to be baptised die before receiving it, and the catechumens who did lacked proper intention(or were unrepentant)?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 12:21:59 PM
The line in the catechism is in the context that it becomes impossible for the person to be baptised, i.e they die before they're baptised. Since they can never be baptised, if they were not brought to grace and righteous by their intention to be baptised, then they were and will never be availed or helped to grace and righteousness at all. Without BOD, all an intention to get baptised helps you with is getting you baptised, but if you are never baptised then that intention would ultimately amount to nothing. The only way an intention to be baptised could avail you grace and righteousness without you ever being baptised, is if that intention itself could justify you.

This is what St. Ambrose proposed in the 300s AD, and it's the same way that St. Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus interpreted the aforementioned canon of Trent.
No forlorn, it says simply an unforeseen accident, not an accidental death. Grace and righteousness are for the living, not the dead.

If you read further in the catechism, you will find they teach when there is a danger of death that the person is to be baptized immediately.


In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be Baptised At Once

Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith. This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the faith.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 12:31:35 PM
Not sure I understand. So you're saying the passage actually means something more along the lines of "lest any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be [baptised], their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to [Baptism]"? As in, God will never let anyone who truly intends to be baptised die before receiving it, and the catechumens who did lacked proper intention(or were unrepentant)?

Yes, I believe that it's saying exactly that, leaving it open as to HOW God will accomplish this.  Now it's open to a BoD interpretation but it doesn't necessarily mean BoD.  This language seems to be paraphrasing an expression of St. Fulgentius.  I'll try to dig up the quotes (which I have cited here before).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 16, 2020, 12:37:07 PM
OK, here it is.

St. Fulgentius:
Quote
And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith, ... God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation ...

St. Fulgentius was one of the Fathers who explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire, so how would his faith and confession (i.e. public profession of faith) "avail for his salvation"?

Well, let's finish the sentence:

St. Fulgentius:

Quote
God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation, since he preserved him in this life until the time of his holy regeneration.

St. Fulgentius:
Quote
If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no availBaptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.



Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 16, 2020, 01:18:16 PM
^^This is Trent's teaching beautifully explained. Thanks Lad.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 16, 2020, 06:15:09 PM
Alright, thanks for the clarification, Ladislaus.

^^This is Trent's teaching beautifully explained. Thanks Lad.

And I owe you an apology because you pointed this out to me originally, but in a classic case of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, my own lack of understanding of your counter-arguments made me wrongly dismiss them. I acted rather arrogantly in the way I spoke with such certainty when really I had a minimal understand of Trent and missed your point entirely.

I often have to learn lessons of humility when arguing on here, and they never seem to stick for long, but one day I'll remember to be more careful!  :laugh1:
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: LeDeg on September 16, 2020, 07:00:08 PM
Lad, Stubborn and Pax, I would like to thank all 3 of you for your explanations of all this. You all have put my mind at ease in regards to this teaching. It has helped me avoid being a Donatist in dealing with most of the trad clergy.



It seems to me that if a R&R defender were to point to their "loose" BOD teaching because of a perceived interpretation of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus, would it stand to reason that that same line of thinking of authoritative doctors and theologians defending their perception of what Trent teaches would also apply to doctors and theologians in regards to heretical popes, especially post Vatican I and pre Vatican II? In other words, what's the real difference if you end up pitting doctors versus doctors for the respective issues? No trying to derail.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2020, 04:52:16 AM
And I owe you an apology because you pointed this out to me originally, but in a classic case of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, my own lack of understanding of your counter-arguments made me wrongly dismiss them. I acted rather arrogantly in the way I spoke with such certainty when really I had a minimal understand of Trent and missed your point entirely.

I often have to learn lessons of humility when arguing on here, and they never seem to stick for long, but one day I'll remember to be more careful!  :laugh1:
No apology needed and kudos to you for seeing what the vast majority, including all but a very few of the Church's scholars and very learned, are altogether blind to. I think in some ways that's pretty fantastic when you stop to think about it.   

          
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2020, 05:14:09 AM
Lad, Stubborn and Pax, I would like to thank all 3 of you for your explanations of all this. You all have put my mind at ease in regards to this teaching. It has helped me avoid being a Donatist in dealing with most of the trad clergy.



It seems to me that if a R&R defender were to point to their "loose" BOD teaching because of a perceived interpretation of St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Alphonsus, would it stand to reason that that same line of thinking of authoritative doctors and theologians defending their perception of what Trent teaches would also apply to doctors and theologians in regards to heretical popes, especially post Vatican I and pre Vatican II? In other words, what's the real difference if you end up pitting doctors versus doctors for the respective issues? No trying to derail.
You are absolutely correct. The teachings of the Fathers on a BOD/BOB were pure speculations and as such could be right or could be wrong - - that's the price of speculating. There is no doctrine of the Church that might be wrong hence, BOD is not a doctrine.  The same goes for St. Robert et al and their ideas regarding sedeism. Pure speculation is all it is and all it can ever be - until the Church makes the decision definitively. Until that happens, the default position remains the man elected is the pope.

In the case of a BOD as regards Justification, while the Church at Trent did not explicitly condemn the idea, neither did she teach the idea. As for salvation, She infallibly taught at Trent that the sacrament is necessary.

Which is to say that even if it is possible for one not baptized to die in the state of justification, because they did not receive the sacrament of baptism they cannot enter heaven. Lad has been saying this forever, that lacking the character of Baptism prevents entrance into heaven.  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 17, 2020, 07:11:53 AM

Here's where I hit a roadblock though.  Its really hard for me to believe that everyone but Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen is just ignorant of something that's easily demonstrable theologically by the OUM.  Almost all of the clergy, whether they take a more HOC position like the FSSP, the Traditionalist R and R priests in the SSPX or SSPX Resistance, *and* the Sedevacantists *all* seem to take the position here.  I could see possible explanations of the discrepancy if some group were to agree with Fr. Feeney (at least on EENS, if not straight up BOD.)  If the Sedevacantists held to the stricter view, perhaps we could say this is the poisoned fruit of V2.  If the R and R were stricter, perhaps we could hold that the issue is giving too much weight to the non infallible teachings of a narrow period of history, say, 1870 to 1960 or so.  But the thing is, *both* groups generally hold to Archbishop Lefebvre's comparatively "loose" EENS that says all sorts of religious people *can* be saved in spite of their errors, not just erring materially Catholics, but also Protestants, Jєωs, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, etc.  Almost all of the Sedevacantist and R and R clergy believe salvation is *theoretically open* to such people, just despite their religion and not because of it.  Now I think there's room to make a mistake here.  Just because something *can* happen doesn't mean that its going to, or that we can count on it.  But the issue is, has God dogmatically ruled out the possibility, or not?  Ladislaus (and a few other posters here, and Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen in the historical realm) would say that he has, but the *vast* majority of Trad clergy, both sedevacantist and non sedevacantist, would say he hasnt.

And I don't see nearly enough clear evidence to say that almost all of the Trad clergy are just brazenly wrong here.  Now if someone could truly prove to me that I was obliged to believe that anyone who isn't a formal and visible member of the Church is damned, I would certainly accept it.  But the problem is the "proof" is usually just  verbatim quoting the "plain meaning" of Florence or Unam Sanctum, which the Trad clergy are certainly aware of.  ie. if just quote bombing florence isn't convincing to such intelligent people as Archbishop Lefebvre, Fr. Cekada, Bishop Williamson, Bishop Sanborn, or really pretty much any of the priests and bishops even on the far end of the Trad spectrum, I don't really see why it should be convincing to me.  "Lol I've read Florence I know more than basically all the clergy in the world about EENS."  To be fair to Ladislaus, I know he went to seminary and has been a Catholic for a long time.  He certainly knows more than *me*.

Still finding this one hard to believe TBH.

How could so many Trad priests and bishops be "wrong"? That is almost child's play compared to the larger issue: how could the pope and bishops of the Catholic Church speaking collectively and with "the voice of Christ," the Magisterium, get things wrong?

I understand your point and it is certainly valid. Here's the thing, however. What have we, or those who fit the label of "Trad," learned from Vatican II and the "Conciliar Revolution"?

At the heart of it all is the issue of Magisterial authority - indefectability and freedom from error - when, and under what conditions? This issue has to be grappled with because what the Conciliar revolution (related - how much of a revolution is it?) shows is a pope and the moral majority of bishops united him promulgating either doctrinal or disciplinary errors (if not heresies), and if the errors are only "disciplinary" they go so far as imposing an "evil" or "harmful to souls" rite of the Mass on the Latin rite of the Church (according to most Trads).

The traditional, pre-Vatican II understanding of the OUM would maintain that when the pope and the bishops in union with him teach something to the Church it is free from error. That is, the "universality" of the teaching of the OUM, to be infallible or free from error, has to be only synchronic (the current pope and the bishops at the time, the current Magisterium, united at one in a teaching) and not diachronic (always taught throughout the Church, through all time). This is in the pre-Vatican II manuals, and I think of Cardinal Franzelin primarily, who I believe Mithrandylan has quoted here.

As I see it, there are only two options in light of the Magisterium and its teachings in this post-V2 reality. Either this teaching of the manuals regarding the infalliblity or indefectibility of the OUM is wrong, or the post-V2 magisterium is an aberration that departs from a true teaching. A departure from truth in an organism established for purposes of preaching and carrying forth the truth of salvation is so radical that it requires the Sedevacantist solution - if the pre-Vatican II teachings regarding the Magisterium are true, this can't be the Magisterium.

If you're not a Sede, I don't see how you can make arguments against Feeneyites or Feeneyism on the basis of the OUM or Magisterial authority. You recognize a Magisterium that is in error. If this "Magisterium" can be in error, even in the teachings of ecuмenical councils, why could not prior popes, ecuмenical councils, etc. be in error? If the true Magisterium is capable of a imposing a noxious and harmful Mass that leads souls to hell, and teaches the possibility of salvation in other religions, etc., why couldn't the true Magisterium pre-VII be wrong on BOD?

I don't see the logical consistency of those who are not Sede in opposing Feeneyism. They recognize a Magisterium in error, and yet get apoplectic when Feeneyites take a position whose upshot is - according to most non-Feeneyite Trads - that the same Magisterium (albeit before V2) taught error. Your own position recognizes a Magisterium capable of error on a massive and dangerous scale.

I say, physicians, heal yourselves.

Of course the truth could be that the Magisterium, even if the pope and all the current bishops agree, can be in error when teaching below the level of the invocation of its extraordinary or solemn authority, or when not declaring something to be of the deposit of the faith, a part of the Revelation of God. That would be consistent, after all, with the actual language of Vatican I. But it seems to me that to come clean we need a open, honest discussion about that, and about the teachings of the pre-Vatican II manuals which taught this synchronic infallibility - rather than requiring a diachronic (always believed throughout the time of the Church) universality - of the current pope and the living bishops in union with him.

So Byz - not sure if this applies to you but I assume you are a Trad Catholic, being here - why dost thou marvel over so many priests and Trad bishops being "wrong" about BOD? Seems to me you have to deal with a Magisterium, a much higher authority, being "wrong" on either doctrine or discipline in a manner that is perhaps damning souls to hell, or at least endangering souls to that place -  contrary to the very purposes for which God established it.  

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2020, 07:50:53 AM
The traditional, pre-Vatican II understanding of the OUM would maintain that when the pope and the bishops in union with him teach something to the Church it is free from error. That is, the "universality" of the teaching of the OUM, to be infallible or free from error, has to be only synchronic (the current pope and the bishops at the time, the current Magisterium, united at one in a teaching) and not diachronic (always taught throughout the Church, through all time). This is in the pre-Vatican II manuals, and I think of Cardinal Franzelin primarily, who I believe Mithrandylan has quoted here.
For the record, the idea that whatever all the bishops in unison with the pope teach is free from error is of course wrong, the Church never taught such a thing. Some theologians of the last few centuries likely did teach it, and their ideas were wrongfully accepted as a teaching of the Church, but the Church never has taught any such a thing.

The only "official" teaching of that idea, is the lie found in Lumen Gentium 25.2 where it sates: "The infallibility promised to the Church resides also in the body of Bishops, when that body exercises the supreme magisterium with the successor of Peter. To these definitions the assent of the Church can never be wanting, on account of the activity of that same Holy Spirit, by which the whole flock of Christ is preserved and progresses in unity of faith".

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 17, 2020, 11:11:21 AM
How could so many Trad priests and bishops be "wrong"? That is almost child's play compared to the larger issue: how could the pope and bishops of the Catholic Church speaking collectively and with "the voice of Christ," the Magisterium, get things wrong?

I understand your point and it is certainly valid. Here's the thing, however. What have we, or those who fit the label of "Trad," learned from Vatican II and the "Conciliar Revolution"?

At the heart of it all is the issue of Magisterial authority - indefectability and freedom from error - when, and under what conditions? This issue has to be grappled with because what the Conciliar revolution (related - how much of a revolution is it?) shows is a pope and the moral majority of bishops united him promulgating either doctrinal or disciplinary errors (if not heresies), and if the errors are only "disciplinary" they go so far as imposing an "evil" or "harmful to souls" rite of the Mass on the Latin rite of the Church (according to most Trads).

The traditional, pre-Vatican II understanding of the OUM would maintain that when the pope and the bishops in union with him teach something to the Church it is free from error. That is, the "universality" of the teaching of the OUM, to be infallible or free from error, has to be only synchronic (the current pope and the bishops at the time, the current Magisterium, united at one in a teaching) and not diachronic (always taught throughout the Church, through all time). This is in the pre-Vatican II manuals, and I think of Cardinal Franzelin primarily, who I believe Mithrandylan has quoted here.

As I see it, there are only two options in light of the Magisterium and its teachings in this post-V2 reality. Either this teaching of the manuals regarding the infalliblity or indefectibility of the OUM is wrong, or the post-V2 magisterium is an aberration that departs from a true teaching. A departure from truth in an organism established for purposes of preaching and carrying forth the truth of salvation is so radical that it requires the Sedevacantist solution - if the pre-Vatican II teachings regarding the Magisterium are true, this can't be the Magisterium.

If you're not a Sede, I don't see how you can make arguments against Feeneyites or Feeneyism on the basis of the OUM or Magisterial authority. You recognize a Magisterium that is in error. If this "Magisterium" can be in error, even in the teachings of ecuмenical councils, why could not prior popes, ecuмenical councils, etc. be in error? If the true Magisterium is capable of a imposing a noxious and harmful Mass that leads souls to hell, and teaches the possibility of salvation in other religions, etc., why couldn't the true Magisterium pre-VII be wrong on BOD?

I don't see the logical consistency of those who are not Sede in opposing Feeneyism. They recognize a Magisterium in error, and yet get apoplectic when Feeneyites take a position whose upshot is - according to most non-Feeneyite Trads - that the same Magisterium (albeit before V2) taught error. Your own position recognizes a Magisterium capable of error on a massive and dangerous scale.

I say, physicians, heal yourselves.

Of course the truth could be that the Magisterium, even if the pope and all the current bishops agree, can be in error when teaching below the level of the invocation of its extraordinary or solemn authority, or when not declaring something to be of the deposit of the faith, a part of the Revelation of God. That would be consistent, after all, with the actual language of Vatican I. But it seems to me that to come clean we need a open, honest discussion about that, and about the teachings of the pre-Vatican II manuals which taught this synchronic infallibility - rather than requiring a diachronic (always believed throughout the time of the Church) universality - of the current pope and the living bishops in union with him.

So Byz - not sure if this applies to you but I assume you are a Trad Catholic, being here - why dost thou marvel over so many priests and Trad bishops being "wrong" about BOD? Seems to me you have to deal with a Magisterium, a much higher authority, being "wrong" on either doctrine or discipline in a manner that is perhaps damning souls to hell, or at least endangering souls to that place -  contrary to the very purposes for which God established it.  
I'm at least a broadly/learning Trad, but if some people didn't consider me trad for this or that reason I wouldn't bother fighting with them about it.

My argument about Implicit BOD *isn't magisterial*.  Its not that the Holy Ghost would per se protect the trad priests from error.  It just seems *highly* improbable that several posters here know better than every trad priest on earth.  Its the equivalent of if I were to argue something like, someone here was to make some argument about history, and I was to say "but every historian disagrees with that point of view, even the revisionist historians."  If Vatican II was wrong for NOT taking the Feeneyite position on EENS, it seems strange that all the SSPX and Sede bishops and priests didn't notice, when their whole reason for their ministries is opposing V2.

I agree we need a more open discussion on what magisterial infallibility looks like it, and not just assume "all the 20th century canonists say X" actually proves X
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 17, 2020, 02:45:58 PM
My argument about Implicit BOD *isn't magisterial*.  Its not that the Holy Ghost would per se protect the trad priests from error.  It just seems *highly* improbable that several posters here know better than every trad priest on earth.  Its the equivalent of if I were to argue something like, someone here was to make some argument about history, and I was to say "but every historian disagrees with that point of view, even the revisionist historians."  If Vatican II was wrong for NOT taking the Feeneyite position on EENS, it seems strange that all the SSPX and Sede bishops and priests didn't notice, when their whole reason for their ministries is opposing V2.

I agree we need a more open discussion on what magisterial infallibility looks like it, and not just assume "all the 20th century canonists say X" actually proves X
Byz,

Yes, I understand you are not making a "magisterial" argument. But the fundamental point remains: if the Magsiterium - which doesn't have its authority and gravitas merely by virtue of a human consensus, but by a divine charisma and protection from error, something which of course no group of mere men has, even if they were to number in millions - could be so wrong, the fact that a group of Trad priests and bishops could err without that divine protection is of little moment.

Quote
Quote from: ByzCat3000 (https://www.cathinfo.com/index.php?topic=57773.msg714726#msg714726) on Thu Sep 17 2020 12:11:21 GMT-0400 (Eastern Daylight Time)


If Vatican II was wrong for NOT taking the Feeneyite position on EENS, it seems strange that all the SSPX and Sede bishops and priests didn't notice, when their whole reason for their ministries is opposing V2.

Not so strange. They got jazzed mainly over the taking away of the old Mass. Put it in perspective: there were "crickets" in the hierarchy when Father Feeney waged his battle before V2. Who supported Father Feeney and cried out against Cushing et al? The errors (if they are errors) regarding BOD and EENS pre-existed V2, and all those pre-V2 priests and bishops didn't notice. They "noticed" when the Mass was ripped away from them; the other thing (BOD) was there before V2 without objection.

And, again, I point out that my argument here is against the non-Sedes, as I stated. The non-Sedes oppose Feeneyism because of the OUM before V2, and yet they recognize an "OUM" after V2 that effectively impugns the OUM as a cogent (or even any) authority in any argument.

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 17, 2020, 03:31:10 PM
3500 Bishops are wrong, I'm right. - Fr. Hesse

https://youtu.be/Zx-MTUdbsvQ?t=6
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2020, 05:11:08 PM
If Vatican II was wrong for NOT taking the Feeneyite position on EENS, ...

Hey, ByzCat, I've pointed this out several times now, and yet you persist.  We are not talking about the "Feeneyite" position on EENS and ecclesiology, but rather Tridentine ecclesiology (defining the Church as a visible society) and Thomistic ecclesiology and soteriology.

Vatican II presents a brand new ecclesiology, and the dispute over BoD is of little moment in that regard.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 17, 2020, 05:12:30 PM
The non-Sedes oppose Feeneyism because of the OUM before V2, and yet they recognize an "OUM" after V2 that effectively impugns the OUM as a cogent (or even any) authority in any argument.

Well stated.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: SeanJohnson on September 17, 2020, 05:15:02 PM
Well stated.

Poorly stated.

R&R does not recognize in the post-V2 teachings the OUM.

These novel errors are what is known as the "authentic magisterium" (which is actually not magisterial at all).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 17, 2020, 05:36:56 PM
Hey, ByzCat, I've pointed this out several times now, and yet you persist.  We are not talking about the "Feeneyite" position on EENS and ecclesiology, but rather Tridentine ecclesiology (defining the Church as a visible society) and Thomistic ecclesiology and soteriology.

Vatican II presents a brand new ecclesiology, and the dispute over BoD is of little moment in that regard.
You yourself said that to be consistent with his implicit faith form of BOD, +ABL should've accepted Vatican 2 since he was already adopting EENS-denying ecclesiology. And he's far from alone, pretty much all the Trad clergy agree with him. So by your own words, they should all accept Vatican 2 to be logically consistent with their beliefs. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: trad123 on September 17, 2020, 09:10:03 PM
So by your own words, they should all accept Vatican 2 to be logically consistent with their beliefs.

Bishop Sanborn

Ecclesiology Debate: Bp. Donald Sanborn vs. Dr. Robert Fastiggi (2004)


https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/one-universal-church-of-the-faithful/msg687101/#msg687101


Absolutely
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: trad123 on September 17, 2020, 09:42:29 PM
If we can get BOD'ers to accept the more-strict St Thomas/Alphonsus view, then the whole controversy would go away.

/thread

All this back and forth is not about catechumens, it's about non-Catholics who practice and publicly espouse another religion
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: trad123 on September 17, 2020, 09:56:25 PM
Arguing over catechumens is a distraction.



https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-10.htm

An Open Letter to Confused Catholics


Quote
10. Ecuмenism

(. . .)

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: trad123 on September 17, 2020, 10:16:49 PM
There is an interesting preface to an article located here:

SSPX Asia

http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_II/1988-05-13.htm

Archbishop LEFEBVRE and the VATICAN


Quote
That Archbishop May considers that these Hindus with their vague search for God will avoid hell, while they are still ignorant of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Savior, is tantamount to a practical denial of the Catholic Faith. “But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a reminder to them that seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). St. Augustine explains very well that, though ignorance excuses from an additional sin against Faith, it is incapable of cleansing the original sin and other sins with which one’s soul is burdened. Baptism of desire only applies to those who, by a special grace of the Holy Ghost, have received the virtues of the Catholic Faith, Hope and Charity. (See St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, IIIa, Q.66, A.11.) How Archbishop May can apply this doctrine to Hindus “in search of God” is a mystery of iniquity (II Thess. 2:7).



A TALK HEARD ROUND THE WORLD
Angelus, April 2006


http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2497 (http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2497)


Bishop Bernard Fellay

Quote
Quote
Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.


But these things are so invisible, so subjective, that the Church has hardly spoken about it. We know the principle, but the Church has never made a practical application of it because it is too sensitive and delicate. Who can know who is in the state of grace or not? The Council of Trent teaches that no one can know it except through a special revelation or illumination from God.


Deuteronomy 5:8-9

Quote
[8] Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. [9] Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them.



Should I be as sharp to Bishop Fellay as the article preface was to Archbishop May?


How Bishop Fellay can conceive of the possibility of a idol worshiping Hindu living according to "the laws which God has put into his heart"  is a mystery of iniquity (II Thess. 2:7).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 18, 2020, 01:54:13 AM

Quote
All this back and forth is not about catechumens, it's about non-Catholics who practice and publicly espouse another religion
And that’s the heresy that Fr Feeney was preaching against.  The Modernists pulled a “bait and switch”...and it started back in the 1600s.  The St Augustine, St Thomas, St Alphonsus (even Trent) were ONLY speaking of BOD for catechumens.  Then the Modernists come along and liberalize BOD’s requirement of “faith in Trinity/Incarnation” to simply “faith in God”.  BOD requires a “sincere desire for baptism”; the Modernists switches that to a “sincere desire to do God's will”.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 18, 2020, 01:59:23 AM

Quote
You yourself said that to be consistent with his implicit faith form of BOD, +ABL should've accepted Vatican 2 since he was already adopting EENS-denying ecclesiology. And he's far from alone, pretty much all the Trad clergy agree with him. So by your own words, they should all accept Vatican 2 to be logically consistent with their beliefs. 
As I understand him, Lad is only talking about accepting V2 for this one particular point.  Obviously, the other 2 major heresies of V2 (there are a multitude of minor ones) - religious freedom and new-world ecuмenism - are separate issues and most Trads don’t accept these.  
.
One could argue that these 2 errors flow from the liberal-BOD view, but most Trads don’t go all the way over the heretical waterfall, even though their liberal-BOD canoe brings them close.  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 18, 2020, 05:22:21 AM
Hey, ByzCat, I've pointed this out several times now, and yet you persist.  We are not talking about the "Feeneyite" position on EENS and ecclesiology, but rather Tridentine ecclesiology (defining the Church as a visible society) and Thomistic ecclesiology and soteriology.

Vatican II presents a brand new ecclesiology, and the dispute over BoD is of little moment in that regard.
Honestly, I was just using shorthands... if you can give me better shorthands to use that don't involve conceeding the argument, I'd be OK with that.  Obviously at the moment I'm not convinced that you're right about what Trent taught, else I wouldn't be advancing the argument.  I'm trying to figure out *why* all the Trad clergy seem to disagree with you about *what* Trent taught.

I get why "feeneyite" is problematic, because technically that would also mean rejection of BOD for Catechumens, and even if you believe that, you aren't seriously arguing for it.

I'd use "strict" EENS except there are circles that I'm in in which I'd be considered strict, just not so much on this forum.  But if it would really make the conversation go smoother I'd be willing to agree to use that term here.

But I and others who don't take your position on what you call Tridentine ecclesiology *aren't* against EENS.  We're disagreeing on *what* EENS entails, and what that practically means for those who are not *visible members* of the Church.

I guess another way to put it would be... we agree that the Church is a visible society, but is it *only* visible?  I mean I guess that would be your argument.  That there is *no* invisible component to the society at all.  Whereas I suspect the Trad clergy would argue that yes, the Church is a visible society, and yet it is *possible* to be an invisible member.

There's a Dimond video (to be clear I'm referencing this to make a specific point, *not* categorizing you with Dimond) which is called "Sedevacantist priests who deny the salvation dogma" and at the end they mockingly quote some elderly independent Sede priest who says "The Church has never taught, and never will teach" that "All who are not *formal and visible* members of the Church" are damned.  And Peter Dimond mocks him and suggests he's never heard of Florence.  But of course (mind, I suppose at least in English) Florence says those who are *outside* the church are damned, whereas this priest said not all who aren't *formal and visible* members are damned, and I was just like... thats' a different thing, at least on its face.  Can we prove that its the same thing?

I have to end this message here now, but can interact later.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 18, 2020, 05:34:16 AM
Honestly, I was just using shorthands... if you can give me better shorthands to use that don't involve conceeding the argument, I'd be OK with that.  

OK, I get that, but this particular shorthand has not been helpful to the debate.  I, and many straight (non-Dimondite) "Feeneyites" consider BoD to be something of a side issue.  What we're advocating here is Bellarminism and Trentism and Thomism ... NOT "Feeneyism".

What we're talking about is a different ECCLESIOLOGY.  Trent emphatically taught that the Church is a visible society whose members are easily identified.  Vatican II subsistence ecclesiogy holds that there's a visible core but then also individuals who are within the Church invisibly.

So it's not Feeney vs. Vatican II.  It's TRENT vs. Vatican II.

Those Doctors who taught Baptism of Desire still held that the catechumens belonged to the visible Church because they were identifiable as such by their profession of the faith.
This notion of an amorphous partly-visible-partly-invisible Church is more akin to the Protestant theology that Trent was condemning than to Trent's ecclesiology.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 18, 2020, 07:20:46 AM
Obviously at the moment I'm not convinced that you're right about what Trent taught, else I wouldn't be advancing the argument.  I'm trying to figure out *why* all the Trad clergy seem to disagree with you about *what* Trent taught.
The writer as with 99.99% of all BODers, will never be convinced of even the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri, for his belief is the same as Fr. Cekada, not really a belief, but an unbelief:

The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”


That quote by Fr. Cekada, may he rest in peace, needs to be updated to address a defined BOD, the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas. Below is what  99.99% of BODers really believe TODAY concerning the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas (and of course what the writer above believes):

“With the strict, literal interpretation of the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who do not have explicit desire to be baptized or explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation ( the Divinity of Jesus Christ) .  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-believers - Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, Jєωs.... who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 18, 2020, 10:41:09 AM
OK, I get that, but this particular shorthand has not been helpful to the debate.  I, and many straight (non-Dimondite) "Feeneyites" consider BoD to be something of a side issue.  What we're advocating here is Bellarminism and Trentism and Thomism ... NOT "Feeneyism".

What we're talking about is a different ECCLESIOLOGY.  Trent emphatically taught that the Church is a visible society whose members are easily identified.  Vatican II subsistence ecclesiogy holds that there's a visible core but then also individuals who are within the Church invisibly.

So it's not Feeney vs. Vatican II.  It's TRENT vs. Vatican II.

Those Doctors who taught Baptism of Desire still held that the catechumens belonged to the visible Church because they were identifiable as such by their profession of the faith.
This notion of an amorphous partly-visible-partly-invisible Church is more akin to the Protestant theology that Trent was condemning than to Trent's ecclesiology.
OK so I don't want to use "feeneyism" because it comes off as a bit of a slur (which is not intended) but you're proposed alternative term basically assumes the other side of the debate.  I believe, at least in good faith, that Pope Pius IX, Pope Pius XII, the Baltimore Catechism, and the Catechism of St Pius X take my side of the debate.  furthermore, we *both* know for certain that Archbishop Lefebvre simultaneously rejected Vatican II but still took my side of this debate.  Now I'm open to being convinced that our position leads to Vatican II, but I haven't seen this proven yet.  Is there any more "neutral" terminology you'd be willing to agree to?  Maybe something like "Feeeny's EENS" (which would leave out the BOD issue) vs "Lefebvre's EENS"?  Or maybe "strict" vs "looser" EENS?  I'd even do "strict" vs "Lefebvre's" if that helps move things forward, since we all know what Lefebvre taught on the issue, and its pretty quotable.

Keep in mind that you're basically putting every sedevacantist priest on the side of Vatican II rather than Trent.  I can understand saying they don't side with Trent (whether correct or not) but I don't see how you can accuse Sedevacantist priests (or SSPX priests for that matter) of getting their ecclesiology from a council they object.

All that said I will admit that Ive never understood how someone could object *specifically* to the "subsist in" line  and yet not take the strict EENS position (I'll use that one for now unless you tell me me you prefer something different.)  I generally have not objected to this part of Vatican II personally, but I have objected to *other* parts of Vatican II, including parts that seem to suggest ecuмenism between Catholics and Muslims or Protestants is justifiable, and also on religious liberty which I think is a pretty overt contradiction.

Honestly, as an ex protestant I can tell you that Protestant ecclesiology is a lot different than *any* stripe of Trad ecclesiology that I've ever seen.  But honestly, its also a lot different from Vatican II.  Protestantism doesn't have "a visible society that you can be invisibly part of."  This *may* have been the position of Martin Luther or John Calvin.  But at this point Protestantism is a bunch of disparate visible socieites, which may or may not be in communion with each other, which are varying degrees of optional, and which are all part of the "invisible church of all who believe (insert a minimum set of doctrines that can't be defended by a concrete principle).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 18, 2020, 10:57:49 AM
Honestly, as an ex protestant I can tell you that Protestant ecclesiology is a lot different than *any* stripe of Trad ecclesiology that I've ever seen.
There is no Protestant church, therefore it follows that there can be no Protestant ecclesiology. There are as many Protestant "churches" as there are Protestants, each Protestant is a "church" of one.
Protestantism is like BOD, there are many as BOD's as there are BODers, but in the end all the BODers  have one belief in common, their unbelief in EENS as it is written, moreover, their disbelief in even the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas. Just the same as the Protestants, the only thing Protestants  have in common with each other is their unbelief that the Catholic Church is One true Church, the tone true faith and road to salvation.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 18, 2020, 11:02:06 AM
There is no Protestant church, therefore it follows that there can be no Protestant ecclesiology. There are as many Protestant "churches" as there are Protestants, each Protestant is a "church" of one.
Protestantism is like BOD, there are many many BOD's as there are BODers, but in the end all the BODers  have one belief in common, their unbelief. Just the same as the Protestants, the only thing they have in common is there unbelief that the Catholic Church is One true Church, the tone true faith and road to salvation.
I know there isn't any real Protestant church of course. But there are Protestants, they go to things that they call churches, and they have beliefs about ecclesiology.  Stop being anal.

Also your constant harping on "We all disbelieve" is tiresome.  I've already articulated why I think your idea that dogmas can be taken at "face value" is insufficient and is no more sensible than Protestants saying the same about sacred scripture, so why do you think continuing to repeat yourself would be useful?

I could theoretically be convinced that all the modern trad clergy are wrong on this, but it would take a lot more than "lol can't they read?"
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 18, 2020, 11:11:10 AM
I could theoretically be convinced that all the modern trad clergy are wrong on this, but it would take a lot more than "lol can't they read?"
As I stated before, the writer could never be convinced of even the defined limited BOD of St. Thomas, apparently he has a lot of free time to complain about it, since he's been at it for months. I post here only to cut to the chase for others who think the writer above has not been told repeatedly, all of the points brought up on this thread by others.

Quote
The writer as with 99.99% of all BODers, will never be convinced of even the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas and St. Alphonsus Ligouri, for his belief is the same as Fr. Cekada, not really a belief, but an unbelief:

The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death.  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”


That quote by Fr. Cekada, may he rest in peace, needs to be updated to address a defined BOD, the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas. Below is what  99.99% of BODers really believe TODAY concerning the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas (and of course what the writer above believes):

“With the strict, literal interpretation of the limited BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who do not have explicit desire to be baptized or explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation ( the Divinity of Jesus Christ) .  It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-believers - Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, Jєωs.... who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 18, 2020, 12:00:23 PM
As I stated before, the writer could never be convinced of even the defined limited BOD of St. Thomas, apparently he has a lot of free time to complain about it, since he's been at it for months. I post here only to cut to the chase for others who think the writer above has not been told repeatedly, all of the points brought up on this thread by others.
I will say this much.  Given how you think, your username fits you.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 18, 2020, 08:00:22 PM
BzyCat,
Pray and study the doctrines/principles involved.  When you start viewing doctrine through the lens of "popularity" or "personality", you enter the realm of sentimentality.  Let's remember that Church history is full of examples where the "extreme" view was correct, while all others were wrong.  Truth matters, not "sensibility" or "reasonableness" or "earthly sense".
.
1.  St Athanasius vs Arianism (historians said of the time:  "St Athanasius was against the world")
2.  St Thomas More/St John Fisher vs Anglicanism (Bishop Fisher is the only prelate to stand up against heresy)
3.  Pope St Pius X said he was "surrounded by wolves (Modernists)".
.
Truth is not a popularity contest, which is why so many rejected Christ, even His disciples.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 18, 2020, 08:42:03 PM
BzyCat,
Pray and study the doctrines/principles involved.  When you start viewing doctrine through the lens of "popularity" or "personality", you enter the realm of sentimentality.  Let's remember that Church history is full of examples where the "extreme" view was correct, while all others were wrong.  Truth matters, not "sensibility" or "reasonableness" or "earthly sense".
.
1.  St Athanasius vs Arianism (historians said of the time:  "St Athanasius was against the world")
2.  St Thomas More/St John Fisher vs Anglicanism (Bishop Fisher is the only prelate to stand up against heresy)
3.  Pope St Pius X said he was "surrounded by wolves (Modernists)".
.
Truth is not a popularity contest, which is why so many rejected Christ, even His disciples.
It's less the popularity and more so the issue that it's hard to believe it could be so simple and yet have all the trad clergy deny it. I mean, all you guys had to do to dispel "implicit faith BOD" was quote any one of several infallible confirmations of EENS. But of course +ABL and Bishop Williamson etc. are aware of these. So why aren't they convinced? Why isn't there at least a tiny minority of trad priests(who themselves are only a tiny minority of priests in general) speaking out, when it seems to be such a simple and clear-cut issue?

I mean, there are even people on this site who are sometimes in contact with trad bishops. If it's so cut-and-dry, wouldn't shooting a letter out to Bishop Williamson or whoever clear things up?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 18, 2020, 09:01:54 PM

Quote
Why isn't there at least a tiny minority of trad priests(who themselves are only a tiny minority of priests in general) speaking out, when it seems to be such a simple and clear-cut issue?

You're still appealing to "popularity" vs doctrine, but i'll still answer your question.  Firstly, Fr Feeney and Fr Wathen are known as the "only two" who have this "strict" view of EENS.  But that's not true.  They are just the only 2 priests who have the talent/time/vocation to write books.  I know personally of 3-4 Trad priests who agree with Fr Feeney/Wathen (and at least a few more), but they don't have the personality/temperment to write on the subject.  They also feel that the BOD issue is "peanuts" compared to the various other spiritual problems of the day - atheism, impurity, V2, family issues, etc.
.
Bear in mind that the "number of priests" I quote is of small significance.  An anonymous survey would reveal the true facts.  There are many new-sspx priests who don't care about BOD but "toe the line" of the society for the good of the faithful.  Same would be true of the sede-groups.  The leaders of the sspx and sede-groups have often been the directors of such theories, propping them up as more important than they are.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 18, 2020, 09:29:58 PM
You're still appealing to "popularity" vs doctrine, but i'll still answer your question.  Firstly, Fr Feeney and Fr Wathen are known as the "only two" who have this "strict" view of EENS.  But that's not true.  They are just the only 2 priests who have the talent/time/vocation to write books.  I know personally of 3-4 Trad priests who agree with Fr Feeney/Wathen (and at least a few more), but they don't have the personality/temperment to write on the subject.  They also feel that the BOD issue is "peanuts" compared to the various other spiritual problems of the day - atheism, impurity, V2, family issues, etc.
.
Bear in mind that the "number of priests" I quote is of small significance.  An anonymous survey would reveal the true facts.  There are many new-sspx priests who don't care about BOD but "toe the line" of the society for the good of the faithful.  Same would be true of the sede-groups.  The leaders of the sspx and sede-groups have often been the directors of such theories, propping them up as more important than they are.
Perhaps this could be the case.  Certainly if a future Pope was to clearly rule that Fr. Feeney and Fr. Wathen are basically correct on this matter, I would submit to it.  But while I suppose its possible that the vast majority of *Traditional* clergy (who's very purpose for existing is resisting modernism) are "just ignoring the plain text of florence" it seems *far* more likely that we need additional clarity here, at a future time.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 18, 2020, 09:31:42 PM
You're still appealing to "popularity" vs doctrine, but i'll still answer your question.  Firstly, Fr Feeney and Fr Wathen are known as the "only two" who have this "strict" view of EENS.  But that's not true.  They are just the only 2 priests who have the talent/time/vocation to write books.  I know personally of 3-4 Trad priests who agree with Fr Feeney/Wathen (and at least a few more), but they don't have the personality/temperment to write on the subject.  They also feel that the BOD issue is "peanuts" compared to the various other spiritual problems of the day - atheism, impurity, V2, family issues, etc.
.
Bear in mind that the "number of priests" I quote is of small significance.  An anonymous survey would reveal the true facts.  There are many new-sspx priests who don't care about BOD but "toe the line" of the society for the good of the faithful.  Same would be true of the sede-groups.  The leaders of the sspx and sede-groups have often been the directors of such theories, propping them up as more important than they are.
It's not the popularity in and of itself; it's that if "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is really as simple as 2+2=4, then it would naturally follow that any priest of good will who looked into it at all would reject implicit faith. And surely that would be a decent number of trad priests at least. So if it is as simple as reading Florence, either they're all wildly uneducated on a basic dogma or they're wilfully ignoring it. What about +ABL? Was he just regurgitating what he was told and seriously never stopped to consider it? I don't think that makes sense.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 18, 2020, 09:34:20 PM
It's not the popularity in and of itself; it's that if "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is really as simple as 2+2=4, then it would naturally follow that any priest of good will who looked into it at all would reject implicit faith. And surely that would be a decent number of trad priests at least. So if it is as simple as reading Florence, either they're all wildly uneducated on a basic dogma or they're wilfully ignoring it. What about +ABL? Was he just regurgitating what he was told and seriously never stopped to consider it? I don't think that makes sense.
That's exactly it.  Ladislaus said on either this thread or another that everyone agreed that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation was essential for salvation prior to 1600.  If that's true, was Lefebvre unaware of it?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 19, 2020, 05:18:24 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue ByzCat3000 has is that salvation via a BOD is denied by only a comparatively very few, while everyone else, including all those in all the trad groups and even the greatest among the Fathers, believe that there is salvation via a BOD - and he wants to understand why that is and/or how a BOD could be denied by anyone.

Is that the issue?





 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 19, 2020, 07:56:39 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue ByzCat3000 has is that salvation via a BOD is denied by only a comparatively very few, while everyone else, including all those in all the trad groups and even the greatest among the Fathers, believe that there is salvation via a BOD - and he wants to understand why that is and/or how a BOD could be denied by anyone.

Is that the issue?





 
Apparently.

A successor to Peter and thousands of bishops in an ecuмenical council (including Archbishop Lefebvre in most if not all cases) could promulgate and/or approve of the docuмents of Vatican II - despite the protection of the Holy Ghost - and yet the fact that the vast and overwhelming majority of Trad priests and bishops (without that same charism) don't see the errors of BOD is a major hurdle to accepting that BOD could be error. 

If Byz and forlorn are Sedes, ok. I can understand that - Paul VI was no pope and there was no Holy Ghost protection there. The apparent pre-V2 Magisterial endorsement of BOD is ratified by a true Magisterium having that protection from that kind of massive doctrinal error.

If they are not Sedes, I don't understand the problem. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 19, 2020, 08:16:47 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but the issue ByzCat3000 has is that salvation via a BOD is denied by only a comparatively very few, while everyone else, including all those in all the trad groups and even the greatest among the Fathers, believe that there is salvation via a BOD - and he wants to understand why that is and/or how a BOD could be denied by anyone.

Is that the issue?
My issue, which I think ByzCat shares, is that if disproving the implicit faith form of BOD is as simple as saying:

Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Heathens are outside of the Church.
Conclusion: Heathens cannot be saved.

Then the only way someone could believe in "implicit faith" is if they were uneducated or of ill-will. The former might fly for a layman, but every clergyman should surely be aware of what Trent and Florence say about salvation. So it's pretty hard to see how a priest, let alone a bishop, could possibly believe in implicit faith in good-will and material error, if it really is that simply disproven.

This leaves two options. Either the SSPX, Resistance, CMRI et al. are all formal heretics or the issue of implicit faith is not so easily disproven as is suggested. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2020, 09:00:44 AM
Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Heathens are outside of the Church.
Conclusion: Heathens cannot be saved.

Yes, a variant on this syllogism is what establishes Vatican II ecclesiology as well:

Major:  There's no salvation outside the Church (dogma).
Minor:  Infidels can be saved.
Conclusion:  Infidels can be inside the Church.

So if infidels can be inside the Church, what does that do to the definition of "Church"?  THIS is what most Trads refuse to understand.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 19, 2020, 09:03:28 AM
My issue, which I think ByzCat shares, is that if disproving the implicit faith form of BOD is as simple as saying:

Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Heathens are outside of the Church.
Conclusion: Heathens cannot be saved.

Then the only way someone could believe in "implicit faith" is if they were uneducated or of ill-will. The former might fly for a layman, but every clergyman should surely be aware of what Trent and Florence say about salvation. So it's pretty hard to see how a priest, let alone a bishop, could possibly believe in implicit faith in good-will and material error, if it really is that simply disproven.

This leaves two options. Either the SSPX, Resistance, CMRI et al. are all formal heretics or the issue of implicit faith is not so easily disproven as is suggested.
You bring up something which should be clarified. Most if not all here, to my knowledge, are not accusing the SSPX, Resistance, or CMRI of being formal heretics. A formal heretic is one who rejects the authority of the Church. It can manifest itself in the rejection of a dogma of the Church while maintaining that one does not reject the Church, sure. But not when the Church allows one's position or "interpretation" of the dogma. And the Church has allowed the implicit faith view - certainly not condemned it while its voicing was manifest among theologians - for centuries. 

Which gets us back to the issue of authority, the magisterium. Are you a Sede? If not, the magisterium has not only allowed, but promulgated, Vatican II errors for at least half a century. 

Why could not the magisterium allow, if not promulgate, the errors of BOD then?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Xenophon on September 19, 2020, 09:05:35 AM
How do supporters of BOD and BOB hold the position as a teaching of the church when it isn't to be found anywhere in the infallible pronouncements of the Holy Fathers? The BOD/BOB teaching derives from the authority of the fallible Saints who believed Catechumens, who had knowledge and faith in the trinity would go to purgatory since they still had to suffer the temporal punishments due to sin. (They definitely did not hold that ignorant or obstinate heathens would be saved and go straight to heaven) I believe this comes from people elevating the fallible opinions of theologians which contradicted the higher power to low-key apply salvation to other religions. How does one sincerely get past the point that it's nowhere taught in the infallible dogmatic pronouncements of the church? 

"30. When anyone finds a doctrine clearly established in Augustine, he can absolutely hold and teach it, disregarding any bull of the pope." (condemned) 
Alexander VIII, Decree of the Holy Office, Dec. 7, 1690, Errors of the Jansenists 
Source: Denzinger The Sources of Catholic Dogma 1957
Dz. 1291-1321


Furthermore, St. Thomas taught that the infallible pronouncements of the church must be adhered to if there are any contradictions by the doctors of the church. 

"The custom of the Church has very great authority and ought to be jealously observed in all things, since the very doctrine of catholic doctors derives its authority from the Church. Hence we ought to abide by the authority of the Church rather than by that of an Augustine or a Jerome or of any doctor whatever." St. Thomas II-II, Q10, A12

Lastly, here is an example I found of how missionaries did not hold any notion of BOD or BOB;

"One of the things that most of all pains and torments these Japanese is, that we teach them that the prison of hell is irrevocably shut, so that there is no egress therefrom. For they grieve over the fate of their departed children, of their parents and relatives, and they often show their grief by their tears. So they ask us if there is any hope, any way to free them by prayer from that eternal misery, and I am obliged to answer that there is absolutely none. Their grief at this affects and torments them wonderfully; they almost pine away with sorrow. But there is this good thing about their trouble—it makes one hope that they will all be the more laborious for their own salvation, lest they, like their forefathers, should be condemned to everlasting punishment. They often ask if God cannot take their fathers out of hell, and why their punishment must never have an end. We gave them a satisfactory answer, but they did not cease to grieve over the misfortune of their relatives; and I can hardly restrain my tears sometimes at seeing men so dear to my heart suffer such intense pain about a thing which is already done with and can never be undone.

...

Before their baptism the converts of Amanguchi were greatly troubled and pained by a hateful and annoying scruple—that God did not appear to them merciful and good, because He had never made Himself known to the Japanese before our arrival, especially if it were true that those who had not worshipped God as we preached were doomed to suffer everlasting punishment in hell. It seemed to them that He had forgotten and as it were neglected the salvation of all their ancestors, in permitting them to be deprived of the knowledge of saving truths, and thus to rush headlong on eternal death. It was this painful thought which, more than anything else, kept them back from the religion of the true God. But by the divine mercy all their error and scruple was taken away. We began by proving to them that the divine law is the most ancient of all. Before receiving their institutions from the Chinese, the Japanese knew by the teaching of nature that it was wicked to kill, to steal, to swear falsely, and to commit the other sins enumerated in the ten commandments, a proof of this being the remorse of conscience to which any one guilty of one of these crimes was certain to be a prey. We showed them that reason itself teaches us to avoid evil and to do good, and that this is so deeply implanted in the hearts of men, that all have the knowledge of the divine law from nature, and from God the Author of nature, before they receive any external instruction on the subject. . . . This being so, it necessarily follow that before any laws were made by men the divine law existed innate in the hearts of all men. The converts were so satisfied with this reasoning, as to see no further difficulty; so that this net having been broken, they received from us with a glad heart the sweet yoke of our Lord. . . ." The Life and Letters of St. Francis Xavier 1552, "To The Society in Europe
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 19, 2020, 09:30:18 AM
My issue, which I think ByzCat shares, is that if disproving the implicit faith form of BOD is as simple as saying:

Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Heathens are outside of the Church.
Conclusion: Heathens cannot be saved.

Then the only way someone could believe in "implicit faith" is if they were uneducated or of ill-will. The former might fly for a layman, but every clergyman should surely be aware of what Trent and Florence say about salvation. So it's pretty hard to see how a priest, let alone a bishop, could possibly believe in implicit faith in good-will and material error, if it really is that simply disproven.

This leaves two options. Either the SSPX, Resistance, CMRI et al. are all formal heretics or the issue of implicit faith is not so easily disproven as is suggested.

To follow up on my last post, we (or at least I) am not speaking of heresy, but error.

One does not have to be "uneducated" or of "ill will" to be in error.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 19, 2020, 10:31:48 AM
You bring up something which should be clarified. Most if not all here, to my knowledge, are not accusing the SSPX, Resistance, or CMRI of being formal heretics. A formal heretic is one who rejects the authority of the Church. It can manifest itself in the rejection of a dogma of the Church while maintaining that one does not reject the Church, sure. But not when the Church allows one's position or "interpretation" of the dogma. And the Church has allowed the implicit faith view - certainly not condemned it while its voicing was manifest among theologians - for centuries.

Which gets us back to the issue of authority, the magisterium. Are you a Sede? If not, the magisterium has not only allowed, but promulgated, Vatican II errors for at least half a century.

Why could not the magisterium allow, if not promulgate, the errors of BOD then?
I'm not accusing them of formal heresy myself, but I see it as the logical conclusion of the hypothetical where implicit faith is refuted that simply. I say hypothetical because I think it's not so easily refuted as just quoting Trent, even if it may appear that way.

I definitely was a sedevacantist for a while, and I wouldn't call myself a sedeplenist now either. I have no idea really and I'm not satisfied with any position at present, so I just try to avoid it as much as possible, but if I was pressed to answer I'd say I lean towards sedeprivationism. I don't see the relevance here though. Every trad is willing to admit that Rome is full of heretics; +ABL, Bishop Williamson and others have even described many in Rome as believing in a false religion altogether. But if +ABL and co. were heretics too for flatly denying a dogma, that'd certainly be news.

I see what you're getting at with the theologian argument, but you could apply that to Novus Ordo bishops then too, couldn't you? When Bishop Barron says there is hope Hell is empty and the Vatican says nothing, is he in the clear?

To follow up on my last post, we (or at least I) am not speaking of heresy, but error.

One does not have to be "uneducated" or of "ill will" to be in error.
You don't have to be uneducated or ill will to be in error about something complex and difficult, but you would be one or the other if you denied 2+2=4. My point is that for educated clergymen to be in error in good faith about implicit faith, the issue would have to be much more complicated than is being concluded here. If it really is as simple as "no salvation outside the Church, ergo anyone who isn't visibly within the Church isn't saved"(which I fully admit is the simplest and most literal interpretation), then anyone who accepts implicit faith would either be ignorant of basic dogma or wilfully ignoring it. So how could well-educated bishops be accepting it in good faith?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 19, 2020, 10:57:03 AM
My issue, which I think ByzCat shares, is that if disproving the implicit faith form of BOD is as simple as saying:

Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Heathens are outside of the Church.
Conclusion: Heathens cannot be saved.

Then the only way someone could believe in "implicit faith" is if they were uneducated or of ill-will. The former might fly for a layman, but every clergyman should surely be aware of what Trent and Florence say about salvation. So it's pretty hard to see how a priest, let alone a bishop, could possibly believe in implicit faith in good-will and material error, if it really is that simply disproven.

This leaves two options. Either the SSPX, Resistance, CMRI et al. are all formal heretics or the issue of implicit faith is not so easily disproven as is suggested.
This is exactly it.  My argument is *not* that the trad clergy *couldn't* be wrong about this.  Its that if they are, I need a better *explanation* than what I'm currently getting.  Pax Vobis says "Study it more" but ultimately there isn't much to study in his argument because his argument is in essence "The dogmas say what they say."  If I can know that and act upon it, surely so can Archbishop Lefebvre.

Yet clearly Lefebvre opposed Vatican II and modernism, but didn't see this issue as being a case of modernism.  So there needs to be some explanation for that.

Since I saw Bishop Barron referenced... I mean... I'm not going to say he's a formal heretic (because there's no way I could know), but I certainly think his universalist speculation contradicts the fifth (was it the sixth?  I could be wrong here) ecuмneical council and thus is objectively heretical, furthermore, Bishop Barron obviously not only accepts Vatican II but fully embraces it and John Paul II's magisterial teaching, and seems to primarily base his theology on these, rather than the past, so its not surprising to me that he'd hold to views on salvation that aren't congruent with the past (whether in good faith or not.)  It seems much less reasonable to make such an assertion about all the Sede and SSPX clergy that specifically *dissented* against V2 because it didn't conform to the past.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 19, 2020, 11:12:35 AM
Yes, a variant on this syllogism is what establishes Vatican II ecclesiology as well:

Major:  There's no salvation outside the Church (dogma).
Minor:  Infidels can be saved.
Conclusion:  Infidels can be inside the Church.

So if infidels can be inside the Church, what does that do to the definition of "Church"?  THIS is what most Trads refuse to understand.
Here's the thing that bugs me about V2.  Even if some infidels (individuals) can be inside the Church, their communities as a whole are not, and there is *no way* to know *which* infidels are inside the Church and which are not.  Consequently, we must avoid all interfaith prayer, ecuмenism, etc. and we must strive to convert all infidels to a formal and visible membership in the Church even if/while we affirm that by extraordinary grace and perfect contrition such people "may with difficulty be saved because error is an obstacle to the Holy Ghost" (to approximate Lefebvre's quote from memory.)  Since Vatican II at the very least is not clear that such ecuмenism, interfaith worship, or *assumption* of specific infidels as being in the Church, it must be rejected, even if we assume that the idea's of invincible ignorance and implicit faith that you see in the Trad clergy, and that the Trad clergy believe they see in Pope Pius IX and the Catechism of St Pius X, are true.

This argument isn't proof that the trad clergy are right, but I believe it demonstrates that it is not per se contradictory to allow for salvation of some infidel individuals and still reject Vatican II.  

To be clear, i suppose if you were *just* to narrow down to the subsist in, point, specifically, you might have a point, but your argument usually goes beyond that.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 19, 2020, 11:17:49 AM
Apparently.

A successor to Peter and thousands of bishops in an ecuмenical council (including Archbishop Lefebvre in most if not all cases) could promulgate and/or approve of the docuмents of Vatican II - despite the protection of the Holy Ghost - and yet the fact that the vast and overwhelming majority of Trad priests and bishops (without that same charism) don't see the errors of BOD is a major hurdle to accepting that BOD could be error.

If Byz and forlorn are Sedes, ok. I can understand that - Paul VI was no pope and there was no Holy Ghost protection there. The apparent pre-V2 Magisterial endorsement of BOD is ratified by a true Magisterium having that protection from that kind of massive doctrinal error.

If they are not Sedes, I don't understand the problem.
I'm not a Sede, but I think non Sede trads even still know that there are aware that there's a difference between the last six pontificates and the previous ones.  I don't think R + R (a term I accept as a rough estimate of my position, but not as an absolute rigid category lest it bind me to some positions I don't personally take) is supposed to mean just flippantly going "well its not ex cathedra tho" to the pre vatican II popes.  Certainly something unusual is happening during this time, and while I pray for Francis as my hierarchical superior (since I believe I am obliged to at least presume him such until the Church clearly tells me he is not) and obey any of his commands which I can lawfully obey, I am not going to pretend I am able to relate to him in the same way I could Pius XII.

At any rate, I'm not necessarily saying BOD *couldn't* be wrong because the Holy Spirit preserved it from error.  I'm just not seeing how if "read Florence its really clear" type argument was so simple and so true, that all the trad clergy could've missed it.  I must conclude therefore that it is not this simple, it cannot be, or else they would all indeed be formal heretics for denying such a plain and obvious truth.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 19, 2020, 03:30:56 PM
My argument is *not* that the trad clergy *couldn't* be wrong about this.  Its that if they are, I need a better *explanation* than what I'm currently getting. 
The first thing you need to do is to determine the truth of the matter for yourself - which is basically what Pax said. Once you know *and* accept the truth, then you can try and come up with an explanation as to why everybody else does not accept the truth, or got such a simple thing so wrong. If you ever find the truth for yourself, then go ahead and start trying to tell them they are wrong - be prepared to hit a granite wall. Then you can determine for your self why they put up this wall.

Take Sean Johnson for just one example, he posted a dissertation titled; "What is the Church's teaching on the Necessity of Baptism?" which did not say a thing about what the Church teaches, rather the whole thing was ideas about a BOD - something the Church does not teach at all. Why did he and why do pretty much all BODers do that? You tell me.

When I posted (https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/implicit-bod/msg714564/#msg714564) in only a few sentences quotes from Trent which is actually what the Church does teach about the necessity of baptism, he tells me I do not understand what I am reading lol.

It's never ending with BODers. They have got to let those outside of the Church into heaven at all costs no matter what, all the while insisting a BOD is a doctrine, and in the process completely blind themselves to dogma in order to achieve this.

So if you ever come up with an explanation, although it's not expedient for you to do so, please let us know.



  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 19, 2020, 04:25:15 PM

Quote
My issue, which I think ByzCat shares, is that if disproving the implicit faith form of BOD is as simple as saying:

Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Heathens are outside of the Church.
Conclusion: Heathens cannot be saved.

Then the only way someone could believe in "implicit faith" is if they were uneducated or of ill-will.

You guys aren't being specific enough in your language.  "Implicit faith" in what?
.
Implicit Faith in Incarnation/Trinity - possibly acceptable, for a catechumen, per St Alphonsus.
Implicit Faith in God...no dice.  That isn't orthodox and there's no basis for it in Church history.
.
A catechumen is one who accepts the Faith, or is very serious about it and has studied it, therefore they are no longer "heathens".  So, the above analogy doesn't apply.
.
Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Catechumens are outside of the Church officially, but may be considered partial members (in some circuмstances).
Conclusion: Catechumens could be saved, if they truly desire Baptism/Faith and if (for some reason) God takes their life before the sacrament.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: forlorn on September 19, 2020, 04:31:17 PM
You guys aren't being specific enough in your language.  "Implicit faith" in what?
.
Implicit Faith in Incarnation/Trinity - possibly acceptable, for a catechumen, per St Alphonsus.
Implicit Faith in God...no dice.  That isn't orthodox and there's no basis for it in Church history.
.
A catechumen is one who accepts the Faith, or is very serious about it and has studied it, therefore they are no longer "heathens".  So, the above analogy doesn't apply.
.
Major: Outside of the Church is no salvation.
Minor: Catechumens are outside of the Church officially, but may be considered partial members (in some circuмstances).
Conclusion: Catechumens could be saved, if they truly desire Baptism/Faith and if (for some reason) God takes their life before the sacrament.
The SSPX et. al teach that people who die in false religions can be saved, so it's the latter implicit faith I meant. I wouldn't really classify the former as implicit faith since, like you said, catechumens accept the Faith(at least to some limited understanding of it).
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 19, 2020, 06:51:32 PM
The SSPX et. al teach that people who die in false religions can be saved, so it's the latter implicit faith I meant. I wouldn't really classify the former as implicit faith since, like you said, catechumens accept the Faith(at least to some limited understanding of it).
This is the problem with BOD, you never know what variety of BOD their believers are talking about. Implicit Faith is one thing and Implicit Baptism of Desire in another. Unfortunately as one can see from this conversation, one has to constantly use entire descriptions:

1) Salvation by Implicit Faith in  God that rewards. Implicitly a Hindu by his belief in his god ( a rock on his mantle)  that rewards, he implicitly believes in the Holy Trinity, and the Incarnation (that Jesus Christ is God)

2) Implicit Baptism of Desire of the person that wants to be a Catholic but does not know he has to be baptized. Implicitly he desires baptism.

I do not believe in either and I think that anyone that believes #1 can be made to believe anything. As far as #2, if that was all that was being debated, there would not be one sentence written about it by anyone in the last 400 years.  
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Pax Vobis on September 19, 2020, 11:35:02 PM

Quote
The SSPX et. al teach that people who die in false religions can be saved, so it's the latter implicit faith I meant.

And no Church Fathers, neither St Augustine, nor St Thomas, nor Trent, nor St Alphonsus back up this view. 
.
St Alphonsus died in 1787, right around the time of the French Revolution, which ushered in political anarchy and masonic influence around the globe, including the Vatican.  Let's not forget that in the late 1800s the masons imprisoned Pius IX and almost killed him.  So are we too naive to think the masons didn't infiltrate the church in the 1800s and start watering-down doctrine, especially EENS?  That's the only explanation for how BOD morphed from St Alphonsus' catechumen to applying to Hindus and Muslims...
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Last Tradhican on September 20, 2020, 01:17:07 AM
And no Church Fathers, neither St Augustine, nor St Thomas, nor Trent, nor St Alphonsus back up this view.  
.
St Alphonsus died in 1787, right around the time of the French Revolution, which ushered in political anarchy and masonic influence around the globe, including the Vatican.  Let's not forget that in the late 1800s the masons imprisoned Pius IX and almost killed him.  So are we too naive to think the masons didn't infiltrate the church in the 1800s and start watering-down doctrine, especially EENS?  That's the only explanation for how BOD morphed from St Alphonsus' catechumen to applying to Hindus and Muslims...
Although the theory of salvation by implicit faith in a god (notice it is not capitalized) that rewards was first postulated in the early 1600's, it was never heard of by anyone but a few theologians in their ivory towers. It was unheard of by priests and the faithful till the very end of the 1800's and it got nowhere till the 20th century.

Keep in mind that the reason that ALL peoples worship their gods is to get something from them, a reward, good weather, food, victories over their enemies, riches, slaves, women.....


Quote
The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, under Pope St. Pius X, in 1907, in answer to a question as to whether Confucius could have been saved, wrote:
 
“It is not allowed to affirm that Confucius was saved. Christians, when interrogated, must answer that those who die as infidels are damned”.
Confucius was damned? What does that say for Buddha, Gandhi, the Dalai Lama, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi...... the "holiest" of pagans? what does that say for the common Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Mason, Jєω.....? 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2020, 08:14:17 AM
Ironically, Archbishop Lefebvre, founder of the SSPX, was in violation of this decree by the Holy Office under St. Pius X that it was not allowed for Catholics to suggest that infidels can be saved.  Same with Bishop Fellay and others who have said the same thing.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2020, 08:34:55 AM
Here's the thing that bugs me about V2.  Even if some infidels (individuals) can be inside the Church, their communities as a whole are not, and there is *no way* to know *which* infidels are inside the Church and which are not.

Yes, this notion of a Church for which there's "no way to know" who's in it and who is not ... this contradicts Tridentine ecclesiology, which taught precisely that the Church is a VISIBLE SOCIETY whose membership is knowable.

Basically, then, to those who think like you here, and that includes a lot of Traditional Catholics, all we have is a shift in presumption.  Whereas the pre-Vatican II Church presumed that these were outside the Church, the post-V2 Church shifted the presumption in their favor.  That is hardly a monumental theological or doctrinal shift, but a practical one.  Now, even the V2 Church states that as a general rule non-Catholics cannot be admitted to the Sacraments because they are not members of the Church and not in "full communion" with the Church, but the 1983 Code of Canon Law states otherwise.

If I were to accept the notion that infidels and other non-Catholics could be within the Church, then I would cease to have anything "bug me" about Vatican II.  It's perfectly logical and consistent, then, with Catholic doctrine.

This is what the Crisis in the Church boils down to.

Either you believe in a Church that is a Visible Society whose membership is knowable or else you believe in a partly-visible-partly-invisible Church in whom are many (or some) who are formally within the Church but materially separated, and therefore not in "FULL" communion with the Church.

Ecuмenism derives very directly from this.  Ecuмenism isn't actually defined, as such, anywhere in Vatican II, but its general sense is that we have these "separated brethren" with whom we are united to a point but with whom we seek a full and perfect union.  This is the notion that the Church is divided (materially) though seeking unity.  Thus the argument that it contradicts Pius XI in Mortalium Animos evaporates by a simple formal/material distinction.  Sure, the Church is one, formally, but it's materially divided.

And then Religious Liberty derives from this also, but a little more indirectly.  If people please God, enter the Church, and save their souls by following their even-erroneous consciences, then, since people have a right to please God, enter the Church, and save their souls, then they have a right to follow their even-erroneous consciences ... thus, Religious Liberty.  By deterring them from following their consciences you could actually be placing an obstacle to their salvation.

THIS IS WHAT THE ENTIRE CRISIS IS ABOUT, and yet Traditional Catholics are for the most part totally asleep to this problem and have even become allies with those who's very principles lead to Vatican II.  You can't believe that non-Catholics are saved and at the same time object to Vatican II ecclesiology.

But God has allowed the fruits of this Vatican II theology to be so rotten that anyone can see that it is wrong and cannot be of God.  As +Vigano has pointed out, it's not a mere "accident," and bad spin or interpretation on Vatican II, but it's VATICAN II ITSELF that has caused this wreckage.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 20, 2020, 08:49:17 AM
Ironically, Archbishop Lefebvre, founder of the SSPX, was in violation of this decree by the Holy Office under St. Pius X that it was not allowed for Catholics to suggest that infidels can be saved.  Same with Bishop Fellay and others who have said the same thing.

Good points, Trad and Lad.

I think of this by Pius IX also in Singulari quadam:

.
Quote
. . firmissime teneamus ex catholica docrtrina unum Deum esse, unam fidem, unum baptisma [Eph. 4:5]; ulterius inquirendo progredi nefas est.

. . . let us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is "one God, one faith, one baptism" [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry.


http://www.geocities.ws/caleb1x/docuмents/singulariquadam.html (http://www.geocities.ws/caleb1x/docuмents/singulariquadam.html)

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 20, 2020, 08:58:35 AM
Forlorn,

Quote
I see what you're getting at with the theologian argument, but you could apply that to Novus Ordo bishops then too, couldn't you? When Bishop Barron says there is hope Hell is empty and the Vatican says nothing, is he in the clear?



Of course. But for the Sede, the Novus Ordo is not the Church and there is no Magisterium regnant. The oversight of the Church (the Magisterium) is not permitting or tolerating Barron's heresy. Big difference.

Quote
I definitely was a sedevacantist for a while, and I wouldn't call myself a sedeplenist now either. I have no idea really and I'm not satisfied with any position at present, so I just try to avoid it as much as possible, but if I was pressed to answer I'd say I lean towards sedeprivationism

I hear you,  and that's sort of where I am.



Quote
 I don't see the relevance here though.



Ok. I already explained that though. 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2020, 10:35:50 AM
I hear you,  and that's sort of where I am.

And I'm sortof right there with the two of you.

I was initially just a generic Traditional Catholic.  Then, when I realized the serious theological problems with R&R, I swung toward the dogmatic sedevacantist spectrum.  After I realized the issues with that, I lean, in principle, towards sedeprivationism.  Now, Chazalism (or whatever you want to call it ... since he denies that it's sedeprivationism and calls it instead sedimpoundism), that would work for me too.  Personally, I'm what one might call a sedimpeditist.  I believe that the legitimate election of removal under duress of Siri as Pope Gregory XVII impeded a canonically-valid election of one Angelo Roncalli and his successors through the death of Sir.  Whatever the solution, the one thing I do not fine possible is that these evils, these heresies, this blasphemous parody of the Catholic Mass could possibly have emanated from the legitimate authority of the See of Peter.  Heck, I could even buy that Paul VI was replaced with a double long before I can accept R&R.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 20, 2020, 09:07:34 PM
Yes, this notion of a Church for which there's "no way to know" who's in it and who is not ... this contradicts Tridentine ecclesiology, which taught precisely that the Church is a VISIBLE SOCIETY whose membership is knowable.

Basically, then, to those who think like you here, and that includes a lot of Traditional Catholics, all we have is a shift in presumption.  Whereas the pre-Vatican II Church presumed that these were outside the Church, the post-V2 Church shifted the presumption in their favor.  That is hardly a monumental theological or doctrinal shift, but a practical one.  Now, even the V2 Church states that as a general rule non-Catholics cannot be admitted to the Sacraments because they are not members of the Church and not in "full communion" with the Church, but the 1983 Code of Canon Law states otherwise.

If I were to accept the notion that infidels and other non-Catholics could be within the Church, then I would cease to have anything "bug me" about Vatican II.  It's perfectly logical and consistent, then, with Catholic doctrine.

This is what the Crisis in the Church boils down to.

Either you believe in a Church that is a Visible Society whose membership is knowable or else you believe in a partly-visible-partly-invisible Church in whom are many (or some) who are formally within the Church but materially separated, and therefore not in "FULL" communion with the Church.

Ecuмenism derives very directly from this.  Ecuмenism isn't actually defined, as such, anywhere in Vatican II, but its general sense is that we have these "separated brethren" with whom we are united to a point but with whom we seek a full and perfect union.  This is the notion that the Church is divided (materially) though seeking unity.  Thus the argument that it contradicts Pius XI in Mortalium Animos evaporates by a simple formal/material distinction.  Sure, the Church is one, formally, but it's materially divided.

And then Religious Liberty derives from this also, but a little more indirectly.  If people please God, enter the Church, and save their souls by following their even-erroneous consciences, then, since people have a right to please God, enter the Church, and save their souls, then they have a right to follow their even-erroneous consciences ... thus, Religious Liberty.  By deterring them from following their consciences you could actually be placing an obstacle to their salvation.

THIS IS WHAT THE ENTIRE CRISIS IS ABOUT, and yet Traditional Catholics are for the most part totally asleep to this problem and have even become allies with those who's very principles lead to Vatican II.  You can't believe that non-Catholics are saved and at the same time object to Vatican II ecclesiology.

But God has allowed the fruits of this Vatican II theology to be so rotten that anyone can see that it is wrong and cannot be of God.  As +Vigano has pointed out, it's not a mere "accident," and bad spin or interpretation on Vatican II, but it's VATICAN II ITSELF that has caused this wreckage.
OK a couple things.

First, unless you're just gonna make the "but its not ex cathedra tho" argument (which you could, but if you did you could also do that with V2 so its a wash), there's a BLATANT doctrinal shift on religious liberty.  Like I see your argument about the shift in presumption even if I don't fully buy it.  But like, "there's no right to religious liberty" vs "there is a right to religious liberty", that's concrete, and we know which side the pre V2 popes were on.  So even if it seemed to "logically follow" from our ecclesiology/EENS theology that you could have liberty of religion, no you still can't.

As far as the presumption shift, hmmmmm

I see what you're arguing at the level of practical theory, but in practice I think we can see that the fruit of that alleged "shift of presumption" is utterly rotten.  I also don't see this as a sheer prudence thing.  If we can't even assume that Catholics normatively have perfect contrition, how much more so non Catholics?  I think, at any rate, that the practical fruit and ministry of Lefebvre's position would practically play out closer to yours than, say, to Bishop Barron's.

I do see the neat and tidiness of being able to say that its absolute though, and as a consequence, that V2's position is not merely grossly imprudent, but out and out heretical.  But then the problem is, you have to say the same thing about the 99% Trad position too.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 20, 2020, 09:48:39 PM
If I were to accept the notion that infidels and other non-Catholics could be within the Church, then I would cease to have anything "bug me" about Vatican II.  It's perfectly logical and consistent, then, with Catholic doctrine.

Vatican 2 isn't about a theological controversy.  It's about a new religion which falsely claims to be Catholic.  The ecclesiological controversy around V2 is certainly an important debate.  But if that was all there was to V2, there would be no traditional Catholic movement, no SSPX, no CMRI, no independent priests.  There was controversy after V2 for sure, but it wasn't until P6 started implementing the new religion starting in 1968 with his fake Holy Orders that the traditional Catholic movement was born (although, I admit that Francis Shukhardt had already publicly declared the Roman See empty in 1967, the exception proves the rule).  And it was the new "Mass" in 1969 that was the rallying point.  So whatever you think about V2 ecclesiology, there is no way that you would have any sede-x position if P6 had not started manufacturing fake sacraments for his new religion.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Clemens Maria on September 20, 2020, 10:09:55 PM
Fr Feeney believed in BOD and he believed that it justified those that received it.  The position that got him in hot water was the he believed that no one could be saved unless they first received the Sacrament of Baptism (which is not valid unless done with natural water).  So that implies that he believed that those who received BOD-only would not receive the grace of final perseverance.  He was not excommunicated for that position.  He was excommunicated because he refused to go to Rome when the pope ordered him to go there (disobedience).  In fact, Ratzinger's CDF confirmed that the strict interpretation of EENS was permissible.  Don't you think that the modernists would have found a way to outlaw that position if they could?  So even if you believe as I do that Ratzinger had no authority, at least you can appreciate his frank admission that there is no evidence that strict EENS is a condemned position.  On the other hand, I see that multiple popes tolerated a more or less subtle denial of strict EENS despite the apparent support for strict EENS in the magisterium. So the debates are going to go on and on until someone in authority puts an end to it.  And maybe like the Molinism debate, it will go on until the end of time, although at least in that case, the anathemas have ceased.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: DecemRationis on September 21, 2020, 08:00:18 AM
Vatican 2 isn't about a theological controversy.  It's about a new religion which falsely claims to be Catholic.  The ecclesiological controversy around V2 is certainly an important debate.  But if that was all there was to V2, there would be no traditional Catholic movement, no SSPX, no CMRI, no independent priests.  There was controversy after V2 for sure, but it wasn't until P6 started implementing the new religion starting in 1968 with his fake Holy Orders that the traditional Catholic movement was born (although, I admit that Francis Shukhardt had already publicly declared the Roman See empty in 1967, the exception proves the rule).  And it was the new "Mass" in 1969 that was the rallying point.  So whatever you think about V2 ecclesiology, there is no way that you would have any sede-x position if P6 had not started manufacturing fake sacraments for his new religion.

Absolutely right. I pointed this out earlier.

There is an element of Phariseeism in this. It's like they were ok with the doctrinal aberration and the attenuating of EENS before V2, but you mess with the ritual and the liturgical cultus and then there's a hubbub.

For example, no matter where you stand on "Feeneyism," I think you must recognize this point. The Holy Office letter concerned itself with issues of From the Housetops, primarily the response of Professor Karam to the Cushingites and their liberal interpretations of EENS that had anyone of "good faith" being saved (the Catholic faith becoming a non-necessity in practice if not in principle), and not one word was directed against that in the HO letter, but the "Feeneyite" rejection of an implicit desire to enter the Church. The Cushingites, if not a greater evil, warranted some censure or comment at the very least - it was they, after all, that inspired the controversy. But not a word about that in the HO letter.

As I said, there was practically no support for Father Feeney and the St. Benedict Center during the roiling controversy.

Wonder where V2 came from?

So, the going along with essentially a V2 ecclesiology - while mouthing a denial of it (not much more than a more vigorous hypocrisy when the roots and principles are examined) - by Trad priests is not much of a mystery, really.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 21, 2020, 11:36:59 AM
Fr Feeney believed in BOD and he believed that it justified those that received it.  The position that got him in hot water was the he believed that no one could be saved unless they first received the Sacrament of Baptism (which is not valid unless done with natural water).  So that implies that he believed that those who received BOD-only would not receive the grace of final perseverance.  He was not excommunicated for that position.  He was excommunicated because he refused to go to Rome when the pope ordered him to go there (disobedience).  In fact, Ratzinger's CDF confirmed that the strict interpretation of EENS was permissible.  Don't you think that the modernists would have found a way to outlaw that position if they could?  So even if you believe as I do that Ratzinger had no authority, at least you can appreciate his frank admission that there is no evidence that strict EENS is a condemned position.  On the other hand, I see that multiple popes tolerated a more or less subtle denial of strict EENS despite the apparent support for strict EENS in the magisterium. So the debates are going to go on and on until someone in authority puts an end to it.  And maybe like the Molinism debate, it will go on until the end of time, although at least in that case, the anathemas have ceased.
I don't see a big issue with what you present here from Fr. Feeney, as long as that's *his opinion*, and not being presented as something that can't be denied without heresy.  That said I've seen other things in Bread of Life that are more concerning to me.  For instance I remember reading a quote where he said that if someone died justified by BOD and outside of mortal sin, he didn't know where that person would go, but neither to heaven or hell. If you just straight up said "yeah, if someone died justified by BOD and not in mortal sin, they would go to heaven, but personally, I just don't think any such people exist" that would make more sense to me.  

I personally don't think the "Feeneyite" view is anathema per se, my main issue is that many of those who take that position *also* think those of us who take the view the *vast* majority of trad clergy take, are heretics.

One way or another I think you're on the right track with that final bit.  I think a Pope (that everyone believes is valid) needs to either rule in favor of one side or the other, OR he needs to rule that both positions are allowed in the Church and the two sides can't anathematize each other, and thats that.  I *tend* to think the best way to resolve the issue would be to not anathematize either side, but to put some guardrails on the "loose EENS" position so it didn't involve getting *too* loose, but that of course is just my opinion.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 21, 2020, 12:02:54 PM
I don't see a big issue with what you present here from Fr. Feeney, as long as that's *his opinion*, and not being presented as something that can't be denied without heresy.  That said I've seen other things in Bread of Life that are more concerning to me.  For instance I remember reading a quote where he said that if someone died justified by BOD and outside of mortal sin, he didn't know where that person would go, but neither to heaven or hell. If you just straight up said "yeah, if someone died justified by BOD and not in mortal sin, they would go to heaven, but personally, I just don't think any such people exist" that would make more sense to me.
Fr. Feeney answered correctly, we do not know where a BOD person would spend eternity because we mere humans cannot know. Heck, if we are to be honest about it, we cannot even know if the BOD person ever actually desired baptism, much less where he spends eternity. 

The saints and theologians who reward the BODer with heaven, no matter how positive they seem to be, are only speculating because that's all they can do in this matter.


Quote
I personally don't think the "Feeneyite" view is anathema per se, my main issue is that many of those who take that position *also* think those of us who take the view the *vast* majority of trad clergy take, are heretics.
This is not true. Most who accept the dogma believe those who believe in a BOD are in error, not heretics. My opinion is when that belief turns to incessant preaching about a BOD - then the preacher is preaching heresy, but I do not think him a heretic. OTOH, When it gets to the point like it did with Lover of Truth where he blindly spammed the forums with dozens upon dozens of a BOD that continued for week after week even months, then that person has earned the title of heretic. 


Quote
One way or another I think you're on the right track with that final bit.  I think a Pope (that everyone believes is valid) needs to either rule in favor of one side or the other, OR he needs to rule that both positions are allowed in the Church and the two sides can't anathematize each other, and thats that.  I *tend* to think the best way to resolve the issue would be to not anathematize either side, but to put some guardrails on the "loose EENS" position so it didn't involve getting *too* loose, but that of course is just my opinion.  
It would be nice for the "true" pope to come out and explicitly condemn or infallibly define a BOD, but I'd be surprised if that happens in our life time. In the mean time, the debates will go on with BODers quoting the Fathers and misunderstanding Trent, while the EENSers will go on quoting the Fathers and echoing Trent.  
 

 
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 21, 2020, 12:08:40 PM


Quote
Fr. Feeney answered correctly, we do not know where a BOD person would spend eternity because we mere humans cannot know. Heck, if we are to be honest about it, we cannot even know if the BOD person ever actually desired baptism, much less where he spends eternity.  
This is a practical issue though.  BOD as a doctrine doesn't say definitively whether any specific individuals really desired baptism, only "if they did, this is what would happen"



Quote
The saints and theologians who reward the BODer with heaven, no matter how positive they seem to be, are only speculating because that's all they can do in this matter.
Trent at least seems to imply it, as a possibility.



Quote
This is not true. Most who accept the dogma believe those who believe in a BOD are in error, not heretics. My opinion is when that belief turns to incessant preaching about a BOD - then the preacher is preaching heresy, but I do not think him a heretic. OTOH, When it gets to the point like it did with Lover of Truth where he blindly spammed the forums with dozens upon dozens of a BOD that continued for week after week even months, then that person has earned the title of heretic.  
Leaving aside that you pretty much seem to be deciding heresy vs error based on annoyance level, I didn't say that *you* think all who believe in BOD are heretics.  I didn't say *all* or *most* "feeneyites" think that.  I just said that  many do, which is true.

The only way you could argue would be I guess to say those people are really dimondites and not feeneyites, which I guess is an issue of terminology.  I use the phrase loosely anyway.

Quote
It would be nice for the "true" pope to come out and explicitly condemn or infallibly define a BOD, but I'd be surprised if that happens in our life time. In the mean time, the debates will go on with BODers quoting the Fathers and misunderstanding Trent, while the EENSers will go on quoting the Fathers and echoing Trent.  
  To be clear, I am not sede just like you aren't, I just worded it that way 'cause I know some people here are.

At any rate, BODers vs EENSers is a really weird way to frame the debate.  First, we all believe in EENS here.  Second,as Ladislaus has pointed out before, its possible even to hold to strict EENS and still believe in BOD.

 

Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2020, 12:20:19 PM
I'd go a step further.  If you take the first "Anaphora" of the NOM, it's basically the Tridentine Canon (with very few variations).  If the NOM reform had simply implemented Canon I and that Mass had continued to be said in Latin, there would have been very little Traditional movement ... apart from, perhaps, the Feeneyite groups.  Most people became Traditional Catholics after watching clown Masses and altar girls and all this other junk.  I know that this is the stuff that opened my eyes to what was going on.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on September 21, 2020, 12:59:25 PM
I'd go a step further.  If you take the first "Anaphora" of the NOM, it's basically the Tridentine Canon (with very few variations).  If the NOM reform had simply implemented Canon I and that Mass had continued to be said in Latin, there would have been very little Traditional movement ... apart from, perhaps, the Feeneyite groups.  Most people became Traditional Catholics after watching clown Masses and altar girls and all this other junk.  I know that this is the stuff that opened my eyes to what was going on.
I will admit this is something I wonder about myself.  Certainly the NO as it is usually celebrated is highly problematic.  And I think that alone is sufficient reason to oppose it.  I've been to two novus ordo masses in my life and something felt wrong, both times.  The first when I was considering conversion, the second as a catechumen.

But was this *original* more conservative NO that you describe, itself sacriligous and offensive to God?  I don't know.  I imagine most people here would say yes, but I'm not sure myself.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Stubborn on September 21, 2020, 01:33:13 PM
This is a practical issue though.  BOD as a doctrine doesn't say definitively whether any specific individuals really desired baptism, only "if they did, this is what would happen"


Trent at least seems to imply it, as a possibility.
Trent actually does not imply that at all, that's the thing that BODers misunderstand.

Again, all Trent says is that justification cannot take place without a desire for the sacrament, which means exactly that.

So we would have to agree that the doctrine of a BOD teaches that without a desire for the sacrament, justification cannot happen - because that's what it says.  What kind of doctrine is that?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2020, 03:14:55 PM
But was this *original* more conservative NO that you describe, itself sacriligous and offensive to God?  I don't know.  I imagine most people here would say yes, but I'm not sure myself.

I do believe so, and I'll explain in a second, but had it been disguised in Traditional trappings, with Latin, Gregorian chant, kneeling for Communion, etc. ... one might be fooled.  I've watched a couple such on EWTN, where the NO was said in Latin, accompanied by chant, the women wore veils, everyone received on the tongue kneeling, etc. ... and it LOOKED Catholic and reverent.

But the context and the theological orientation surrounding it makes it offensive to God.  First, there was a tremendous hubris behind thinking you could just sit down and write up a Mass, when the Mass is considered to be of Immemorial Tradition from the Church Fathers and the Apostles, guided in its development by the Holy Spirit.  Conconcting a New Mass is just a step or two removed from deciding you could write and add a new book to Sacred Scripture.  Then we ask WHY they wanted to do this?  They invited the Protestant ministers to consult, since the intent was to make it less "offensive" to Protestants, and thereby less Catholic.  In the Missale which described the Mass theologically, there was a decided shift from the notion of "sacrifice" to "memorial supper of the Lord".  There was a decided change in the definition of the Mass toward being a gathering of the people (what of the priest offering the Mass alone?).  Finally, the alternative Canons have absolutely no root in Tradition, except for the claim that one does, and that one is actually suspect of being an Arian canon.

Sure, by itself, simplifying the Kyrie eleison - Christe eleison from 9 to 3 is not offensive to God, but the entire context and motive behind the NOM, and the theology surrounding it, this makes it unacceptable as a Catholic Mass and therefore offensive to God.

But had they kept the Latin and chant in place for a while, they would have fooled most and there's likely never to have been a serious Traditional movement, but then at the same time it would not have achieved its intended effect of quickly eroding faith in the Real Presence and in the Holy Sacrifice.

It's as if God, in allowing this crisis, deemed that the enemies of the Church should be allowed to do this but that they should be forced to do it so that it is exposed as the work of the enemy to those who still have the faith.
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: ByzCat3000 on February 12, 2021, 07:39:27 AM
I think that two different considerations are typically conflated in this notion of "implicit" Baptism of Desire.

There's the idea of implicit desire for Baptism proper and then idea of implicit faith.

So, for instance, I am converted to the Church and want to become a Catholic, but I do not form the explicit intention "I desire to be Baptized."  One can see the DESIRE here to be implicit in the desire to become a Catholic.

Then there's the notion of implicit faith, which many have promoted.  "I am a well-meaning pagan who follow my lights regarding the natural law."

So this discussion gets confused the the degrees of "implicit"-ness, i.e. the degrees of separation from the explicit.

It's absolutely indisputed that supernatural faith is required for salvation.  Lots of modern BoDers focus on the "desire" (an act of the will) but ignore the intellectual requirements for salvation, as if one can will to have supernatural faith without believing anything.  What's at issue is what are the requirements to have supernatural faith.  Can faith be implicit in my desire to know God?  All theologians agree that SOME things must be explicitly believed, with the vast majority (and absolute unanimity before the year 1600) holding that explicit belief in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation.  In other words, no Jєω, Muslim, or any kind of infidel can possibly be saved.

This was believed by all Catholics everywhere for the first 1600 years of Church history, meeting the criteria for infallible dogma based on the OUM.  Yet some Jesuits felt they were permitted to theorize that these were not necessary and that it was sufficient for supernatural faith just to believe in a God who rewards the good and punishes the wicked.  This was motivated by the desire to extend the possibility of salvation to infidels.

Of course, recent Novus Ordo developments hold that atheists can be saved without ANY explicit belief whatsoever.

I hold that Rewarder God theory is objectively heretical based on the teachings of the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  Those who lived before Vatican II might be excused of formal heresy because the OUM had not clearly been defined, but this notion must now be rejected as absolutely heretical.
Wait, if the OUM wasn't explicitly defined before Vatican II when was it defined?  Or did you mean VI?
Title: Re: Implicit BOD
Post by: Ladislaus on February 12, 2021, 09:13:50 AM
Wait, if the OUM wasn't explicitly defined before Vatican II when was it defined?  Or did you mean VI?

Sorry, I mean VI.  Just habit of referring to Vatican II all the time here.

Let's assume for a second that we concede that there is such a thing as Baptism of Desire.  What are the requirements and criteria?  What is it and how does it work?  Absent these definitions by the Magisterium, there's no way anyone can say that it's defined.  DEFINITION means clearly laying out what it is and how it works.  If we are required to believe in [something], we need to know what that [something] is that we're believing.  We can't believe in a PHRASE "Baptism of Desire" when there could be a half dozen interpretations of what that even means.  We don't believe in words, but in intelligible propositions.  I've seen some people apply "Baptism of Desire" to BAPTIZED Protestants.  That's nonsense, and betrays the fact that for them Baptism of Desire is synonymous with "sincerity".  Some hold that it only applies to catechumens (St. Robert Bellarmine, for instance), while others hold that it applies only to those who have explicit Catholic faith, others extend it to anyone who believes in the Trinity and Incarnation, yet others to anyone who believes in a Rewarder God, others that it can even apply to Protestants, and, the most recent NO development, even to atheists.  All of these applications imply a decidedly different DEFINITION of what the term even MEANS.  So what are we required to believe "de fide"?  That needs to be made explicit by the Church, or there's no Church definition.  That would be like if the Church had defined "Immaculate Conception" but failed to define what that meant.  "If you don't believe in the Immaculate Conception, then you're anathema."  Great, but is this the Immaculate Conception of Our Lord (as some mistakenly think) or the Immaculate Conception of Our Lady?  Does it refer to Original Sin or to the consequences of Original Sin only, or even just to actual sin.  Now, with Immaculate Conception, the Pope clearly defined WHAT must be believed about it.