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Author Topic: Implicit BOD  (Read 19016 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #85 on: September 17, 2020, 09:42:29 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 16, 2020, 08:25:49 AM
If we can get BOD'ers to accept the more-strict St Thomas/Alphonsus view, then the whole controversy would go away.

/thread

All this back and forth is not about catechumens, it's about non-Catholics who practice and publicly espouse another religion
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Offline trad123

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #86 on: September 17, 2020, 09:56:25 PM »
Arguing over catechumens is a distraction.



https://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/OpenLetterToConfusedCatholics/Chapter-10.htm

An Open Letter to Confused Catholics


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10. Ecuмenism

(. . .)

The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire.  This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church.

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Offline trad123

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #87 on: September 17, 2020, 10:16:49 PM »
There is an interesting preface to an article located here:

SSPX Asia

http://www.sspxasia.com/Docuмents/Archbishop-Lefebvre/Archbishop_Lefebvre_and_the_Vatican/Part_II/1988-05-13.htm

Archbishop LEFEBVRE and the VATICAN


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That Archbishop May considers that these Hindus with their vague search for God will avoid hell, while they are still ignorant of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the only Savior, is tantamount to a practical denial of the Catholic Faith. “But without faith it is impossible to please God. For he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a reminder to them that seek Him” (Heb. 11:6). St. Augustine explains very well that, though ignorance excuses from an additional sin against Faith, it is incapable of cleansing the original sin and other sins with which one’s soul is burdened. Baptism of desire only applies to those who, by a special grace of the Holy Ghost, have received the virtues of the Catholic Faith, Hope and Charity. (See St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, IIIa, Q.66, A.11.) How Archbishop May can apply this doctrine to Hindus “in search of God” is a mystery of iniquity (II Thess. 2:7).



A TALK HEARD ROUND THE WORLD
Angelus, April 2006


http://www.angelusonline.org/index.php?section=articles&subsection=show_article&article_id=2497


Bishop Bernard Fellay

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Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.


But these things are so invisible, so subjective, that the Church has hardly spoken about it. We know the principle, but the Church has never made a practical application of it because it is too sensitive and delicate. Who can know who is in the state of grace or not? The Council of Trent teaches that no one can know it except through a special revelation or illumination from God.


Deuteronomy 5:8-9

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[8] Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. [9] Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them.



Should I be as sharp to Bishop Fellay as the article preface was to Archbishop May?


How Bishop Fellay can conceive of the possibility of a idol worshiping Hindu living according to "the laws which God has put into his heart"  is a mystery of iniquity (II Thess. 2:7).
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #88 on: September 18, 2020, 01:54:13 AM »

Quote
All this back and forth is not about catechumens, it's about non-Catholics who practice and publicly espouse another religion
And that’s the heresy that Fr Feeney was preaching against.  The Modernists pulled a “bait and switch”...and it started back in the 1600s.  The St Augustine, St Thomas, St Alphonsus (even Trent) were ONLY speaking of BOD for catechumens.  Then the Modernists come along and liberalize BOD’s requirement of “faith in Trinity/Incarnation” to simply “faith in God”.  BOD requires a “sincere desire for baptism”; the Modernists switches that to a “sincere desire to do God's will”.
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #89 on: September 18, 2020, 01:59:23 AM »

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You yourself said that to be consistent with his implicit faith form of BOD, +ABL should've accepted Vatican 2 since he was already adopting EENS-denying ecclesiology. And he's far from alone, pretty much all the Trad clergy agree with him. So by your own words, they should all accept Vatican 2 to be logically consistent with their beliefs. 
As I understand him, Lad is only talking about accepting V2 for this one particular point.  Obviously, the other 2 major heresies of V2 (there are a multitude of minor ones) - religious freedom and new-world ecuмenism - are separate issues and most Trads don’t accept these.  
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One could argue that these 2 errors flow from the liberal-BOD view, but most Trads don’t go all the way over the heretical waterfall, even though their liberal-BOD canoe brings them close.  
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