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Author Topic: Implicit BOD  (Read 19031 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #65 on: September 16, 2020, 12:01:01 PM »
The line in the catechism is in the context that it becomes impossible for the person to be baptised, i.e they die before they're baptised.

I disagree.  I've read the original Latin (don't have it anymore) and it's not clear.  There's a tendency in Latin subjunctive clauses to have the sense of a hypothetical, so instead of "if some mishap prevents them", more along the lines of "lest some mishap prevent them".  I read this passage as teaching that God will not allow some mishap to prevent the justification of His elect, while leaving any inferences about BoD unspoken and unresolved.  This was no attempt to teach BoD, just explaining why it's OK to delay the Baptism of adults but not that of infants.  You read too much into it to take this as a teaching of BoD.

Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #66 on: September 16, 2020, 12:14:19 PM »
I disagree.  I've read the original Latin (don't have it anymore) and it's not clear.  There's a tendency in Latin subjunctive clauses to have the sense of a hypothetical, so instead of "if some mishap prevents them", more along the lines of "lest some mishap prevent them".  I read this passage as teaching that God will not allow some mishap to prevent the justification of His elect, while leaving any inferences about BoD unspoken and unresolved.  This was no attempt to teach BoD, just explaining why it's OK to delay the Baptism of adults but not that of infants.  You read too much into it to take this as a teaching of BoD.
Not sure I understand. So you're saying the passage actually means something more along the lines of "lest any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be [baptised], their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to [Baptism]"? As in, God will never let anyone who truly intends to be baptised die before receiving it, and the catechumens who did lacked proper intention(or were unrepentant)?


Offline Stubborn

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2020, 12:21:59 PM »
The line in the catechism is in the context that it becomes impossible for the person to be baptised, i.e they die before they're baptised. Since they can never be baptised, if they were not brought to grace and righteous by their intention to be baptised, then they were and will never be availed or helped to grace and righteousness at all. Without BOD, all an intention to get baptised helps you with is getting you baptised, but if you are never baptised then that intention would ultimately amount to nothing. The only way an intention to be baptised could avail you grace and righteousness without you ever being baptised, is if that intention itself could justify you.

This is what St. Ambrose proposed in the 300s AD, and it's the same way that St. Bellarmine and St. Alphonsus interpreted the aforementioned canon of Trent.
No forlorn, it says simply an unforeseen accident, not an accidental death. Grace and righteousness are for the living, not the dead.

If you read further in the catechism, you will find they teach when there is a danger of death that the person is to be baptized immediately.


In Case Of Necessity Adults May Be Baptised At Once

Sometimes, however, when there exists a just and necessary cause, as in the case of imminent danger of death, Baptism is not to be deferred, particularly if the person to be baptised is well instructed in the mysteries of faith. This we find to have been done by Philip, and by the Prince of the Apostles, when without any delay, the one baptised the eunuch of Queen Candace; the other, Cornelius, as soon as they expressed a wish to embrace the faith.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2020, 12:31:35 PM »
Not sure I understand. So you're saying the passage actually means something more along the lines of "lest any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be [baptised], their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to [Baptism]"? As in, God will never let anyone who truly intends to be baptised die before receiving it, and the catechumens who did lacked proper intention(or were unrepentant)?

Yes, I believe that it's saying exactly that, leaving it open as to HOW God will accomplish this.  Now it's open to a BoD interpretation but it doesn't necessarily mean BoD.  This language seems to be paraphrasing an expression of St. Fulgentius.  I'll try to dig up the quotes (which I have cited here before).

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2020, 12:37:07 PM »
OK, here it is.

St. Fulgentius:
Quote
And as for that young man whom we know to have believed and confessed his faith, ... God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation ...

St. Fulgentius was one of the Fathers who explicitly rejected Baptism of Desire, so how would his faith and confession (i.e. public profession of faith) "avail for his salvation"?

Well, let's finish the sentence:

St. Fulgentius:

Quote
God desired that his confession should avail for his salvation, since he preserved him in this life until the time of his holy regeneration.

St. Fulgentius:
Quote
If anyone is not baptized, not only in ignorance, but even knowingly, he can in no way be saved. For his path to salvation was through the confession, and salvation itself was in baptism. At his age, not only was confession without baptism of no availBaptism itself would be of no avail for salvation if he neither believed nor confessed.