Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Implicit BOD  (Read 18852 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 02:25:45 PM »
 :popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2020, 02:26:22 PM »
However, St. Alphonsus confuses the issue by not positing faith in Christ as essential to an implicit baptism of desire - in the cited quote - but "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost, which is really talking about grace and its work of converting the heart/mind/soul of man.
 
Right, St. Alphonsus is merely talking about the charity aspect of sanctifying grace, and assumes as a sine qua non for charity that there must be supernatural faith.  Trent teaches clearly that no one has ever been justified without faith.  St. Alphonsus himself, for instance, articulated that he believed that explicit faith in the Holy Trinity and Incarnation were necessary for salvation, although he IMO wrongly classified the "Rewarder God" theory as "probable".  In the light of Vatican I's definition of the OUM, it must be regarded as NOT probable.  It's also contrary to the Holy Office teaching, which I believe came out before he wrote that and which trumps St. Alphonsus' opinion, since the Holy Office clearly did not consider it probable.  I surmise that St. Alphonsus was not acquainted with that particular ruling (which I'll have to dig up at some point here).

NB:  When they use the term "probable," it does not mean probable in the sense that it's "probably" the true position.  He actually felt that the other position was the right one and held it himself.  Probable simply means more along the lines of "tenable", though I disagree that it was tenable for the reasons I cited.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2020, 02:33:45 PM »

I asked the question of how the OT saints were justified because I believe that they needed to be justified in a manner that meets the conditions laid down by St. Alphonsus in the quote - "perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things," something brought about by the "wind[flaminis or flamen]" of the impulse of the Holy Ghost.

How else would the OT saints be justified? They could not w/o the operation of the Holy Ghost in a manner that meets St. Alphonsus's definition of BOD.

It was highly disputed among the Church Fathers how the OT just were actually justified and/or saved.  Some Church Fathers actually believed that the reports of the dead coming from their tombs after the Resurrection was for the purpose of their getting baptized, so strongly did they believe in the necessity of Baptism for salvation.  Others felt that circuмcision was required ... leaving the problem of whether the "noble pagan" could be saved.  Others felt that it was faith in the coming Redeemer.  It's not entirely clear.  All the Church Fathers agree, however, that the new economy of salvation after the "promulgation of the Gospel" (the term of St. Thomas) was different and that one could not draw conclusions from the OT dispensation to the requirements for salvation after Our Lord.

I personally believe that the OT just were temporarily raised from the dead and baptized.  If that was not the case, then I believe that God still in an extraordinary manner bestowed the character of Baptism on the OT just so they could enter heaven, since I regard the Baptismal character as being what gives the human soul the capacity to see God as He is in the beatific vision, a faculty which human beings lack by nature.  It is also the mark by which God recognizes in baptized souls the image of His Son and thus admitting them into the family of the Holy Trinity as adopted sons.  That is my biggest issue with Baptism of Desire.  I would be much less averse to the theory if the BoD theorists actually held that those who are justified by BoD somehow receive this character in an extraordinary manner rather than the common opinion that anyone can enter into the Beatific Vision without it.

Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2020, 02:36:53 PM »
:popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

Circuмcision was not the ONLY means of grace, nor was it the only prefigurement of baptism:

The Fathers note that the passage through the Red Sea was also a type of baptism (and of the 600,000 who passed through it, only 2 made it to the promised land).

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: Implicit BOD
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2020, 02:40:29 PM »
:popcorn: If circuмcision itself granted the grace to be saved, then no females were saved?  

Yes, this is a big problem with the circuмcision position.  I personally do not believe that circuмcision remitted Original Sin, as it were, ex opere operato.  So in the OT there were no just women who were saved, not even the likes of St. Ann?  There's something missing with the circuмcision theory.  St. Paul seemed to indicate that OT justification came through faith in the coming Redeemer.