Author Topic: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay) (Read 1974 times)

hollingsworth · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2019, 06:15:53 PM »

This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the Immaculate Conception of Mary. And Bp Fellay, for whom I normally have little respect, should, nevertheless, not be impugned for allegedly declaring or implying that the Immaculate Conception is "no big deal." The bishop has never, to my knowledge, said or implied any such thing.
Matthew needs to go through the CI topics and cull out all the worthless ones. This is just one example of the many threads that are not worth the cyber space they're written in.

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2019, 06:30:02 PM »

Quote from: ByzCat3000 on August 10, 2019, 05:30:21 PM

Yeah this is utterly unrelated to the immaculate conception. This is just a really, really weird way to bash Bishop Fellay for being on a side of the invincible ignorance debate that OP disagrees with. Doesn't Bishop Williamson hold this too? Archbishop Lefebvre did as well.

It has everything to do with the Immaculate Conception because here you have a Hindu who Bp. Fellay claims is either born in a state of sanctifying grace or has put himself in a state of sanctifying grace. What he is actually teaching is teaching salvation by implicit faith, which is what Abp. L, and all who went to his seminaries believe and teach today, that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, indeed people in all religions can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, that they can be saved despite not being baptized, not desiring to be baptized, not desiring to be a Catholic, not believing in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity, and even despising the Catholic Church, AND not being "invincible ignorant". They call it implicit faith because they say that the religion that the person practices shows implicitly that he believes in Christ and the Holy Trinity. This implicit faith trumps all of the dogmas on EENS and thus the person can put himself in a state of grace.

There is not saint that ever taught such a thing, but it is what 99% of people who defend baptism of desire believe, like yourself for example. Don't you believe that?

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2019, 06:40:44 PM »

Quote from: hollingsworth on August 10, 2019, 06:15:53 PM

This topic has nothing whatsoever to do with the Immaculate Conception of Mary. And Bp Fellay, for whom I normally have little respect, should, nevertheless, not be impugned for allegedly declaring or implying that the Immaculate Conception is "no big deal." The bishop has never, to my knowledge, said or implied any such thing.
Matthew needs to go through the CI topics and cull out all the worthless ones. This is just one example of the many threads that are not worth the cyber space they're written in.

If Bishop Fellay were to say the quote below to me, I would respond to him by asking; " Aren't you belittling the Immaculate Conception by teaching that a Hindu can be in a state of sanctifying grace, how did he get rid of original sin without baptism, was he born in a state of sanctifying grace like the Blessed Mother?

Bishop Bernard Fellay, Conference in Denver, Co., Feb. 18, 2006:

“We know that there are two other baptisms, that of desire and that of blood. These produce an invisible but real link with Christ but do not produce all of the effects which are received in the baptism of water… And the Church has always taught that you have people who will be in heaven, who are in the state of grace, who have been saved without knowing the Catholic Church. We know this. And yet, how is it possible if you cannot be saved outside the Church? It is absolutely true that they will be saved through the Catholic Church because they will be united to Christ, to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the Catholic Church. It will, however, remain invisible, because this visible link is impossible for them. Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5.)

Last Tradhican · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2019, 06:53:04 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 10, 2019, 06:40:44 PM

If Bishop Fellay were to say the quote in the OP, I would respond to him by asking; " Aren't you belittling the Immaculate Conception by teaching that a Hindu can be in a state of sanctifying grace, how did he get rid of original sin without baptism, was he born in a state of sanctifying grace like the Blessed Mother?

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Tan Books, p. 243: “For the Eucharist is the end of all the Sacraments, and the symbol of unity and brotherhood in the Church, outside of which none can attain grace.”

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Comparisons among the Sacraments, p. 154: “Though all the Sacraments possess a divine and admirable efficacy, it is well worthy of special remark that all are not of equal necessity or of equal dignity, nor is the signification of all the same.
“Among them three are said to be necessary beyond the rest, although in all three this necessity is not of the same kind. The universal and absolute necessity of Baptism our Savior has declared in these words: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Necessity of Baptism, pp. 176-177: “If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that THE LAW OF BAPTISM, AS ESTABLISHED BY OUR LORD, EXTENDS TO ALL, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5).”

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Definition of Baptism, p. 163: “Unless, says our Lord, a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God (Jn. 3:5); and, speaking of the Church, the Apostle says, cleansing it by the laver of water in the word of life (Eph. 5:26). Thus it follows that Baptism may be rightly and accurately defined: The Sacrament of regeneration by water in the word.”

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Baptism made obligatory after Christ’s Resurrection, p. 171: “Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.”

Catechism of the Council of Trent, Matter of Baptism - Fitness, p. 165: “Upon this subject pastors can teach in the first place that water, which is always at hand and within the reach of all, was the fittest matter of a Sacrament which is necessary to all for salvation.”

Catechism of the Council of Trent, On Baptism – Second Effect: Sacramental Character, p. 159: “In the character impressed by Baptism, both effects are exemplified. By it we are qualified to receive the other Sacraments, and the Christian is distinguished from those who do not profess the faith.”

ByzCat3000 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2019, 07:47:51 PM »

Quote from: Last Tradhican on August 10, 2019, 06:30:02 PM

It has everything to do with the Immaculate Conception because here you have a Hindu who Bp. Fellay claims is either born in a state of sanctifying grace or has put himself in a state of sanctifying grace. What he is actually teaching is teaching salvation by implicit faith, which is what Abp. L, and all who went to his seminaries believe and teach today, that Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhist, Jews, indeed people in all religions can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards, that they can be saved despite not being baptized, not desiring to be baptized, not desiring to be a Catholic, not believing in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity, and even despising the Catholic Church, AND not being "invincible ignorant". They call it implicit faith because they say that the religion that the person practices shows implicitly that he believes in Christ and the Holy Trinity. This implicit faith trumps all of the dogmas on EENS and thus the person can put himself in a state of grace.

There is not saint that ever taught such a thing, but it is what 99% of people who defend baptism of desire believe, like yourself for example. Don't you believe that?

I think "despising the Catholic Church", and "invincibly ignorant" are probably contradictory concepts. I'm not certain its possible to be saved without a belief in the Holy Trinity, and I've never said I'm *certain* of this, but if they were, it would still be by the grace of God, not because they "put themselves in a State of Grace" but because God somehow did so. And nobody says any Hindu is born in a state of grace.

More to the point, this still has nothing to do with the immaculate conception.

CathInfo.com

Author Topic: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay) (Read 1974 times)

hollingsworth

Re: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay)

Last Tradhican

Re: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay)

Last Tradhican

Re: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay)

Last Tradhican

Re: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay)

ByzCat3000

Re: Immaculate Conception, No Big Deal (Bp. Fellay)