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Author Topic: If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?  (Read 5527 times)

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Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2013, 07:03:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Cantarella

    Not all of the the Fathers, Doctors, Popes, and Saints, have agreed on Baptism of Desire. BoD has not been uninimously taught by the Church Fathers.


    Baptism of desire is a dogma taught by the Council of Trent...

    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

    Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    It does not get any clearer. The Church interprets Scripture and Papal decrees, not any individual.


    Quote from: Cantarella

    I am not saying those who do, are not aware of Our Lord's words, but they have not taken them literally. If you start "interpreting" Our Lord's teachings, you start falling into protestant heresy.


    Exactly. It is the Church who interprets Our Lord's teachings. She did so, infallibly at the Council of Trent as well as in her Ordinary Universal Magisterium which has never condemned or even questioned any of the multitude of saints, doctors, popes, councils or catechisms which taught it for nearly 2000 years.


    Are you a sede?  If not, how do you explain the fact that there are followers of Father Feeney who are in full communion with Rome?


    Answer to first question is negative. Answer to the second question... Rome has lost the faith. The fact that heretics (material or formal) are in either partial or full communion with Rome is irrelevant at this time. We are required to stand fast and hold the traditions.

    Offline Jehanne

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #31 on: September 25, 2013, 07:09:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Answer to first question is negative. Answer to the second question... Rome has lost the faith. The fact that heretics (material or formal) are in either partial or full communion with Rome is irrelevant at this time. We are required to stand fast and hold the traditions.


    Then, are you saying that Saint Augustine died as a public heretic for his final view on Baptism of Desire?


    Offline Cantarella

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #32 on: September 25, 2013, 07:17:16 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Cantarella

    Not all of the the Fathers, Doctors, Popes, and Saints, have agreed on Baptism of Desire. BoD has not been uninimously taught by the Church Fathers.


    Baptism of desire is a dogma taught by the Council of Trent...

    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

    Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    It does not get any clearer. The Church interprets Scripture and Papal decrees, not any individual.


    Quote from: Cantarella

    I am not saying those who do, are not aware of Our Lord's words, but they have not taken them literally. If you start "interpreting" Our Lord's teachings, you start falling into protestant heresy.


    Exactly. It is the Church who interprets Our Lord's teachings. She did so, infallibly at the Council of Trent as well as in her Ordinary Universal Magisterium which has never condemned or even questioned any of the multitude of saints, doctors, popes, councils or catechisms which taught it for nearly 2000 years.



    You are talking here about justification, not salvation. There are two different things. Justification is only the first step of salvation, the entrance into a state of sanctifying grace. One can be justified but not saved.

    I agree that The council of Trent is saying two things: that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, and that the grace of justification is given only through the sacrament or the desire thereof.

    Notice the word "justification".

    Also, it is important to remember that in the Council of Trent, the subject of justification was covered for both Old Testament souls, as well, as New Testament souls, so that is why the Council allows the distinction between the actual reception of Baptism and the desire to receive it. A man in the Old Testament did not need to be baptized with water. A man in the New Testament does.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #33 on: September 25, 2013, 07:27:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Yes, you did!  Fact is that Saint Augustine changed his mind with respect to "Baptism of Desire":

    Quote
    "...we have to admit...that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already 'Christianus', and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen 57 and Gregory of Nyssa 58 deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.


    http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/laisneyism.html

    So, did Saint Augustine die as a heretic?


    I have heard that argument before.  And I have heard it refuted.  But why are you concerned about Augustine, when you ignore all the other Fathers, Doctors, Popes, Saints, the Holy Office and theologians who contradict you and Father Feeney?

    Did all of the above also change their mind?  This should make the latest headlines.  It would be of great interest to me if they did.


    YOU CONTINUE WITH AMAZING HYPOCRICY. It is you who ignores ALL the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and the Athanasian Creed in your belief that any unbaptized person can be saved, even if they have no desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation.


    Any unbaptized person can be saved? Who said that? Those unbaptized must be ignorant of the Catholic faith through no fault of their own, and God is the final judge in this matter (not you or I). They also must have no mortal sin on their soul. As far as the Athanasian Creed, again culpability is involved. Would a child below the age of reason, or one who is mentally handicapped necessarily have to believe in the Trinity and incarnation for salvation? No, obviously. Let the Church do the interpreting of her docuмents. The Council of Trent plus nearly 2000 years of Church teaching of baptism of desire and blood by various doctors, saints, popes, councils and catechisms without any condemnation or questioning proves that it is a dogma, both through the Extraordinary and in the Ordinary Magisterium.


    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #34 on: September 25, 2013, 07:30:05 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Lover of Truth
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Yes, you did!  Fact is that Saint Augustine changed his mind with respect to "Baptism of Desire":

    Quote
    "...we have to admit...that the testimony of the Fathers, with regard to the possibility of salvation for someone outside the Church, is very weak. Certainly even the ancient Church knew that the grace of God can be found also outside the Church and even before Faith. But the view that such divine grace can lead man to his final salvation without leading him first into the visible Church, is something, at any rate, which met with very little approval in the ancient Church. For, with reference to the optimistic views on the salvation of catechumens as found in many of the Fathers, it must be noted that such a candidate for baptism was regarded in some sense or other as already 'Christianus', and also that certain Fathers, such as Gregory nαzιanzen 57 and Gregory of Nyssa 58 deny altogether the justifying power of love or of the desire for baptism. Hence it will be impossible to speak of a consensus dogmaticus in the early Church regarding the possibility of salvation for the non-baptized, and especially for someone who is not even a catechumen. In fact, even St. Augustine, in his last (anti-pelagian) period, no longer maintained the possibility of a baptism by desire.


    http://www.marycoredemptrix.com/laisneyism.html

    So, did Saint Augustine die as a heretic?


    I have heard that argument before.  And I have heard it refuted.  But why are you concerned about Augustine, when you ignore all the other Fathers, Doctors, Popes, Saints, the Holy Office and theologians who contradict you and Father Feeney?

    Did all of the above also change their mind?  This should make the latest headlines.  It would be of great interest to me if they did.


    YOU CONTINUE WITH AMAZING HYPOCRICY. It is you who ignores ALL the Fathers, Saints, Doctors and the Athanasian Creed in your belief that any unbaptized person can be saved, even if they have no desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation.


    Any unbaptized person can be saved? Who said that? Those unbaptized must be ignorant of the Catholic faith through no fault of their own, and God is the final judge in this matter (not you or I). They also must have no mortal sin on their soul. As far as the Athanasian Creed, again culpability is involved. Would a child below the age of reason, or one who is mentally handicapped necessarily have to believe in the Trinity and incarnation for salvation? No, obviously. Let the Church do the interpreting of her docuмents. The Council of Trent plus nearly 2000 years of Church teaching of baptism of desire and blood by various doctors, saints, popes, councils and catechisms without any condemnation or questioning proves that it is a dogma, both through the Extraordinary and in the Ordinary Magisterium.



    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #35 on: September 25, 2013, 07:53:21 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Answer to first question is negative. Answer to the second question... Rome has lost the faith. The fact that heretics (material or formal) are in either partial or full communion with Rome is irrelevant at this time. We are required to stand fast and hold the traditions.


    Then, are you saying that Saint Augustine died as a public heretic for his final view on Baptism of Desire?


    Didn't St. Thomas Aquinas reject what is now the dogma of the Immaculate Conception? Was he a public heretic? Obviously not. As I said before, if there were any doubts regarding baptism of desire and blood, they were cleared up by the Council of Trent (infallibly) as well as by 2000 years of teaching on baptism of desire and blood without a single condemnation.

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #36 on: September 25, 2013, 08:18:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Cantarella
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Cantarella

    Not all of the the Fathers, Doctors, Popes, and Saints, have agreed on Baptism of Desire. BoD has not been uninimously taught by the Church Fathers.


    Baptism of desire is a dogma taught by the Council of Trent...

    CANON IV.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous; and that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification;-though all (the sacraments) are not ineed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

    Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."


    It does not get any clearer. The Church interprets Scripture and Papal decrees, not any individual.


    Quote from: Cantarella

    I am not saying those who do, are not aware of Our Lord's words, but they have not taken them literally. If you start "interpreting" Our Lord's teachings, you start falling into protestant heresy.


    Exactly. It is the Church who interprets Our Lord's teachings. She did so, infallibly at the Council of Trent as well as in her Ordinary Universal Magisterium which has never condemned or even questioned any of the multitude of saints, doctors, popes, councils or catechisms which taught it for nearly 2000 years.



    You are talking here about justification, not salvation. There are two different things. Justification is only the first step of salvation, the entrance into a state of sanctifying grace. One can be justified but not saved.

    I agree that The council of Trent is saying two things: that the sacraments are necessary for salvation, and that the grace of justification is given only through the sacrament or the desire thereof.

    Notice the word "justification".

    Also, it is important to remember that in the Council of Trent, the subject of justification was covered for both Old Testament souls, as well, as New Testament souls, so that is why the Council allows the distinction between the actual reception of Baptism and the desire to receive it. A man in the Old Testament did not need to be baptized with water. A man in the New Testament does.



    So those who die in a state of justification without water baptism go to Hell?

    Offline Jehanne

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #37 on: September 25, 2013, 08:36:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Answer to first question is negative. Answer to the second question... Rome has lost the faith. The fact that heretics (material or formal) are in either partial or full communion with Rome is irrelevant at this time. We are required to stand fast and hold the traditions.


    Then, are you saying that Saint Augustine died as a public heretic for his final view on Baptism of Desire?


    Didn't St. Thomas Aquinas reject what is now the dogma of the Immaculate Conception? Was he a public heretic? Obviously not. As I said before, if there were any doubts regarding baptism of desire and blood, they were cleared up by the Council of Trent (infallibly) as well as by 2000 years of teaching on baptism of desire and blood without a single condemnation.


    If the Council of Trent wanted to declare that there are souls in Paradise who, since the promulgation of the Law of Baptism, lacked the character thereof, the Council could have declared, in addition to its 125 anathemas, the following one:

    Quote
    If anyone says that there are no souls in Paradise who, since the Law of Baptism became binding upon all, lack the sacramental character of Baptism, let him be anathema.


    Instead, the Roman Catechism declared the following:

    Quote
    Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ's Resurrection

    The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.


    The only "exception" which the Roman Catechism gives is as follows:

    Quote
    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once

    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.


    However, the Roman Catechism also states,

    Quote
    "Almighty"

    The Sacred Scriptures, in order to mark the piety and devotion with which the most holy name of God is to be adored, usually express His supreme power and infinite majesty in a variety of ways; but the pastor should, first of all, teach that almighty power is most frequently attributed to Him. Thus He says of Himself: I am the almighty Lord and again, Jacob when sending his sons to Joseph thus prayed for them: May my almighty God make him favourable to you. In the Apocalypse also it is written: The Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the almighty; and in another place the last day is called the great day of the almighty God. Sometimes the same attribute is expressed in many words; thus: No word shall be impossible with God; Is the hand of the Lord unable? Thy power is at hand when thou wiIt, and so on.

    But though God can do all things, yet He cannot lie, or deceive, or be deceived; He cannot sin, or cease to exist, or be ignorant of anything. These defects are compatible with those beings only whose actions are imperfect; but God, whose acts are always most perfect, is said to be incapable of such things, simply because the capability of doing them implies weakness, not the supreme and infinite power over all things which God possesses. Thus we so believe God to be omnipotent that we exclude from Him entirely all that is not intimately connected and consistent with the perfection of His nature.

    Why Omnipotence Alone Is Mentioned In The: Creed

    The pastor should point out the propriety and wisdom of having omitted all other names of God in the Creed, and of having proposed to us only that of almighty as the object of our belief. For by acknowledging God to be omnipotent, we also of necessity acknowledge Him to be omniscient, and to hold all things in subjection to His supreme authority and dominion. When we do not doubt that He is omnipotent, we must be also convinced of everything else regarding Him, the absence of which would render His omnipotence altogether unintelligible.

    God Preserves, Rules And Moves All Created Things

    We are not, however, to understand that God is in such wise the Creator and Maker of all things that His works, when once created and finished, could thereafter continue to exist unsupported by His omnipotence. For as all things derive existence from the Creator's supreme power, wisdom, and goodness, so unless preserved continually by His Providence, and by the same power which produced them, they would instantly return into their nothingness. This the Scriptures declare when they say: How could anything endure if thou wouldst not? or be preserved, if not called by thee?


    Therefore, if there are individuals in Paradise who died without Baptism, it was only because the One and Triune God allowed them to end this life without that Sacrament.


    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #38 on: September 25, 2013, 08:52:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Jehanne
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Answer to first question is negative. Answer to the second question... Rome has lost the faith. The fact that heretics (material or formal) are in either partial or full communion with Rome is irrelevant at this time. We are required to stand fast and hold the traditions.


    Then, are you saying that Saint Augustine died as a public heretic for his final view on Baptism of Desire?


    Didn't St. Thomas Aquinas reject what is now the dogma of the Immaculate Conception? Was he a public heretic? Obviously not. As I said before, if there were any doubts regarding baptism of desire and blood, they were cleared up by the Council of Trent (infallibly) as well as by 2000 years of teaching on baptism of desire and blood without a single condemnation.


    If the Council of Trent wanted to declare that there are souls in Paradise who, since the promulgation of the Law of Baptism, lacked the character thereof, the Council could have declared, in addition to its 125 anathemas, the following one:

    Quote
    If anyone says that there are no souls in Paradise who, since the Law of Baptism became binding upon all, lack the sacramental character of Baptism, let him be anathema.


    Instead, the Roman Catechism declared the following:

    Quote
    Baptism Made Obligatory After Christ's Resurrection

    The second period to be distinguished, that is, the time when the law of Baptism was made, also admits of no doubt. Holy writers are unanimous in saying that after the Resurrection of our Lord, when He gave to His Apostles the command to go and teach all nations: baptising them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, the law of Baptism became obligatory on all who were to be saved.


    The only "exception" which the Roman Catechism gives is as follows:

    Quote
    Ordinarily They Are Not Baptised At Once

    On adults, however, the Church has not been accustomed to confer the Sacrament of Baptism at once, but has ordained that it be deferred for a certain time. The delay is not attended with the same danger as in the case of infants, which we have already mentioned; should any unforeseen accident make it impossible for adults to be washed in the salutary waters, their intention and determination to receive Baptism and their repentance for past sins, will avail them to grace and righteousness.


    However, the Roman Catechism also states,

    Quote
    "Almighty"

    The Sacred Scriptures, in order to mark the piety and devotion with which the most holy name of God is to be adored, usually express His supreme power and infinite majesty in a variety of ways; but the pastor should, first of all, teach that almighty power is most frequently attributed to Him. Thus He says of Himself: I am the almighty Lord and again, Jacob when sending his sons to Joseph thus prayed for them: May my almighty God make him favourable to you. In the Apocalypse also it is written: The Lord God, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the almighty; and in another place the last day is called the great day of the almighty God. Sometimes the same attribute is expressed in many words; thus: No word shall be impossible with God; Is the hand of the Lord unable? Thy power is at hand when thou wiIt, and so on.

    But though God can do all things, yet He cannot lie, or deceive, or be deceived; He cannot sin, or cease to exist, or be ignorant of anything. These defects are compatible with those beings only whose actions are imperfect; but God, whose acts are always most perfect, is said to be incapable of such things, simply because the capability of doing them implies weakness, not the supreme and infinite power over all things which God possesses. Thus we so believe God to be omnipotent that we exclude from Him entirely all that is not intimately connected and consistent with the perfection of His nature.

    Why Omnipotence Alone Is Mentioned In The: Creed

    The pastor should point out the propriety and wisdom of having omitted all other names of God in the Creed, and of having proposed to us only that of almighty as the object of our belief. For by acknowledging God to be omnipotent, we also of necessity acknowledge Him to be omniscient, and to hold all things in subjection to His supreme authority and dominion. When we do not doubt that He is omnipotent, we must be also convinced of everything else regarding Him, the absence of which would render His omnipotence altogether unintelligible.

    God Preserves, Rules And Moves All Created Things

    We are not, however, to understand that God is in such wise the Creator and Maker of all things that His works, when once created and finished, could thereafter continue to exist unsupported by His omnipotence. For as all things derive existence from the Creator's supreme power, wisdom, and goodness, so unless preserved continually by His Providence, and by the same power which produced them, they would instantly return into their nothingness. This the Scriptures declare when they say: How could anything endure if thou wouldst not? or be preserved, if not called by thee?


    Therefore, if there are individuals in Paradise who died without Baptism, it was only because the One and Triune God allowed them to end this life without that Sacrament.


    Please clarify this post, and I will respond.

    Offline Jehanne

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #39 on: September 25, 2013, 09:12:33 PM »
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  • What is there to clarify, as the Roman Catechism states, "The very hairs of your head are all numbered."  And,

    Quote
    God's Care For Us Is Seen In The Appointment Of Guardian Angels

    But in order to comprehend more clearly the fatherly care of God for men, it will be well in the explanation of this particular point to say something regarding the guardian Angels under whose protection men are placed. By God's providence Angels have been entrusted with the office of guarding the human race and of accompanying every human being so as to preserve him from any serious dangers. Just as parents, whose children are about to travel a dangerous and infested road, appoint guardians and helpers for them, so also in the journey we are making towards our heavenly country our heavenly Father has placed over each of us an Angel under whose protection and vigilance we may be enabled to escape the snares secretly prepared by our enemy, repel the dreadful attacks he makes on us, and under his guiding hand keep the right road, and thus be secure against all false steps which the wiles of the evil one might cause us to make in order to draw us aside from the path that leads to heaven.


    In the eyes of the Roman Catechism, does "Baptism of Desire" really matter:

    Quote
    That The Church May Be Recognised By All

    But what we most particularly ask in this Petition is that all may acknowledge and revere the spouse of Jesus Christ, our most holy mother the Church, in which alone is to be found the copious and inexhaustible fountain that cleanses and effaces all the stains of sin, and from which are drawn all the Sacraments of salvation and sanctification, those Sacraments through which, like so many sacred channels, is diffused over us by the hand of God the dew, of sanctity. To that Church alone and to those whom she embraces in her bosom and holds in her arms, appertains the invocation of that divine name, outside of which there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved.


    The Roman Catechism never applied Baptism of Desire and/or Blood to infidels or Jews.  Indeed, the Catechism states,

    Quote
    That Unbelievers May Be Converted

    Thus, then, as the heavenly spirits with perfect unanimity exalt and glorify God, so do we pray that the same be done over all the earth; that all nations may come to know, worship, and reverence God; that all without a single exception may embrace the Christian religion, may devote themselves wholly to the service of God, and may be convinced that in Him is the source of all sanctity and that there is nothing pure, nothing holy, that does not proceed from the sanctity of His divine name. According to the testimony of the Apostle, The church is cleansed by the laver of water in the word of life. and the word of life signifies the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost in which we are baptised and sanctified. And since there is no expiation, no purity, no integrity, in him over whom the divine name has not been invoked, we desire and pray that all mankind may abandon the darkness of their impious infidelity, and, enlightened by the rays of divine light, may come to recognise the power of this name and look to it alone for true sanctity, and that thus receiving the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, they may receive the plenitude of sanctity from the right hand of God Himself.


    "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it and would only avail such individuals to sanctifying grace if it was impossible for that person to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.  And, of course, as the Roman Catechism states, with the Triune God, "nothing is impossible."

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #40 on: September 25, 2013, 10:28:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    What is there to clarify, as the Roman Catechism states, "The very hairs of your head are all numbered."  And,

    Quote
    God's Care For Us Is Seen In The Appointment Of Guardian Angels

    But in order to comprehend more clearly the fatherly care of God for men, it will be well in the explanation of this particular point to say something regarding the guardian Angels under whose protection men are placed. By God's providence Angels have been entrusted with the office of guarding the human race and of accompanying every human being so as to preserve him from any serious dangers. Just as parents, whose children are about to travel a dangerous and infested road, appoint guardians and helpers for them, so also in the journey we are making towards our heavenly country our heavenly Father has placed over each of us an Angel under whose protection and vigilance we may be enabled to escape the snares secretly prepared by our enemy, repel the dreadful attacks he makes on us, and under his guiding hand keep the right road, and thus be secure against all false steps which the wiles of the evil one might cause us to make in order to draw us aside from the path that leads to heaven.


    In the eyes of the Roman Catechism, does "Baptism of Desire" really matter:

    Quote
    That The Church May Be Recognised By All

    But what we most particularly ask in this Petition is that all may acknowledge and revere the spouse of Jesus Christ, our most holy mother the Church, in which alone is to be found the copious and inexhaustible fountain that cleanses and effaces all the stains of sin, and from which are drawn all the Sacraments of salvation and sanctification, those Sacraments through which, like so many sacred channels, is diffused over us by the hand of God the dew, of sanctity. To that Church alone and to those whom she embraces in her bosom and holds in her arms, appertains the invocation of that divine name, outside of which there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved.


    The Roman Catechism never applied Baptism of Desire and/or Blood to infidels or Jews.  Indeed, the Catechism states,

    Quote
    That Unbelievers May Be Converted

    Thus, then, as the heavenly spirits with perfect unanimity exalt and glorify God, so do we pray that the same be done over all the earth; that all nations may come to know, worship, and reverence God; that all without a single exception may embrace the Christian religion, may devote themselves wholly to the service of God, and may be convinced that in Him is the source of all sanctity and that there is nothing pure, nothing holy, that does not proceed from the sanctity of His divine name. According to the testimony of the Apostle, The church is cleansed by the laver of water in the word of life. and the word of life signifies the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost in which we are baptised and sanctified. And since there is no expiation, no purity, no integrity, in him over whom the divine name has not been invoked, we desire and pray that all mankind may abandon the darkness of their impious infidelity, and, enlightened by the rays of divine light, may come to recognise the power of this name and look to it alone for true sanctity, and that thus receiving the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, they may receive the plenitude of sanctity from the right hand of God Himself.


    "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it and would only avail such individuals to sanctifying grace if it was impossible for that person to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.  And, of course, as the Roman Catechism states, with the Triune God, "nothing is impossible."


    Of course "with God nothing is impossible." The fact that He can do anything does not mean He removes free will from human beings in the process. He allows accidents and murders etc. to happen. You are in grave error. Did not those who formulated and approved the Roman Catechism know that all things were possible with God? Yet they still declared that for some who desired baptism, it would be impossible for them to receive it. As far as your statement that, "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it" you are again in error. For popes, doctors and Catechisms have all taught implicit desire for baptism without censure or condemnation...

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of  the Church (13th century): Summa Theologica
    Whether grace and virtues are bestowed on man by Baptism?


    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."


     St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de presbytero non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" (Note: Unbelievers can see the original book in Latin here. Turn to page 310 in the book (or page 157 of the PDF file).

     
    On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."
     

    Pope Pius IX (19th century): Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

    Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."
     

    Baltimore Catechism (19th and 20th centuries): Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those whoshare in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

    [Note: The Baltimore Catechism was issued by the Third Council of Baltimore in 1884, and was approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States, where it remained the standard for nearly a century. Even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after being published, the content on the threefold baptism has remained in the catechism to this day.]
     

    St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century): Catechism of Christian Doctrine (Catechism of St. Pius X):

    The Creed, Ninth Article, The Church in Particular: 29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

    Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
     


    Offline Jehanne

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #41 on: September 26, 2013, 06:41:32 AM »
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  • You act like I consider BoD/BoB to be heretical and/or false, which is not the case.  Neither is such the position of the Saint Benedict Centers.  Unless one is a sede, it is for the Magisterium to decide what is and is not acceptable theological opinion.  At the Council of Trent, some Fathers and periti were Thomists, Scotists, Augustinians, and Jesuits.  You act like every scholastic theologian who ever lived was in complete agreement on every point of theology.  Consider the case of Peter Abelard:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Abelard#Philosophical_thought

    Quote
    Pope Innocent III accepted Abélard's doctrine of Limbo, which amended Augustine of Hippo's doctrine of Original Sin. The Vatican accepted the view that unbaptized babies did not, as at first believed, go straight to Hell but to a special area of Limbo ("limbus infantium"). They would therefore feel no pain and remain in a state of natural bliss. Supernatural bliss, however, is not available to unbaptized children because they cannot experience beatific vision.[18]


    Abelard, a theologian, rebelled against almost 600 years of undisputed teaching in the West that infants who die without Baptism go to the Hell of Suffering, and yet, few on this board are going to appeal to that historical fact as to why the Limbo of the Children must be false.

    Ditto for Father Feeney.  Pope Pius XII simply did not condemn the Bread of Life and neither did the Holy Office.  The 1949 Holy Office Letter issued no condemnations, no excommunications, and no censures of any kind; it was simply a letter from one bishop to another which was signed by the secretary of the former bishop, who was another bishop.  It was not one giant ex cathedra statement, and it does not even talk about sacramental Baptism and if there are individuals in Paradise who lack such.

    So, once again, unless you can point to a de fide statement which says that the faithful must believe that there are individuals in Paradise, since the Law of Baptism became obligatory on all human beings, who lack the character of that Sacrament, then any "condemnations" which you assert against "Feeneyism" are simply private judgments and opinions.

    Offline bowler

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #42 on: September 26, 2013, 07:58:53 AM »
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  • Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Jehanne
    What is there to clarify, as the Roman Catechism states, "The very hairs of your head are all numbered."  And,

    Quote
    God's Care For Us Is Seen In The Appointment Of Guardian Angels

    But in order to comprehend more clearly the fatherly care of God for men, it will be well in the explanation of this particular point to say something regarding the guardian Angels under whose protection men are placed. By God's providence Angels have been entrusted with the office of guarding the human race and of accompanying every human being so as to preserve him from any serious dangers. Just as parents, whose children are about to travel a dangerous and infested road, appoint guardians and helpers for them, so also in the journey we are making towards our heavenly country our heavenly Father has placed over each of us an Angel under whose protection and vigilance we may be enabled to escape the snares secretly prepared by our enemy, repel the dreadful attacks he makes on us, and under his guiding hand keep the right road, and thus be secure against all false steps which the wiles of the evil one might cause us to make in order to draw us aside from the path that leads to heaven.


    In the eyes of the Roman Catechism, does "Baptism of Desire" really matter:

    Quote
    That The Church May Be Recognised By All

    But what we most particularly ask in this Petition is that all may acknowledge and revere the spouse of Jesus Christ, our most holy mother the Church, in which alone is to be found the copious and inexhaustible fountain that cleanses and effaces all the stains of sin, and from which are drawn all the Sacraments of salvation and sanctification, those Sacraments through which, like so many sacred channels, is diffused over us by the hand of God the dew, of sanctity. To that Church alone and to those whom she embraces in her bosom and holds in her arms, appertains the invocation of that divine name, outside of which there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved.


    The Roman Catechism never applied Baptism of Desire and/or Blood to infidels or Jews.  Indeed, the Catechism states,

    Quote
    That Unbelievers May Be Converted

    Thus, then, as the heavenly spirits with perfect unanimity exalt and glorify God, so do we pray that the same be done over all the earth; that all nations may come to know, worship, and reverence God; that all without a single exception may embrace the Christian religion, may devote themselves wholly to the service of God, and may be convinced that in Him is the source of all sanctity and that there is nothing pure, nothing holy, that does not proceed from the sanctity of His divine name. According to the testimony of the Apostle, The church is cleansed by the laver of water in the word of life. and the word of life signifies the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost in which we are baptised and sanctified. And since there is no expiation, no purity, no integrity, in him over whom the divine name has not been invoked, we desire and pray that all mankind may abandon the darkness of their impious infidelity, and, enlightened by the rays of divine light, may come to recognise the power of this name and look to it alone for true sanctity, and that thus receiving the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, they may receive the plenitude of sanctity from the right hand of God Himself.


    "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it and would only avail such individuals to sanctifying grace if it was impossible for that person to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.  And, of course, as the Roman Catechism states, with the Triune God, "nothing is impossible."


    Of course "with God nothing is impossible." The fact that He can do anything does not mean He removes free will from human beings in the process. He allows accidents and murders etc. to happen. You are in grave error. Did not those who formulated and approved the Roman Catechism know that all things were possible with God? Yet they still declared that for some who desired baptism, it would be impossible for them to receive it. As far as your statement that, "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it" you are again in error. For popes, doctors and Catechisms have all taught implicit desire for baptism without censure or condemnation...

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of  the Church (13th century): Summa Theologica
    Whether grace and virtues are bestowed on man by Baptism?


    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."


     St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de ####o non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" (Note: Unbelievers can see the original book in Latin here. Turn to page 310 in the book (or page 157 of the PDF file).

     
    On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."
     

    Pope Pius IX (19th century): Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

    Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."
     

    Baltimore Catechism (19th and 20th centuries): Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those whoshare in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

    [Note: The Baltimore Catechism was issued by the Third Council of Baltimore in 1884, and was approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States, where it remained the standard for nearly a century. Even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after being published, the content on the threefold baptism has remained in the catechism to this day.]
     

    St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century): Catechism of Christian Doctrine (Catechism of St. Pius X):

    The Creed, Ninth Article, The Church in Particular: 29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

    Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
     


    You do not understand St. Thomas nor St. Alphonsus Ligouri's use of the word "implicit" if you think that an unbaptized person can be saved who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation. The belief that that an unbaptized person can be saved who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation is not supported by any Father, Doctor, Saint, and is opposed to the Athanasian Creed. If you notice your sources, you misinterpret St. Thomas who wrote in the 1200's, then you jump to practically the 20th century.

    And here is the Baltimore catechism teaching manual:

    The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics orginally published in 1891
    by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead
    from Lesson 11: On the Church
    * 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

    A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

    Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

    In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

    Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?

    If he was  validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

    If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

    I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

    I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

    I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.

    from Lesson 14: On Baptism
    154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

    Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven. God might have created us for a purely natural and material end, so that we would live forever upon the earth and be naturally happy with the good things God would give us. But then we would never have known of Heaven or God as we do now. Such happiness on earth would be nothing compared to the delights of Heaven and the presence of God; so that, now, since God has given us, through His holy revelations, a knowledge of Himself and Heaven, we would be miserable if left always upon the earth. Those, then, who die without Baptism do not know what they have lost, and are naturally happy; but we who know all they have lost for want of Baptism know how very unfortunate they are.

    Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family—father, mother, and children—may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity—just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.

    157. Q. How many kinds of Baptism are there?

    A. There are three kinds of Baptism: Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

    158. Q. What is Baptism of water?

    A. Baptism of water is that which is given by pouring water on the head of the person to be baptized, and saying at the same time, “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

    159. Q. What is Baptism of desire?

    A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

    “Ardent wish” by one who has no opportunity of being baptized—for no one can baptize himself. He must be sorry for his sins and have the desire of receiving the Baptism of water as soon as he can; just as a person in mortal sin and without a priest to absolve him may, when in danger of death, save his soul from Hell by an act of perfect contrition and the firm resolution of going to confession as soon as possible....

    160. Q. What is Baptism of blood?

    A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.

    Baptism of blood, called martyrdom, is received by those who were not baptized with water, but were put to death for their Catholic faith. This takes place even nowadays in pagan countries where the missionaries are trying to convert the poor natives. These pagans have to be instructed before they are baptized. They do everything required of them, let us suppose, and are waiting for the day of Baptism. Those who are being thus instructed are called Catechumens. Someday, while they are attending their instructions, the enemies of religion rush down upon them and put them to death. They do not resist, but willingly suffer death for the sake of the true religion. They are martyrs then and are baptized in their own blood; although, as we said above, blood would not do for an ordinary Baptism even when we could not get water; so that if a person drew blood from his own body and asked to be baptized with it, the Baptism would not be valid. Neither would they be martyrs if put to death not for religion or virtue but for some other reason—say political.

    161. Q. Is Baptism of desire or blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?

    A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Go to my thread on BOD Simply Explained for my point above "simply explained".



    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #43 on: September 26, 2013, 08:43:03 AM »
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  • Quote from: bowler
    Quote from: Ad Jesum per Mariam
    Quote from: Jehanne
    What is there to clarify, as the Roman Catechism states, "The very hairs of your head are all numbered."  And,

    Quote
    God's Care For Us Is Seen In The Appointment Of Guardian Angels

    But in order to comprehend more clearly the fatherly care of God for men, it will be well in the explanation of this particular point to say something regarding the guardian Angels under whose protection men are placed. By God's providence Angels have been entrusted with the office of guarding the human race and of accompanying every human being so as to preserve him from any serious dangers. Just as parents, whose children are about to travel a dangerous and infested road, appoint guardians and helpers for them, so also in the journey we are making towards our heavenly country our heavenly Father has placed over each of us an Angel under whose protection and vigilance we may be enabled to escape the snares secretly prepared by our enemy, repel the dreadful attacks he makes on us, and under his guiding hand keep the right road, and thus be secure against all false steps which the wiles of the evil one might cause us to make in order to draw us aside from the path that leads to heaven.


    In the eyes of the Roman Catechism, does "Baptism of Desire" really matter:

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    That The Church May Be Recognised By All

    But what we most particularly ask in this Petition is that all may acknowledge and revere the spouse of Jesus Christ, our most holy mother the Church, in which alone is to be found the copious and inexhaustible fountain that cleanses and effaces all the stains of sin, and from which are drawn all the Sacraments of salvation and sanctification, those Sacraments through which, like so many sacred channels, is diffused over us by the hand of God the dew, of sanctity. To that Church alone and to those whom she embraces in her bosom and holds in her arms, appertains the invocation of that divine name, outside of which there is no other name under heaven given to men whereby we must be saved.


    The Roman Catechism never applied Baptism of Desire and/or Blood to infidels or Jews.  Indeed, the Catechism states,

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    That Unbelievers May Be Converted

    Thus, then, as the heavenly spirits with perfect unanimity exalt and glorify God, so do we pray that the same be done over all the earth; that all nations may come to know, worship, and reverence God; that all without a single exception may embrace the Christian religion, may devote themselves wholly to the service of God, and may be convinced that in Him is the source of all sanctity and that there is nothing pure, nothing holy, that does not proceed from the sanctity of His divine name. According to the testimony of the Apostle, The church is cleansed by the laver of water in the word of life. and the word of life signifies the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost in which we are baptised and sanctified. And since there is no expiation, no purity, no integrity, in him over whom the divine name has not been invoked, we desire and pray that all mankind may abandon the darkness of their impious infidelity, and, enlightened by the rays of divine light, may come to recognise the power of this name and look to it alone for true sanctity, and that thus receiving the Sacrament of Baptism in the name of the holy and undivided Trinity, they may receive the plenitude of sanctity from the right hand of God Himself.


    "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it and would only avail such individuals to sanctifying grace if it was impossible for that person to receive the Sacrament of Baptism.  And, of course, as the Roman Catechism states, with the Triune God, "nothing is impossible."


    Of course "with God nothing is impossible." The fact that He can do anything does not mean He removes free will from human beings in the process. He allows accidents and murders etc. to happen. You are in grave error. Did not those who formulated and approved the Roman Catechism know that all things were possible with God? Yet they still declared that for some who desired baptism, it would be impossible for them to receive it. As far as your statement that, "Baptism of Desire" was only ever applied to those who had the "intention and determination" of receiving it" you are again in error. For popes, doctors and Catechisms have all taught implicit desire for baptism without censure or condemnation...

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of  the Church (13th century): Summa Theologica
    Whether grace and virtues are bestowed on man by Baptism?


    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (1, ad 2; 68, 2) man receives the forgiveness of sins before Baptism in so far as he has Baptism of desire, explicitly or implicitly; and yet when he actually receives Baptism, he receives a fuller remission, as to the remission of the entire punishment. So also before Baptism Cornelius and others like him receive grace and virtues through their faith in Christ and their desire for Baptism, implicit or explicit: but afterwards when baptized, they receive a yet greater fulness of grace and virtues. Hence in Ps. 22:2, "He hath brought me up on the water of refreshment," a gloss says: "He has brought us up by an increase of virtue and good deeds in Baptism."


     St. Alphonsus Liguori, Doctor of the Church (18th century): Moral Theology, Book 6, Section II (About Baptism and Confirmation), Chapter 1 (On Baptism), page 310, no. 96: "Baptism of desire is perfect conversion to God by contrition or love of God above all things accompanied by an explicit or implicit desire for true baptism of water, the place of which it takes as to the remission of guilt, but not as to the impression of the [baptismal] character or as to the removal of all debt of punishment. It is called "of wind" ["flaminis"] because it takes place by the impulse of the Holy Ghost who is called a wind ["flamen"]. Now it is "de fide" that men are also saved by Baptism of desire, by virtue of the Canon Apostolicam, "de ####o non baptizato" and of the Council of Trent, session 6, Chapter 4 where it is said that no one can be saved 'without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it.'" (Note: Unbelievers can see the original book in Latin here. Turn to page 310 in the book (or page 157 of the PDF file).

     
    On the Council of Trent, 1846, Pg. 128-129 (Duffy): "Who can deny that the act of perfect love of God, which is sufficient for justification, includes an implicit desire of Baptism, of Penance, and of the Eucharist. He who wishes the whole wishes the every part of that whole and all the means necessary for its attainment. In order to be justified without baptism, an infidel must love God above all things, and must have an universal will to observe all the divine precepts, among which the first is to receive baptism: and therefore in order to be justified it is necessary for him to have at least an implicit desire of that sacrament."
     

    Pope Pius IX (19th century): Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

    Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."
     

    Baltimore Catechism (19th and 20th centuries): Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those whoshare in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

    [Note: The Baltimore Catechism was issued by the Third Council of Baltimore in 1884, and was approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States, where it remained the standard for nearly a century. Even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after being published, the content on the threefold baptism has remained in the catechism to this day.]
     

    St. Pope Pius X (early 20th century): Catechism of Christian Doctrine (Catechism of St. Pius X):

    The Creed, Ninth Article, The Church in Particular: 29 Q. But if a man through no fault of his own is outside the Church, can he be saved? A. If he is outside the Church through no fault of his, that is, if he is in good faith, and if he has received Baptism, or at least has the implicit desire of Baptism; and if, moreover, he sincerely seeks the truth and does God's will as best he can such a man is indeed separated from the body of the Church, but is united to the soul of the Church and consequently is on the way of salvation

    Baptism, Necessity of Baptism and Obligations of the Baptized: 17 Q. Can the absence of Baptism be supplied in any other way? A. The absence of Baptism can be supplied by martyrdom, which is called Baptism of Blood, or by an act of perfect love of God, or of contrition, along with the desire, at least implicit, of Baptism, and this is called Baptism of Desire.
     


    You do not understand St. Thomas nor St. Alphonsus Ligouri's use of the word "implicit" if you think that an unbaptized person can be saved who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation. The belief that that an unbaptized person can be saved who has no explicit desire to be a Catholic, nor belief in the Trinity and the Incarnation is not supported by any Father, Doctor, Saint, and is opposed to the Athanasian Creed. If you notice your sources, you misinterpret St. Thomas who wrote in the 1200's, then you jump to practically the 20th century.

    And here is the Baltimore catechism teaching manual:

    The Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism Concerning the Salvation of Non-Catholics orginally published in 1891
    by Rev. Thomas L. Kinkead
    from Lesson 11: On the Church
    * 121. Q. Are all bound to belong to the Church?

    A. All are bound to belong to the Church, and he who knows the Church to be the true Church and remains out of it, cannot be saved.

    Anyone who knows the Catholic religion to be the true religion and will not embrace it cannot enter into Heaven. If one not a Catholic doubts whether the church to which he belongs is the true Church, he must settle his doubt, seek the true Church, and enter it; for if he continues to live in doubt, he becomes like the one who knows the true Church and is deterred by worldly considerations from entering it.

    In like manner one who, doubting, fears to examine the religion he professes lest he should discover its falsity and be convinced of the truth of the Catholic faith, cannot be saved.

    Suppose, however, that there is a non-Catholic who firmly believes that the church to which he belongs is the true Church, and who has never—even in the past—had the slightest doubt of that fact—what will become of him?

    If he was  validly baptized and never committed a mortal sin, he will be saved; because, believing himself a member of the true Church, he was doing all he could to serve God according to his knowledge and the dictates of his conscience. But if ever he committed a mortal sin, his salvation would be very much more difficult. A mortal sin once committed remains on the soul till it is forgiven. Now, how could his mortal sin be forgiven? Not in the Sacrament of Penance, for the Protestant does not go to confession; and if he does, his minister—not being a true priest—has no power to forgive sins. Does he know that without confession it requires an act of perfect contrition to blot out mortal sin, and can he easily make such an act? What we call contrition is often only imperfect contrition—that is, sorrow for our sins because we fear their punishment in Hell or dread the loss of Heaven. If a Catholic—with all the instruction he has received about how to make an act of perfect contrition and all the practice he has had in making such acts—might find it difficult to make an act of perfect contrition after having committed a mortal sin, how much difficulty will not a Protestant have in making an act of perfect contrition, who does not know about this requirement and who has not been taught to make continued acts of perfect contrition all his life. It is to be feared either he would not know of this necessary means of regaining God’s friendship, or he would be unable to elicit the necessary act of perfect contrition, and thus the mortal sin would remain upon his soul and he would die an enemy of God.

    If, then, we found a Protestant who never committed a mortal sin after Baptism, and who never had the slightest doubt about the truth of his religion, that person would be saved; because, being baptized, he is a member of the Church, and being free from mortal sin he is a friend of God and could not in justice be condemned to Hell. Such a person would attend Mass and receive the Sacraments if he knew the Catholic Church to be the only true Church.

    I am giving you an example, however, that is rarely found, except in the case of infants or very small children baptized in Protestant sects. All infants rightly baptized by anyone are really children of the Church, no matter what religion their parents may profess. Indeed, all persons who are baptized are children of the Church; but those among them who deny its teaching, reject its Sacraments, and refuse to submit to its lawful pastors, are rebellious children known as heretics.

    I said I gave you an example that can scarcely be found, namely, of a person not a Catholic, who really never doubted the truth of his religion, and who, moreover, never committed during his whole life a mortal sin. There are so few such persons that we can practically say for all those who are not visibly members of the Catholic Church, believing its doctrines, receiving its Sacraments, and being governed by its visible head, our Holy Father, the Pope, salvation is an extremely difficult matter.

    I do not speak here of pagans who have never heard of Our Lord or His holy religion, but of those outside the Church who claim to be good Christians without being members of the Catholic Church.

    from Lesson 14: On Baptism
    154. Q. Is Baptism necessary to salvation?

    A. Baptism is necessary to salvation, because without it we cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven.

    Those who through no fault of theirs die without Baptism, though they have never committed sin, cannot enter Heaven neither will they go to Hell. After the Last Judgment there will be no Purgatory. Where, then, will they go? God in His goodness will provide a place of rest for them, where they will not suffer and will be in a state of natural peace; but they will never see God or Heaven. God might have created us for a purely natural and material end, so that we would live forever upon the earth and be naturally happy with the good things God would give us. But then we would never have known of Heaven or God as we do now. Such happiness on earth would be nothing compared to the delights of Heaven and the presence of God; so that, now, since God has given us, through His holy revelations, a knowledge of Himself and Heaven, we would be miserable if left always upon the earth. Those, then, who die without Baptism do not know what they have lost, and are naturally happy; but we who know all they have lost for want of Baptism know how very unfortunate they are.

    Think, then, what a terrible crime it is to willfully allow anyone to die without Baptism, or to deprive a little child of life before it can be baptized! Suppose all the members of a family but one little infant have been baptized; when the Day of Judgment comes, while all the other members of a family—father, mother, and children—may go into Heaven, that little one will have to remain out; that little brother or sister will be separated from its family forever, and never, never see God or Heaven. How heartless and cruel, then, must a person be who would deprive that little infant of happiness for all eternity—just that its mother or someone else might have a little less trouble or suffering here upon earth.

    157. Q. How many kinds of Baptism are there?

    A. There are three kinds of Baptism: Baptism of water, of desire, and of blood.

    158. Q. What is Baptism of water?

    A. Baptism of water is that which is given by pouring water on the head of the person to be baptized, and saying at the same time, “I baptize thee in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”

    159. Q. What is Baptism of desire?

    A. Baptism of desire is an ardent wish to receive Baptism, and to do all that God has ordained for our salvation.

    “Ardent wish” by one who has no opportunity of being baptized—for no one can baptize himself. He must be sorry for his sins and have the desire of receiving the Baptism of water as soon as he can; just as a person in mortal sin and without a priest to absolve him may, when in danger of death, save his soul from Hell by an act of perfect contrition and the firm resolution of going to confession as soon as possible....

    160. Q. What is Baptism of blood?

    A. Baptism of blood is the shedding of one’s blood for the faith of Christ.

    Baptism of blood, called martyrdom, is received by those who were not baptized with water, but were put to death for their Catholic faith. This takes place even nowadays in pagan countries where the missionaries are trying to convert the poor natives. These pagans have to be instructed before they are baptized. They do everything required of them, let us suppose, and are waiting for the day of Baptism. Those who are being thus instructed are called Catechumens. Someday, while they are attending their instructions, the enemies of religion rush down upon them and put them to death. They do not resist, but willingly suffer death for the sake of the true religion. They are martyrs then and are baptized in their own blood; although, as we said above, blood would not do for an ordinary Baptism even when we could not get water; so that if a person drew blood from his own body and asked to be baptized with it, the Baptism would not be valid. Neither would they be martyrs if put to death not for religion or virtue but for some other reason—say political.

    161. Q. Is Baptism of desire or blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?

    A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.

    Go to my thread on BOD Simply Explained for my point above "simply explained".




    161. Q. Is Baptism of desire or blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water?

    A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water.


    Are the effects of baptism of water eternal separation from God in some limbo for adults? No.

    Also, does a child below the age of reason, or the mentally handicapped or brain damaged have to believe in the Trinity and the Incarnation? No. Therefore it is a necessity of means and not an absolute necessity. If one through no fault of his own is invincibly ignorant of the true faith he is not guilty in this matter in the eyes of God (Pope Pius IX-Singulari Quadam).

    [39] And Jesus said: For judgment I am come into this world; that they who see not, may see; and they who see, may become blind. [40] And some of the Pharisees, who were with him, heard: and they said unto him: Are we also blind? [41] Jesus said to them: If you were blind, you should not have sin: but now you say: We see. Your sin remaineth. John 9:39-41

     
     
     

    Offline Ad Jesum per Mariam

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    If Feeneyites are heretics, why does the SSPX give them the Holy Eucharist?
    « Reply #44 on: September 26, 2013, 09:13:08 AM »
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  • Quote from: Jehanne
    You act like I consider BoD/BoB to be heretical and/or false, which is not the case.  Neither is such the position of the Saint Benedict Centers.  Unless one is a sede, it is for the Magisterium to decide what is and is not acceptable theological opinion.  At the Council of Trent, some Fathers and periti were Thomists, Scotists, Augustinians, and Jesuits.  You act like every scholastic theologian who ever lived was in complete agreement on every point of theology.  Consider the case of Peter Abelard:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Abelard#Philosophical_thought

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    Pope Innocent III accepted Abélard's doctrine of Limbo, which amended Augustine of Hippo's doctrine of Original Sin. The Vatican accepted the view that unbaptized babies did not, as at first believed, go straight to Hell but to a special area of Limbo ("limbus infantium"). They would therefore feel no pain and remain in a state of natural bliss. Supernatural bliss, however, is not available to unbaptized children because they cannot experience beatific vision.[18]


    Abelard, a theologian, rebelled against almost 600 years of undisputed teaching in the West that infants who die without Baptism go to the Hell of Suffering, and yet, few on this board are going to appeal to that historical fact as to why the Limbo of the Children must be false.

    Ditto for Father Feeney.  Pope Pius XII simply did not condemn the Bread of Life and neither did the Holy Office.  The 1949 Holy Office Letter issued no condemnations, no excommunications, and no censures of any kind; it was simply a letter from one bishop to another which was signed by the secretary of the former bishop, who was another bishop.  It was not one giant ex cathedra statement, and it does not even talk about sacramental Baptism and if there are individuals in Paradise who lack such.

    So, once again, unless you can point to a de fide statement which says that the faithful must believe that there are individuals in Paradise, since the Law of Baptism became obligatory on all human beings, who lack the character of that Sacrament, then any "condemnations" which you assert against "Feeneyism" are simply private judgments and opinions.



    Decree

    The Priest Leonard Feeney is Declared Excommunicated

          Since the priest Leonard Feeney, a resident of Boston (Saint Benedict Center), who for a long time has been suspended a divinis for grave disobedience toward church authority, has not, despite repeated warnings and threats of incurring excommunication ipso facto, come to his senses, the Most Eminent and Reverend Fathers, charged with safeguarding matters of faith and morals, have, in a Plenary Session held on Wednesday 4 February 1953, declared him excommunicated with all the effects of the law.

          On Thursday, 12 February 1953, our Most Holy Lord Pius XII, by Divine Providence Pope, approved and confirmed the decree of the Most Eminent Fathers, and ordered that it be made a matter of public law.

          Given at Rome, at the headquarters of the Holy Office, 13 February 1953.

                                                                      Marius Crovini, Notary


    As far as your statement regarding "individuals in Paradise", a de fide statement regarding whether or not a soul is in Heaven without water baptism is irrelevant. What matters is what the Church has taught for nearly 2000 years, and what the Church taught de fide at the Council of Trent. Nevertheless we know there are souls in Heaven without water baptism from the traditions of the Church (which we must hold). These are the souls of the martyrs who were baptized in their own blood.