Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Stubborn

I am saying the same thing Trent says - that justification is possible before baptism.

Here I disagree.  Trent does not teach this.

Ok, from the other thread - or use a different translation is ok too, I don't particularly care for this translation, but it's good enough I think......

Quote

"To the effect that justification from original sin is not possible without the washing unto regeneration, or the desire for the same." I'll read that again; "justification from original sin is not possible without the washing unto regeneration, or the desire for the same."

Explain.

I am interested to be corrected here Lad, so please explain where you disagree. For me, I will elaborate a bit more.
 
Above is Trent's quote that Fr. Wathen used, his quoted passage from 1985 is obviously off a docuмent of some sort since it was before computers. Below are quotes from Trent which basically say the same thing but are ones that I like to use.

Quote from: Trent on Justification

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated, as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Savior. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

And also.......

Quote from: Canon IV

If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary unto salvation, but superfluous;.....[let him be anathema.]

It is in the first part of this canon that Trent is decreeing on salvation, not justification.

It is here that Trent decrees the necessity of us receiving the sacraments for our hope of salvation - again, this first part of this canon decrees on salvation, not on justification. So it is right here, in the routinely ignored first part of this canon, where we find that Trent decrees the dogma that the sacraments are necessary for salvation.
 
Because no one can receive any other sacrament unless they first are baptized, the first sacrament necessary unto salvation is the sacrament of baptism -"as it is written", per Our Lords words in John 3:5.

As Fr. Wathen states in his sermon: "This is a dogma of faith, and this dogma which has been defined many times in the history of the Church, namely that, sacramental baptism is necessary with the necessity of means for entrance into heaven is based upon Our Lords words, in the third chapter of St. John’s Gospel; “Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.”

Because he is echoing Trent, Fr. Wathen speaks correctly, *it is a dogma of faith* that sacramental baptism is necessary for our entrance into heaven.



Then canon IV continues on, but the subject matter is no longer about salvation, the subject matter is now about justification......  

Quote from: Canon IV

......and [if any one saith] that, without them, or without the desire thereof, men obtain of God, through faith alone, the grace of justification; though all (the sacraments) are not indeed necessary for every individual; let him be anathema.

Again quoting Fr. Wathen:

Quote

Most people are inclined to think that justification is the same as salvation. And you must understand that that is simply not true, it is not an accurate thought. Justification is but the first step in the way of redemption, (redemption = the action of saving or being saved from sin) whereas salvation is the very last step.

When one is justified, his sins are taken away, whether original or actual and he receives grace, but he does not thereby necessarily enter the Catholic Church.

Salvation refers to one's entrance into either purgatory or heaven after his judgement, after he has died and appeared before Christ the Judge.  So this passage from the decree, says that one can be justified through his desire for baptism, which is to say Original Sin can be taken away and his actual sins – but it does not say that he can be saved through this desire.

Quote from: Ladislaus

Quote from: Stubborn

I am saying the same thing Trent says - that justification is possible before baptism.

Here I disagree.  Trent does not teach this.

Ok, from the other thread - or use a different translation is ok too, I don't particularly care for this translation, but it's good enough I think......

Quote

"To the effect that justification from original sin is not possible without the washing unto regeneration, or the desire for the same." I'll read that again; "justification from original sin is not possible without the washing unto regeneration, or the desire for the same."

Explain.