Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on May 09, 2016, 09:00:29 AM
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I believe the Catholic Church Wins:
Thus the Fathers of the Fourth Lateran Council and all the other churchmen who have drawn up authoritative statements of the Church's teaching on the necessity of the Church for the attainment of eternal salvation were well aware of what St. Augustine had taught about men who suffered martyrdom for the sake of Christ before having had the opportunity to receive the sacrament of baptism. In his De civitate Dei, St. Augustine taught that "whosoever dies for Christ, not having received the laver of regeneration, has this avail him for the forgiveness of sins as much as if these sins had been forgiven in the sacred font of baptism." [De civitate Dei, XIII, 7. MPL, XLI, 381.] Since the forgiveness of mortal or original sin is accomplished only in the infusion of the life of sanctifying grace, the person whose sins are forgiven is in the state of grace. If such a person dies in the state of grace, he will inevitably attain to the Beatific Vision. He will be saved, as having died "within" and not "outside" the true Church. (The Catholic Church and Salvation, by Fenton)
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Ah, the sleeping giant awakens. Not a theological giant, a spamming giant.
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THE FOURTH OEcuмENICAL COUNCIL OF THE LATERAN
"There is, then, one universal Church of the faithful (una . . . fidelium universalis ecclesia), outside of which no one at all is saved (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur)." [Denz., 430.]
In the Firmiter, the first chapter of the doctrinal declarations of the Fourth Lateran Council, we find the following declaration: "There is, then, one universal Church of the faithful (una . . . fidelium universalis ecclesia), outside of which no one at all is saved (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur)." [Denz., 430.]
This formula bears a singular resemblance to one contained in the profession of faith prescribed by Pope Innocent III in 1208 for the Waldensians who wished to return to the Catholic Church: "We believe in our hearts and we profess orally that there is one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic [Church], outside of which we believe that no one will be saved." [Denz., 423.]
Each of these docuмents presents three distinct statements as truths actually revealed by God, and consequently as doctrines which men are obliged to accept with the assent of divine faith itself. By immediate and necessary implication, they condemn as heretical the teachings contradictory to these three dogmas of the Catholic faith. They assert that:
1. It is a divinely revealed truth that there is only one true ecclesia or Church of God.
2. It is divinely revealed truth that this one true ecclesia is the Roman Catholic Church, the social unit properly termed "the universal Church of the faithful."
3. No one at all, according to God's Own revelation, can be saved if, at the moment of his death, he is "outside" this society.
Thus, according to the infallibly true teaching of this section of the decrees of the Fourth Lateran Council, we may draw the following conclusions:
1. At the moment of death a man must be in some way "within" the Catholic Church (either as a member or as one who desires and prays to enter it) if he is to attain to eternal salvation.
2. There is absolutely no exception to this rule. Otherwise the statement that "no one at all (nullus omnino)" is saved outside of the one universal Church of the faithful would not be true. And that statement is true. It is an infallible dogmatic pronouncement of an Oecuмenical Council of the Catholic Church.
3. Any attempt to explain the Church's necessity for salvation by claiming that it is only the "ordinary" means, or by imagining that it is requisite only for those who are aware of its dignity and position, is completely false and unacceptable.
Monsignor Fenton
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THE FOURTH OEcuмENICAL COUNCIL OF THE LATERAN
"There is, then, one universal Church of the faithful (una . . . fidelium universalis ecclesia), outside of which no one at all is saved (extra quam nullus omnino salvatur)." [Denz., 430.]
Now repeat this to yourself about a hundred times a day and then come back.
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THE BULL UNAM SANCTAM
We are bound by the obligation of faith to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic, and apostolic Church, and we firmly believe and sincerely profess this [Church] outside of which there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins (extra quam nec salus est, nec remissio peccatorum). Thus, the spouse in the Canticle proclaims: "One is my dove: my perfect one is but one. She is the only one of her mother, the chosen of her that bore her." This signifies (repraesentat) the one Mystical Body, of which Christ is the Head, and God [is the Head] of Christ. In this [dove and perfect one] there is "one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Certainly there was one ark of Noe at the time of the deluge, and it prefigured the one Church. The ark, which was finished in one cubit, has one ruler and commander, namely Noe. We read that all things that subsisted on the earth and which were outside of the ark were destroyed. And we venerate this [Church] as the only one, since the Lord says in the Prophet: "Deliver, O God, my soul from the sword: my only one from the hand of the dog." The Lord prayed for the Soul - that is, for Himself the Head - and at the same time for the body. He called the only Church a body because of the unity of faith, the unity of the sacraments, and the unity of charity of the Church, the Spouse. This [Church] is the Lord's seamless robe which was not cut, but for which lots were cast. Therefore there is one body, one Head, of the only Church, not two heads like a monster; Christ and Peter, the Vicar of Christ, and Peter's successor, since the Lord said to Peter himself: "Feed My sheep." He says "My" [sheep] universally, and not "these" or "those" in particular, and thus it is understood that He entrusted all [His sheep] to Him. If, therefore, the Greeks or others say that they have not been entrusted to Peter and to his successors, they necessarily admit that they are not of the sheep of Christ, since the Lord says, in John, that there is one fold and one shepherd. [Denz., 468.]
1. The Church is necessary, not only for the attainment of salvation itself, but for the forgiveness of sins, which is inseparable from the granting of the supernatural life of sanctifying grace.
2. The Church is necessary for the attainment of salvation and of the life of grace precisely because it is the Body and the Spouse of Jesus Christ.
3. Attainment of salvation in the Church involves union with the Bishop of Rome.
4. The dogma of the Church's necessity for the attainment of eternal salvation cannot be explained accurately in terms of any "invisible Church."
Monsignor Fenton
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:facepalm:
Your spamming is absolutely puerile. You have been warned about this before. Either make an actual argument or get out of here. You're a pollution on this board. Not only are you a pertinacious heretic, but you're also an a**hole.
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THE DECREE FOR THE JACOBITES
It [the sacrosanct Roman Church, established by the voice of Our Lord and Saviour] firmly believes, professes, and teaches that none of those who do not exist within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but Jews, heretics, and schismatics, can become partakers of eternal life; but that they are going into the everlasting fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they become associated with it (nisi . . . eidem fuerint agregati) before they die. And [it firmly believes, professes, and teaches] that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such value that the Church's sacraments are profitable unto salvation, and that fastings, almsgivings, and the other duties of piety and exercises of the Christian militancy, bring forth eternal rewards only for those who remain within it [the unity of the ecclesiastical body]: and that, however great his almsgiving may be, and even though he might shed his blood for the name of Christ, no one can be saved unless he remains within the embrace and the unity of the Catholic Church. [Denz., 714.]
1. All of those outside the Church, even individuals who have committed no sin against the faith itself, are in a position in which they cannot be saved unless they in some way enter or join the Church before they die.
2. The alternative to eternal and supernatural salvation is deprivation of the Beatific Vision. In the case of those who are guilty of mortal sin which remains unrepented, this includes both the penalty of loss and the penalty of sense in hell.
3. The spiritual condition of one who is not "within" the Church at least by an act of implicit desire is incompatible with the reception of the life of sanctifying grace.
Monsignor Fenton
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The Feenyites have demonstrated, generally speaking, that they do not wish to seek the Truth. They argue for the sake of pride, such as do the protestant heretics. Very few conversions have occurred among those who argue do to pride. We can only pray that God will humble them.
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It is interesting how "implicit faith" BoDers assert that Feeneyites are outside the Church, while they maintain that Jews, Muslims, idol worshippers etc. can be in the Church through "implicit desire" if they are "invincibly ignorant" or believe in Rewarder God.
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It is interesting how "implicit faith" BoDers assert that Feeneyites are outside the Church, while they maintain that Jews, Muslims, idol worshippers etc. can be in the Church through "implicit desire" if they are "invincibly ignorant" or believe in Rewarder God.
Implicit Faith does not save anyone. I have not taught that anywhere. Get your facts straight.
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The Feenyites have demonstrated, generally speaking, that they do not wish to seek the Truth. They argue for the sake of pride, such as do the protestant heretics. Very few conversions have occurred among those who argue do to pride. We can only pray that God will humble them.
God will humble them. Hopefully not when it is too late.
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It is interesting how "implicit faith" BoDers assert that Feeneyites are outside the Church, while they maintain that Jews, Muslims, idol worshippers etc. can be in the Church through "implicit desire" if they are "invincibly ignorant" or believe in Rewarder God.
Implicit Faith does not save anyone. I have not taught that anywhere. Get your facts straight.
I wrote implicit faith or believe in Rewarder God - you certainly promote the latter one, arguing that belief in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity might not be necessary for Supernatural Faith, which is heretical. Not to mention that Suprema Haec Sacra which you keep promoting explicitly teaches that "implicit desire" is acceptable in the eyes of God and it must not be explicit if the person is invincibly ignorant.
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It is interesting how "implicit faith" BoDers assert that Feeneyites are outside the Church, while they maintain that Jews, Muslims, idol worshippers etc. can be in the Church through "implicit desire" if they are "invincibly ignorant" or believe in Rewarder God.
Implicit Faith does not save anyone. I have not taught that anywhere. Get your facts straight.
I wrote implicit faith or believe in Rewarder God - you certainly promote the latter one, arguing that belief in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity might not be necessary for Supernatural Faith, which is heretical. Not to mention that Suprema Haec Sacra which you keep promoting explicitly teaches that "implicit desire" is acceptable in the eyes of God and it must not be explicit if the person is invincibly ignorant.
If you don't mean "implicit faith" don't make the claim. For the record I have never claimed the "rewarder God" issue has been settled authoritatively either.
But again, if you don't mean "implicit faith" don't claim we believe such a heresy. Salvation, as I have said many times before here, is impossible without a supernatural Faith.
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It is interesting how "implicit faith" BoDers assert that Feeneyites are outside the Church, while they maintain that Jews, Muslims, idol worshippers etc. can be in the Church through "implicit desire" if they are "invincibly ignorant" or believe in Rewarder God.
Implicit Faith does not save anyone. I have not taught that anywhere. Get your facts straight.
I wrote implicit faith or believe in Rewarder God - you certainly promote the latter one, arguing that belief in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity might not be necessary for Supernatural Faith, which is heretical. Not to mention that Suprema Haec Sacra which you keep promoting explicitly teaches that "implicit desire" is acceptable in the eyes of God and it must not be explicit if the person is invincibly ignorant.
If you don't mean "implicit faith" don't make the claim. For the record I have never claimed the "rewarder God" issue has been settled authoritatively either.
But again, if you don't mean "implicit faith" don't claim we believe such a heresy. Salvation, as I have said many times before here, is impossible without a supernatural Faith.
That is heresy right there - the matter has been settled (Dogmatic Athanasian Creed, Cantate Domino, Vatican I and unanimous consent of the Church Fathers), and the possibility of salvation through believing in Rewarder God is contrary to the teaching of the Catholic Church.
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EVERYONE here uses the term "implicit faith" in reference to Rewader God theory, LoT. You've been hanging around here in the EENS forum on CI long enough to know this. You redefine the term (into something you yourself admit is ridiculous and not legitimate) and then slink away from the main charge.
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Incorrect. There is no such thing as implicit Faith. Show me where such a phrase is used in any infallible, authoritative docuмent. Or any theology manual. Or any Catechism. It is a made up term. The only possible phrase would be along the lines as an implicit desire for Faith. An implicit desire for Faith does not save anyone. There are no exceptions to this fact. Supernatural Faith is necessary with an intrinsic/absolute necessity of means for salvation to be even possible.
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Supernatural Faith is necessary with an intrinsic/absolute necessity of means for salvation to be even possible.
Yes, but according to you Supernatural Faith does not necessarily include faith in Jesus Christ and the Most Holy Trinity - that is heresy.
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When addressing the issue of Baptism of Desire Saint Thomas Aquinas says:
In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance.
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I don't read all your nonsense I merely post the truth. Show me in some official teaching where the term "implicit faith" is used in any sense whatsoever. Go away and keep looking and don't come back until you find it.
You are either a pathological liar or else schizophrenic. Cut to the chase:
It is really very simple, all that a BODer like LOT has to say is that they believe in explicit baptism of desire as taught by St. Thomas, and they reject the teaching that a non-believer in Jesus Christ, the Incarnation, and the Holy Trinity can be saved.
It is as simple as that. Yet, you will never answer that.
He will never answer. I don't see why anyone wastes time with LOT. He is a merry-go-round, always going in circles and coming back to where it all started.
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I don't read all your nonsense I merely post the truth. Show me in some official teaching where the term "implicit faith" is used in any sense whatsoever. Go away and keep looking and don't come back until you find it.
You are either a pathological liar or else schizophrenic. Cut to the chase:
It is really very simple, all that a BODer like LOT has to say is that they believe in explicit baptism of desire as taught by St. Thomas, and they reject the teaching that a non-believer in Jesus Christ, the Incarnation, and the Holy Trinity can be saved.
It is as simple as that. Yet, you will never answer that.
He will never answer. I don't see why anyone wastes time with LOT. He is a merry-go-round, always going in circles and coming back to where it all started.
You can get banned for posting the same thing on this forum with 24 hours as bowler did.
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Incorrect. There is no such thing as implicit Faith. Show me where such a phrase is used in any infallible, authoritative docuмent. Or any theology manual. Or any Catechism. It is a made up term. The only possible phrase would be along the lines as an implicit desire for Faith. An implicit desire for Faith does not save anyone. There are no exceptions to this fact. Supernatural Faith is necessary with an intrinsic/absolute necessity of means for salvation to be even possible.
:facepalm:
If the term doesn't exist, then how can you say that you don't believe in it? I asked you what you meant by it and then you gave it some ridiculous definition, and now you say it doesn't exist. So which is it?
I then went on to explain that people here on CI simply use it as shorthand for Rewarder God theory. Now if you can't move past this, just get off the thread. We're tired of wasting time due to your lack of comprehension skills.
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When addressing the issue of Baptism of Desire Saint Thomas Aquinas says:
In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance.
Who disagrees with this teaching of Saint Thomas. Would he fail to understand the great mind of Ladislaus were he here today?