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Author Topic: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"  (Read 3329 times)

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Offline trad123

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Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2020, 07:45:01 PM »
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  • I did not know this.  I just figured both go to Hell, so both suffer.  Can you provide Church teaching on this?

    St. Alphonsus

    Sermons for All the Sundays in the Year

    SERMON XLVIII. NINETEENTH SUNDAY AFTER PENTECOST. - ON THE PAIN OF LOSS WHICH THE DAMNED SUFFER IN HELL.

    https://www.evangelizationstation.com/htm_html/Liturgy/Liguori%20sermons_for_all_the_sundays_in_t.htm


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    11.

    (. . .)

    The reprobate then shall hate and curse all the benefits which God has bestowed upon them. They shall hate the benefits of creation, redemption, and the sacraments. But they shall hate in a particular manner the sacrament of baptism, by which they have, on account of their sins, been made more guilty in the sight of God; the sacrament of penance, by which, if they wished, they could have so easily saved their souls; and, above all, the most holy sacrament of the altar, in which God had given himself entirely to them. They shall consequently hate all the other means which have been helps to their salvation. Hence, they shall hate and curse all the angels and saints. But they shall curse particularly their guardian angels their special advocates and, above all, the divine mother Mary. They shall curse the three divine persons the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; but particularly Jesus Christ, the Incarnate Word, who suffered so much, and died for their salvation. They shall curse the wounds of Jesus Christ, the blood of Jesus Christ, and the death of Jesus Christ. Behold the end to which accursed sin leads the souls which Jesus Christ has dearly bought.


    Little Sermons on the Catechism by Cardinal Corsi

    Page 138 - 139

    https://archive.org/details/littlesermonsont00corsuoft/page/137/mode/2up


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    All these things which we have considered are well calculated to make comprehensible to us the priceless privilege of belonging to the Catholic Church, a blessing which we can never sufficiently appreciate, a grace which has been imparted to us by the mercy of God without any merit whatever on our part. He who has the misfortune of being born and taught in a false religion may turn to the true one, and many have done so. Yet it is extremely difficult to overcome the prejudices of training and education. Hence let us be most grateful to God for the precious gift of faith, and let us make use of it in the way He desires. Without this the blessing will be not only useless, but will merit for us greater punishment. What would it avail us, indeed, to be children of a holy Church if we were to lead lives in contradiction to her teachings?


    Mystical City of God, Volume III, by Venerable Mary of Agreda

    https://www.ecatholic2000.com/agreda/vol3/vol3.shtml


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    538.

    (. . .)

    Among the obscure caverns of the infernal prisons was a very large one, arranged for more horrible chastisements than the others, and which was still unoccupied; for the demons had been unable to cast any soul into it, although their cruelty had induced them to attempt it many times from the time of Cain unto that day. All hell had remained astonished at the failure of these attempts, being entirely ignorant of the mystery, until the arrival of the soul of Judas, which they readily succeeded in hurling and burying in this prison never before occupied by any of the damned. The secret of it was, that this cavern of greater torments and fiercer fires of hell, from the creation of the world, had been destined for those, who, after having received Baptism, would damn themselves by the neglect of the Sacraments, the doctrines, the Passion and Death of the Savior, and the intercession of his most holy Mother. As Judas had been the first one who had so signally participated in these blessings, and as he had so fearfully misused them, he was also the first to suffer the torments of this place, prepared for him and his imitators and followers.



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    751.

    (. . .)

    Then and there the infernal spirits resolved to persecute and torment more grievously the Catholics, and chastise more severely those who should deny or repudiate the Catholic faith. For they concluded that these merited greater punishment than the infidels, to whom it is not preached.



    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 20 on Hebrews

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/240220.htm


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    9.

    (. . .)

    And what I just now said, that I repeat, that they shall suffer greater punishment, who, when they have enjoyed all good things, do not even so become better. For all shall not be punished alike; but they who, even after His benefits, have continued evil, shall suffer a greater punishment, while they who after poverty [have done this] not so. And that this is true, hear what He says to David, "Did I not give you all your master's goods?" 2 Samuel 12:8 Whenever then you see a young man that has received a paternal inheritance without labor and continues wicked, be assured that his punishment is increased and the vengeance is made more intense.  Let us not then emulate these; but if any man has succeeded to virtue, if any man has obtained spiritual wealth, [him let us emulate]. For (it is said) "Woe to them that trust in their riches" cf.Psalm 49:6: "Blessed are they that fear the Lord." Psalm 128:1 To which of these, tell me, would you belong? Doubtless to those who are pronounced blessed. Therefore emulate these, not the other, that you also may obtain the good things which are laid up for them. Which may we all obtain, in Christ Jesus our Lord, with whom to the Father be glory together with the Holy Ghost, now and for ever, and world without end. Amen.


    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 8 on First Thessalonians

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/230408.htm


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    Would you see those also punished, who were of the number of believers, and who held fast to God, but were not of upright life? Hear Paul saying, "Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us murmur, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them tempted, and perished by the serpents." 1 Corinthians 10:8-10 And if fornication, and if murmuring had such power, what will not be the effect of our sins? And if you dost not now pay the penalty, do not wonder. For they knew not of a hell, therefore they were visited with punishments following close at their heels. But you, whatever sins thou commit, though you should escape present penalty, will pay for it all There.

    Did he so punish those who were nearly in the state of children, and who did not sin so greatly — and will He spare us? It would not be reasonable. For if we commit the same sins with them, we shall deserve a greater punishment than they did.  Wherefore? Because we have enjoyed more grace. But when our offenses are numerous, and more heinous than theirs, what vengeance shall we not undergo? They — and let no one think I say it as admiring them, or excusing them; far be it: for when God punishes, he who passes a contrary sentence, does it at the suggestion of the devil; I say this therefore, not praising them nor excusing them, but showing our wickedness— they therefore, although they murmured, were, however, traveling a wilderness road: but we murmur though we have a country, and are in our own houses. They, although they committed fornication, yet it was just after they came out of the evils of Egypt, and had hardly heard of such a law. But we do it, having previously received from our forefathers the doctrine of salvation, so that we are deserving of greater punishment.



    St. Chrysostom

    Homily 1 on the Acts of the Apostles

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210101.htm


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    As if then we were banquetting with Christ Himself, and partaking of His table, let us do nothing at random, but let us pass our time in fastings, and prayers, and much sobriety of mind. For if a man who is destined to enter upon some temporal government, prepares himself all his life long, and that he may obtain some dignity, lays out his money, spends his time, and submits to endless troubles; what shall we deserve, who draw near to the kingdom of heaven with such negligence, and both show no earnestness before we have received, and after having received are again negligent? Nay, this is the very reason why we are negligent after having received, that we did not watch before we had received.

    Therefore many, after they have received, immediately have returned to their former vomit, and have become more wicked, and drawn upon themselves a more severe punishment; when having been delivered from their former sins, herein they have more grievously provoked the Judge, that having been delivered from so great a disease, still they did not learn sobriety, but that has happened unto them, which Christ threatened to the paralytic man, saying, "Behold you are made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you" John 5:14: and which He also predicted of the Jews, that "the last state shall be worse than the first." Matthew 12:45 For if, says He, showing that by their ingratitude they should bring upon them the worst of evils, "if I had not come, and spoken unto them, they had not had sin" John 15:22; so that the guilt of sins committed after these benefits is doubled and quadrupled, in that, after the honour put upon us, we show ourselves ungrateful and wicked. And the Laver of Baptism helps not a whit to procure for us a milder punishment.

    And consider: a man has gotten grievous sins by committing murder or adultery, or some other crime: these were remitted through Baptism. For there is no sin, no impiety, which does not yield and give place to this gift; for the Grace is Divine. A man has again committed adultery and murder; the former adultery is indeed done away, the murder forgiven, and not brought up again to his charge, "for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" Romans 11:29; but for those committed after Baptism he suffers a punishment as great as he would if both the former sins were brought up again, and many worse than these. For the guilt is no longer simply equal, but doubled and tripled. Look: in proof that the penalty of these sins is greater, hear what St. Paul says: "He that despised Moses' law died without mercy, under two or three witnesses: of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" Hebrews 10:28-29
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #31 on: February 09, 2020, 09:28:56 PM »
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  • "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #32 on: February 11, 2020, 05:43:06 AM »
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  • I'm not following.  How is keeping him from baptism saving him from additional suffering?
    I just saw this and thanks trad123 for your references. I don't remember seeing actual Church teachings on this, it is just what was taught by nuns, priests and parents to curious children when I was one.

    The jist of course in a nutshell, is that if you die as a good little Catholic (baptized) child, it's because God loved you so much that He wanted you with Him in heaven right away. But if he died before baptism, it's because God saw he did not really want to be baptized or be Catholic, and would have gone onto live an evil life, a life of sin. So taking him now means less suffering since he only has comparatively very few sins than had he lived a full life.

    This was actually explained to pretty much the whole Catholic school I went to as a 1st grader after a 3rd grader was accidentally shot and died instantly during his 8th birthday party. I guess you could've called that "grief counseling' according to the Catholic faith".    
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline MiserereMeiDei

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #33 on: February 18, 2020, 11:39:56 PM »
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  • The very reason that "Or the desire thereof" was transformed into a BOD, is because instead of simply reading it as it is written, they HAVE GOT TO [mis]interpret it or they cannot possibly EVER get a BOD out of it, because what Trent is actually teaching, is condemning those who say justification is obtained without the sacrament or without the desire thereof. That is it, no interpretation, no added exceptions, just what it actually teaches.

    So how is it even remotely possible that they take that clear decree, and insist it must be flipped into a BOD, where salvation is obtained without the sacrament, but with the desire thereof? It boggles the mind.
    I've been trying to figure this stuff out for months since I first heard about it.  The idea that Muslims and Jews and atheists can go to heaven is obviously nonsense.  I don't really understand Feeny's position, but now that I've found this site and this section, I hope to when I dig through older threads.

    When reading "or the desire thereof", my initial thought was that it was a reference to forced baptism and that it was clarifying that a person baptized against his will just got wet rather than entered the Church, not a reference to BOD.  

    I had some young Catholic woman recently telling me atheists could go to heaven and was extremely upset that I kept insisting that only Catholics could go to heaven.  

    I don't know what people here would say (well, those who allow for some kind of BOD, anyway), and please correct me if I'm wrong, but I told her that although an atheist cannot go to heaven, we cannot know he didn't convert at the final moments with perfect contrition by a special grace of God (sort of placing him in the state of a catechumen, though obviously informally).  This does kind of bother me though, because I thought it was fine, or rather we should assume that a pagan, apostate, formal heretic or atheist didn't make it even if there is a possibility that they might receive some special grace we don't know about.  What bothers me though is that seems right to make the assumption they were damned and it shouldn't be ambiguous.

    Offline trad123

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #34 on: March 10, 2020, 10:27:04 PM »
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  • I just saw this and thanks trad123 for your references.

    Another:

    St. Augustine, Exposition on Psalm 78

    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801078.htm


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    11. For He that "did burst asunder the sea and made them go through, did confine the waters as it were in bottles" Psalm 77:13, in order that the water might stand up first as if it were shut in, is able by His grace to restrain the flowing and ebbing tides of carnal desires, when we renounce this world, so that all sins having been thoroughly washed away, as if they were enemies, the people of the faithful may be made to pass through by means of the Sacrament of Baptism. He that "led them home in the cloud of the day, and in the whole of the night in the illumination of fire" Psalm 77:14, is able also spiritually to direct goings if faith cries to Him, "Direct my goings after Your word." Of Whom in another place is said, "For Himself shall make your courses right, and shall prolong your goings in peace" through Jesus Christ our Lord, whose Sacrament in this world, as it were in the day, is manifest in the flesh, as if in a cloud; but in the Judgment it will be manifest like as in a terror by night; for then there will be a great tribulation of the world like as it were fire, and it shall shine for the just and shall burn for the unjust.
    2 Corinthians 4:3-4 

    And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.


    Offline Legiter

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #35 on: July 23, 2020, 09:23:56 PM »
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  • Was St. Alphonsus a heretic when he taught implicit baptism of desire?
    Implicit baptism of desire, as explained by Saint Alphonsus, does not translate into salvation through "implicit faith in Christ" [unlike what modernist heretics now a days believe]. Saint Alphonsus believed that implicit BoD only applied to those who accept Christ, but have no knowledge of the sacrament of baptism, and implicitly desire it through their explicit belief in Christ, and true contrition for their sins.

    Offline Legiter

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #36 on: July 23, 2020, 09:29:14 PM »
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  • Offline Incredulous

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #37 on: July 24, 2020, 06:41:44 AM »
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  • LOLOL AHAHAHAHA :laugh2:
    Let me guess:

    That’s Poche, circa 1987 in Manhattan, while dancing at Club54 ?
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi