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Author Topic: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"  (Read 3334 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
« on: February 07, 2020, 01:38:12 PM »
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    • From someone with 20+ years of experience, if you want to avoid these long drawn out threads about so-called "baptism of desire", as soon as a BODers starts a thread to teach people about baptism of desire, just ask them one question, and repeat it a few times by cutting and pasting. That is how I got rid of the biggest BOD poster in Cathinfo history, Lover of Truth, a perfect example of a false BODer who hid behind baptism of desire of the catechumen.

    QUESTION:

    Just tell me one thing, is the discussion about baptism of desire of the catechumen, the catechumen who is on the way to be baptized and gets run over by a truck? Are you one of those few honest BODers that limits his belief to BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas? Or are you just one of the legion of sophists false BODers that believes Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed people in any religion (that have no explicit desire to be Catholic, or baptized, or belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity)?
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    Offline Bonaventure

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #1 on: February 07, 2020, 04:36:29 PM »
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    • ^--- The last sentence of the "Question" appears to be incomplete--there is no object denoting what "...one of the legion of sophists false BODers..." believes.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #2 on: February 07, 2020, 05:09:24 PM »
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    • Was St. Alphonsus a heretic when he taught implicit baptism of desire?
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    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #3 on: February 07, 2020, 06:46:44 PM »
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    • No, he was simply mistaken.
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    Offline JoeZ

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #4 on: February 07, 2020, 06:51:47 PM »
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    • While I disagree with even the Thomistic version of BOD, just to stop the stupid arguing I am and have just conceded the point as LT laid out here. It works if your not faced with a rabid modernist.
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #5 on: February 07, 2020, 06:55:03 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on February 07, 2020, 05:09:24 PM
    Was St. Alphonsus a heretic when he taught implicit baptism of desire?

    Define "implicit Baptism of Desire".  Depending on how you define the term, I will either concede or deny that he ever taught such a thing.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #6 on: February 07, 2020, 07:43:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 07, 2020, 01:38:12 PM
    From someone with 20+ years of experience, if you want to avoid these long drawn out threads about so-called "baptism of desire", as soon as a BODers starts a thread to teach people about baptism of desire, just ask them one question, and repeat it a few times by cutting and pasting. That is how I got rid of the biggest BOD poster in Cathinfo history, Lover of Truth, a perfect example of a false BODer who hid behind baptism of desire of the catechumen.

    QUESTION:

    Just tell me one thing, is the discussion about baptism of desire of the catechumen, the catechumen who is on the way to be baptized and gets run over by a truck? Are you one of those few honest BODers that limits his belief to BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas? Or are you just one of the legion of sophists false BODers that believes Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed people in any religion (that have no explicit desire to be Catholic, or baptized, or belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity)?


    The three things commonly held that are necessary to believe are the Trinity, the Incarceration and the Redemption. By believing in the Redemption one can implicitly believe in the necessity of baptism as I believe Saint Alphonsus, among others, taught. Please give me a reference from an approved theologian that supports your assertion. If I’m wrong, that Saint Alphonsus did not teach such a thing, I will gladly admit I’m wrong.


    Just to be clear,  I think that it’s most likely that all cases of baptism of desire only happened to catechumens.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #7 on: February 07, 2020, 07:52:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Bonaventure on February 07, 2020, 04:36:29 PM
    ^--- The last sentence of the "Question" appears to be incomplete--there is no object denoting what "...one of the legion of sophists false BODers..." believes.
    I really meant for the individual person to ask the question his own way, what I wrote was just my example, anyhow here it is fixed: 


    QUESTION:

    Just tell me one thing, is the discussion about baptism of desire of the catechumen, the catechumen who is on the way to be baptized and gets run over by a truck? Are you one of those few honest BODers that limits his belief to BOD of the catechumen of St. Thomas Aquinas? Or are you just another of the legion of sophists false BODers that believes Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed people in any religion (that have no explicit desire to be Catholic, or baptized, or belief in the Incarnation or the Holy Trinity) can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, by implicit faith?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #8 on: February 07, 2020, 07:56:51 PM »
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    • I believe exactly what Lefebvre said on the subject and I've never been shy about admitting to this.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #9 on: February 07, 2020, 08:03:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on February 07, 2020, 07:43:17 PM

    The three things commonly held that are necessary to believe are the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Redemption. By believing in the Redemption one can implicitly believe in the necessity of baptism as I believe Saint Alphonsus, among others, taught. Please give me a reference from an approved theologian that supports your assertion. If I’m wrong, that Saint Alphonsus did not teach such a thing, I will gladly admit I’m wrong.


    Just to be clear,  I think that it’s most likely that all cases of baptism of desire only happened to catechumens.
    What does St. Alphonsus Ligouri's belief that "By believing in the Redemption one can implicitly believe in the necessity of baptism" have to do with the conciliar church belief that people in any religion can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards? ( P.S. - I never heard that quote by St. A. Ligouri regarding the Redemption ) 
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #10 on: February 07, 2020, 08:07:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 07, 2020, 07:56:51 PM
    I believe exactly what Lefebvre said on the subject and I've never been shy about admitting to this.
    But you are not a person who creates threads about BOD, nor are you obsessed with teaching that people in all religions can be saved. You really are just asking questions.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #11 on: February 07, 2020, 08:09:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 07, 2020, 08:03:30 PM
    What does St. Alphonsus Ligouri's belief that "By believing in the Redemption one can implicitly believe in the necessity of baptism" have to do with the conciliar church belief that people in any religion can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards? ( P.S. - I never heard that quote by St. A. Ligouri regarding the Redemption )
    No one can be saved in their false religion. Also, I didn’t quote Saint Alphonsus. I was merely explaining what I believe he taught. Ladislaus, please correct me if I’m wrong about that.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #12 on: February 07, 2020, 08:31:56 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 07, 2020, 08:07:17 PM
    But you are not a person who creates threads about BOD, nor are you obsessed with teaching that people in all religions can be saved. You really are just asking questions.
    True, I mean between Feeney and Barron I'd take feeney any day lol.

    Would you present Lefebvre's position as saying "people in all religions can be saved?"  I know you'd disagree with him, but would you say he was saying that?
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    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #13 on: February 07, 2020, 08:34:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: ByzCat3000 on February 07, 2020, 08:31:56 PM
    True, I mean between Feeney and Barron I'd take feeney any day lol.

    Would you present Lefebvre's position as saying "people in all religions can be saved?"  I know you'd disagree with him, but would you say he was saying that?
    I mean, in real life I spend a lot more time trying to convince Catholics that Protestants (let alone Jews or Muslims) are in grave danger, then I do trying to convince Feeneyites that they technically have a marginal chance under pristine conditions, lol
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: How to Cut to the Chase with "BODers"
    « Reply #14 on: February 07, 2020, 08:35:30 PM »
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    • Quote from: Last Tradhican on February 07, 2020, 01:38:12 PM
    From someone with 20+ years of experience, if you want to avoid these long drawn out threads about so-called "baptism of desire", as soon as a BODers starts a thread to teach people about baptism of desire, just ask them one question, and repeat it a few times by cutting and pasting. That is how I got rid of the biggest BOD poster in Cathinfo history, Lover of Truth, a perfect example of a false BODer who hid behind baptism of desire of the catechumen.
    Lover of Truth, was the king of false BOD thread starters on CI, he would sometimes start four threads in one day and keep repeating the same quotes over and over. In my experience what I have found is that the BOD pushers are all the same in this regard, they are obsessed with teaching others that people in any religion can be saved and they despise those that believe in the dogmas on EENS as they are written (EENSers). They despise them because EENSers are a rebuke to them, they shine a light on the fact that what the false BODers believe is totally opposed to the dogmas on EENS, totally opposed. This is why they are constantly starting threads to teach that people in any religion can be saved, they want to drown out their conscience. They are like the divorced and re-married Catholic who despise Catholics and the Catholic Church because it is a rebuke to them.

    This is "the divorce" that makes them hate strict EENSers, they can't accept the dogmas as they are written:

    Quote
    The SSPV, The Roman Catholic,  Fall 2003, p. 7: “With the strict, literal interpretation of this doctrine, however, I must take issue, for if I read and understand the strict interpreters correctly, nowhere is allowance made for invincible ignorance, conscience, or good faith on the part of those who are not actual or formal members of the Church at the moment of death. It is inconceivable to me that, of all the billions of non-Catholics who have died in the past nineteen and one-half centuries, none of them were in good faith in this matter and, if they were, I simply refuse to believe that hell is their eternal destiny.”

    Dogmas are the words of the Holy Ghost spoken by the popes and councils approved by the popes. They are the final word. If they required interpretation, then they have failed and are not the final word. Keep in mind that the Pontiffs who pronounced these decrees were perfectly literate and fully cognizant of what they were saying. If there were any need to soften or qualify their meanings, they were quite capable of doing so.

    Here are just a few dogmas on EENS and how they are changed COMPLETELY by the false BODers (in red):


     Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:
     
     “The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.” (Muslim, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, indeed, people in any other false religion can be saved by their belief in a god that rewards, thus they are in the Church. They can’t be saved even if they shed their blood for Christ, but they can be saved even if they do not want to be Catholics, do not want to be baptized, and do not believe in Christ or the Holy Trinity. They are saved their belief in a god that rewards.)
     
     
     Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, Constitution 1, 1215, ex cathedra: “There is indeed one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which nobody at all is saved, …(Persons in all false religions can be part of the faithful by their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     Pope Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, Nov. 18, 1302, ex cathedra:
     
     “… this Church outside of which there is no salvation nor remission of sin… Furthermore, … every human creature that they by absolute necessity for salvation are entirely subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Persons in all false religions by their belief in a god that rewards are inside the Church, so they can have remission of sin. They do not have to be subject to the Roman Pontiff because they do not even know that they have to be baptized Catholics, why further complicate things for tem with submission to the pope?)
     
     
     
     Pope Clement V, Council of Vienne, Decree # 30, 1311-1312, ex cathedra:
     
     “… one universal Church, outside of which there is no salvation, for all of whom there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism…” (one thousand lords  , one faith by their belief in a god that rewards, and one invisible baptism by, you guessed it,  their belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
    Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra:
     
     “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.” ( the Catholic faith is belief in a god that rewards)
     
     
     
     
    Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council, Session 11, Dec. 19, 1516, ex cathedra:
     
     “For, regulars and seculars, prelates and subjects, exempt and non-exempt, belong to the one universal Church, outside of which no one at all is saved, and they all have one Lord and one faith.” (Just pick a few from the above excuses, from here on it’s a cake walk, just create your own burger with the above ingredients. You’ll be an expert at it in no time.)
     
     
     Pope Pius IV, Council of Trent, Iniunctum nobis, Nov. 13, 1565, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which no one can be saved… I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     
     Pope Benedict XIV, Nuper ad nos, March 16, 1743, Profession of Faith: “This faith of the Catholic Church, without which no one can be saved, and which of my own accord I now profess and truly hold…”
     
     
    Pope Pius IX, Vatican Council I, Session 2, Profession of Faith, 1870, ex cathedra: “This true Catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold…”
     
     

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