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Author Topic: How old is baptism by desire?  (Read 3004 times)

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Offline Iuvenalis

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How old is baptism by desire?
« on: July 30, 2011, 11:18:53 AM »
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  • How old is the teaching baptism by desire. When was this dogma? Is it dogmatic?

    Anyone have an old catechism laying around, was this teaching there?

    I believe Feeney argues against baptism by desire? Anyone here a Feeneyite?

    Is baptism by desire a novelty added to the deposit of the Faith, late?

    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #1 on: July 30, 2011, 11:29:09 AM »
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  • It is not such a biggie, but this would probably fit better in the Crisis folder.  I wish neither to encourage nor discourage you from trying to find the answers you seek, but there are already quite a few threads on this topic.  You might look through some of them (many are on the long side) to see if someone has already provided some info that may be of use.

    Carry on...
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."


    Offline Iuvenalis

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #2 on: July 30, 2011, 12:12:50 PM »
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  • Quote from: gladius_veritatis
    It is not such a biggie, but this would probably fit better in the Crisis folder.  I wish neither to encourage nor discourage you from trying to find the answers you seek, but there are already quite a few threads on this topic.  You might look through some of them (many are on the long side) to see if someone has already provided some info that may be of use.

    Carry on...


    If someone wishes to link a post instead of recapitulating a point, that's fine too.

     I will search for the threads you mention, as I wasn't sure there'd be any.

    As for putting this in the 'Crisis' section I didn't think of that because I wasn't aware Baptism by Desire was *that* controversial.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #3 on: July 30, 2011, 12:25:19 PM »
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  • No doubt the teaching of Baptism began when the early Christians were tossed into the lions den without baptism of water, and there are many of them, some are even canonized.
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline rowsofvoices9

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #4 on: July 30, 2011, 12:49:05 PM »
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  • http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/ct06.html
    The Council of Trent
    The Sixth Session
    DECREE ON JUSTIFICATION
     
    CHAPTER IV.
    A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.
    By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God.

     
    Quote:
    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. 6, Chap. 4: “In these words there is suggested a description of the justification of the impious, how there is a transition from that state in which a person is born as a child of the first Adam to the state of grace and of adoption as sons of God through the second Adam, Jesus Christ our savior; indeed, this transition, once the gospel has been promulgated, cannot take place without the laver of regeneration or a desire for it, as it is written: Unless a man is born again of water and the Holy Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5).” Denzinger 796; Decrees of the Ecuмenical Councils, Vol. 2, p. 672.
     
    Quote:

    Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Session 7, Can. 4, On the Sacraments: “If anyone says that the sacraments of the new law are not necessary for salvation but are superfluous, and that people obtain the grace of justification from God without them or a desire for them, by faith alone, though all are not necessary for each individual: let him be anathema.”

     
    http://www.archive.org/stream/biblicaltreasury00coxtuoft#page/n183/mode/2up
     
    Biblical treasury of the catechism with many scripture quotes that support baptism of desire and baptism of blood.
    Pages 183-189 (page counter at top right).
    My conscience compels me to make this disclaimer lest God judges me partly culpable for the errors and heresy promoted on this forum... For the record I support neither Sedevacantism or the SSPX.  I do not define myself as either a traditionalist or Novus


    Offline Stubborn

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #5 on: July 30, 2011, 02:04:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Iuvenalis
    How old is the teaching baptism by desire. When was this dogma? Is it dogmatic?

    Anyone have an old catechism laying around, was this teaching there?

    I believe Feeney argues against baptism by desire? Anyone here a Feeneyite?

    Is baptism by desire a novelty added to the deposit of the Faith, late?


    There is no such thing as a dogma on Baptism of Desire or Baptism of Blood.
    Perhaps if there were such a dogma, there would not be any discussions as to what BOD even is - (there are umpteen different opinions and ideas of what BOD even is) or whether or not BOD can save.

    Here's a short, non-Fr. Feeney article.....
    http://fatherwathen.com/125.html

    ................It cannot be denied that the two positions are poles apart. The liberal position boils down to this: God will not deny Heaven to any man who does "the best that he knows how." This means that countless millions of men from every generation and place and race and religion, even atheists, can and will be saved. It includes practically everybody.

    Those of the liberal view vehemently deny that their position "boils down" to the foregoing, but, the truth of the matter is, unless one adopts the strict interpretation of our Lord's words, allowing no exceptions whatsoever, such is the bent of human beings that they will always widen loopholes to allow themselves and others (especially their relatives) the utmost latitude, and they will regard the "strict position" as intolerable and abhorrent.

    The purpose of this writing is to deal seriously with the idea of "baptism of desire," which, in the mind of many "conservative-minded" Catholics, means that non-Catholics will be saved who, for want of a priest: (a) make a perfect act of contrition at the time of their death; and/or:

    (b) make an act of faith, wherein they profess belief in the Catholic religion and express to almighty God, implicitly or explicitly, the desire for Baptism.

    In support of this position, those who adhere to it refer to the many catechisms which contain it, and to numerous saints who held it, and, the most forceful argument of all: to the fact that the consensus of theologians, living and dead, was that this view should be accepted as proxima fidei, which means that it is "nearly a doctrine."

    The problem with this position is that (a) several de fide definitions of the Church condemn it. (b) two canons of the Council of Trent contradict and censure it;

    (c) there is no foundation in the Scriptures for the idea of "baptism of desire;"

    (d) none of those who promote the idea, which they want to call the "doctrine of baptism of desire," explain how it can have the same effect in the soul as the Sacrament has, that is, how it can dispose one for Heaven.

    (e) there is no solid evidence that anyone has been saved by "baptism of desire."

    (f) if one can baptize oneself by "desire," why can one not baptize oneself with water?

    When all is said and done, the undeniable fact is that "baptism of desisre," which has been spoken of and written about favorably for many centuries, is a product of human creation. It was created "for sentimental reasons" and nothing else. It is an escape from, and a circuмvention of, the hard teaching of Christ.His teaching is that, in order to be saved,....................
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline LordPhan

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    Offline parentsfortruth

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #7 on: July 30, 2011, 03:25:10 PM »
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  •  :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

    This is such an irrelevant issue. The Church doesn't deal in hypotheticals. This issue has been overdone on this forum. Over and over and over and over and over. Just search Baptism of Desire in a search on the forum.

    Can we please quit talking about this already? It's like "Is the sky indigo, or is it really blue, or is it true blue?"

    Go look up other overdone threads if you want to see the opinions of the people on this forum. They are located in the crisis section.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,


    Offline Iuvenalis

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #8 on: July 30, 2011, 11:20:47 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:

    This is such an irrelevant issue. The Church doesn't deal in hypotheticals. This issue has been overdone on this forum. Over and over and over and over and over. Just search Baptism of Desire in a search on the forum.

    Can we please quit talking about this already? It's like "Is the sky indigo, or is it really blue, or is it true blue?"

    Go look up other overdone threads if you want to see the opinions of the people on this forum. They are located in the crisis section.


    I guess I never understood the concept of trying to quash a thread that's 'done':

    I've been a veteran at some forums with thousands of posts, and I've been the new guy.

    When I was the veteran who thought a topic was 'done' or 'overdone' or I was 'over it' I just skipped the thread, didn't read it, or certainyl didn't post in it.

    I realized it's often unrealistic for someone who doesn't know much about a topic to know the correct search terms. Case in point, I'm not even sure it is always referred to as 'baptism of desire' and I fear I might miss relevant threads or points of view if I only search for that.

    It is, after all, a discussion forum, and people want to talk to people rather than endlessly read and sift through articles that may be chaff.

    Again, if one doesn't want to talk about it, they could just not talk about it? *cough*

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #9 on: July 31, 2011, 08:23:49 AM »
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  • I'll bump one for you and you can look there. :) This is not an issue for general discussion. It's for the crisis section.
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline ajpirc

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #10 on: July 31, 2011, 07:30:38 PM »
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  • These are some  questions regarding Baptism of Blood and martyrs:

    Is Baptism of Blood a "get into Heaven free card?"

    If a Protestant is killed because of their faith in Christ, do they count as a "Christian" martyr? Is this considered BOB or do you have to die for the Catholic Faith?

    I ask these questions because someone from CAF on my "Are there any Protestant Saints?" thread said that girl that died at Columbine died for "Christ" with the BOB. Someone later responded that some Lutheran ministers that were killed with St. M. Kolbe in the cσncєnтrαтισn cαмρ died in the BOB.

    I know I don't know if these people had the desire to convert, but let's say they didn't, would they be considered martyrs and would this be true Baptism of Blood?

    If there are any questions regarding this, please ask.

    Thank You
    "If I saw an Angel and a priest, I would bend my knee first to the priest and then to the Angel." --St. Francis of Assisi (later quoted by St. John Vianney)

    "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of ev


    Offline gladius_veritatis

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    How old is baptism by desire?
    « Reply #11 on: July 31, 2011, 07:48:38 PM »
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  • Article 11. Whether three kinds of Baptism are fittingly described--viz. Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit?

    Objection 1. It seems that the three kinds of Baptism are not fittingly described as Baptism of Water, of Blood, and of the Spirit, i.e. of the Holy Ghost. Because the Apostle says (Ephesians 4:5): "One Faith, one Baptism." Now there is but one Faith. Therefore there should not be three Baptisms.

    Objection 2. Further, Baptism is a sacrament, as we have made clear above (Question 65, Article 1). Now none but Baptism of Water is a sacrament. Therefore we should not reckon two other Baptisms.

    Objection 3. Further, Damascene (De Fide Orth. iv) distinguishes several other kinds of Baptism. Therefore we should admit more than three Baptisms.

    On the contrary, on Hebrews 6:2, "Of the doctrine of Baptisms," the gloss says: "He uses the plural, because there is Baptism of Water, of Repentance, and of Blood."

    I answer that, As stated above (Question 62, Article 5), Baptism of Water has its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which a man is conformed by Baptism, and also from the Holy Ghost, as first cause. Now although the effect depends on the first cause, the cause far surpasses the effect, nor does it depend on it. Consequently, a man may, without Baptism of Water, receive the sacramental effect from Christ's Passion, in so far as he is conformed to Christ by suffering for Him. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 7:14): "These are they who are come out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes and have made them white in the blood of the Lamb." In like manner a man receives the effect of Baptism by the power of the Holy Ghost, not only without Baptism of Water, but also without Baptism of Blood: forasmuch as his heart is moved by the Holy Ghost to believe in and love God and to repent of his sins: wherefore this is also called Baptism of Repentance. Of this it is written (Isaiah 4:4): "If the Lord shall wash away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall wash away the blood of Jerusalem out of the midst thereof, by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning." Thus, therefore, each of these other Baptisms is called Baptism, forasmuch as it takes the place of Baptism. Wherefore Augustine says (De Unico Baptismo Parvulorum iv): "The Blessed Cyprian argues with considerable reason from the thief to whom, though not baptized, it was said: 'Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise' that suffering can take the place of Baptism. Having weighed this in my mind again and again, I perceive that not only can suffering for the name of Christ supply for what was lacking in Baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart, if perchance on account of the stress of the times the celebration of the mystery of Baptism is not practicable."

    Reply to Objection 1. The other two Baptisms are included in the Baptism of Water, which derives its efficacy, both from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost. Consequently for this reason the unity of Baptism is not destroyed.

    Reply to Objection 2. As stated above (Question 60, Article 1), a sacrament is a kind of sign. The other two, however, are like the Baptism of Water, not, indeed, in the nature of sign, but in the baptismal effect. Consequently they are not sacraments.

    Reply to Objection 3. Damascene enumerates certain figurative Baptisms. For instance, "the Deluge" was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of the salvation of the faithful in the Church; since then "a few . . . souls were saved in the ark [Vulgate: 'by water'," according to 1 Peter 3:20. He also mentions "the crossing of the Red Sea": which was a figure of our Baptism, in respect of our delivery from the bondage of sin; hence the Apostle says (1 Corinthians 10:2) that "all . . . were baptized in the cloud and in the sea." And again he mentions "the various washings which were customary under the Old Law," which were figures of our Baptism, as to the cleansing from sins: also "the Baptism of John," which prepared the way for our Baptism.

    Article 12. Whether the Baptism of Blood is the most excellent of these?

    Objection 1. It seems that the Baptism of Blood is not the most excellent of these three. For the Baptism of Water impresses a character; which the Baptism of Blood cannot do. Therefore the Baptism of Blood is not more excellent than the Baptism of Water.

    Objection 2. Further, the Baptism of Blood is of no avail without the Baptism of the Spirit, which is by charity; for it is written (1 Corinthians 13:3): "If I should deliver my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing." But the Baptism of the Spirit avails without the Baptism of Blood; for not only the martyrs are saved. Therefore the Baptism of Blood is not the most excellent.

    Objection 3. Further, just as the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion, to which, as stated above (Article 11), the Baptism of Blood corresponds, so Christ's Passion derives its efficacy from the Holy Ghost, according to Hebrews 9:14: "The Blood of Christ, Who by the Holy Ghost offered Himself unspotted unto God, shall cleanse our conscience from dead works," etc. Therefore the Baptism of the Spirit is more excellent than the Baptism of Blood. Therefore the Baptism of Blood is not the most excellent.

    On the contrary, Augustine (Ad Fortunatum) speaking of the comparison between Baptisms says: "The newly baptized confesses his faith in the presence of the priest: the martyr in the presence of the persecutor. The former is sprinkled with water, after he has confessed; the latter with his blood. The former receives the Holy Ghost by the imposition of the bishop's hands; the latter is made the temple of the Holy Ghost."

    I answer that, As stated above (Article 11), the shedding of blood for Christ's sake, and the inward operation of the Holy Ghost, are called baptisms, in so far as they produce the effect of the Baptism of Water. Now the Baptism of Water derives its efficacy from Christ's Passion and from the Holy Ghost, as already stated (11). These two causes act in each of these three Baptisms; most excellently, however, in the Baptism of Blood. For Christ's Passion acts in the Baptism of Water by way of a figurative representation; in the Baptism of the Spirit or of Repentance, by way of desire. but in the Baptism of Blood, by way of imitating the (Divine) act. In like manner, too, the power of the Holy Ghost acts in the Baptism of Water through a certain hidden power. in the Baptism of Repentance by moving the heart; but in the Baptism of Blood by the highest degree of fervor of dilection and love, according to John 15:13: "Greater love than this no man hath that a man lay down his life for his friends."

    Reply to Objection 1. A character is both reality and a sacrament. And we do not say that the Baptism of Blood is more excellent, considering the nature of a sacrament; but considering the sacramental effect.

    Reply to Objection 2. The shedding of blood is not in the nature of a Baptism if it be without charity. Hence it is clear that the Baptism of Blood includes the Baptism of the Spirit, but not conversely. And from this it is proved to be more perfect.

    Reply to Objection 3. The Baptism owes its pre-eminence not only to Christ's Passion, but also to the Holy Ghost, as stated above.
    "Fear God, and keep His commandments: for this is all man."