Author Topic: How can you defend the salvation dogma with... (Read 7133 times)

SJB · « **Reply #75 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:03:11 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Stubborn · « **Reply #76 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:07:21 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

God saves all through the Roman Catholic Church. Sanctifying grace comes to all who obtain it through the Roman Catholic Church, through the offering of Mass and as a result of your prayers and mine. Non-members of the Roman Catholic Church can be joined to God through the Roman Catholic Church without realizing it. God knows, and there is no need for the unschooled to speculate, and less need for us to "impose" those speculations on others.

Typical liberal double talk there LOT. Same compromising garbage that got us in this crisis in the first place.

Stubborn · « **Reply #77 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:10:28 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you EVER answer ANY question EVER - even only just one time?

You are a lost cause if you need defined canons taught to you in such a way that they are made to teach what they do not say.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #78 on:** October 22, 2013, 09:21:23 AM »

For our part if we do what we can to convert people they will be validly baptized if they have not been already. We fearlessly state the fact that there is no salvation outside the Church and that non-members can be saved by that Church at the moment of death due to their attachment to Her, noting that they become actual members at the moment of death.

SJB · « **Reply #79 on:** October 22, 2013, 10:13:41 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you EVER answer ANY question EVER - even only just one time?

You are a lost cause if you need defined canons taught to you in such a way that they are made to teach what they do not say.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #80 on:** October 22, 2013, 11:29:53 AM »

If approved and properly trained theologians racked their brains over the technicalities of these issues, who are we to proclaim de fide anything other than what the Church has defined. Namely, that there is no salvation outside the Church and that non-members of that Church can be saved. Anything else is a trap of the Devil to get us to fight each other instead of uniting to convert the world so we do not have to worry if they are members of that Church, inside that Church, joined to that Church, part of the soul of the Church, etc. or not.

Stubborn · « **Reply #81 on:** October 22, 2013, 11:46:16 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you EVER answer ANY question EVER - even only just one time?

You are a lost cause if you need defined canons taught to you in such a way that they are made to teach what they do not say.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you reply with an answer to my question or not?

Stubborn · « **Reply #82 on:** October 22, 2013, 11:50:08 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

If approved and properly trained theologians racked their brains over the technicalities of these issues, who are we to proclaim de fide anything other than what the Church has defined. Namely, that there is no salvation outside the Church and that non-members of that Church can be saved. Anything else is a trap of the Devil to get us to fight each other instead of uniting to convert the world so we do not have to worry if they are members of that Church, inside that Church, joined to that Church, part of the soul of the Church, etc. or not.

Non members of that Church can be saved? As I said, NO thinking through and through.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #83 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:24:16 PM »

Any of my own writing could be erroneous or could explain a truth in a faulty manner, but this is less likely when coming from the greatest theologian of the 20th Century, Fr. Joseph Clifford Fenton, S.T.D.:

Quote

"The recent Encyclical Mystici Corporis has naturally aroused a great deal of interest in the teaching about Christ's Mystical Body. One curious by-product of that interest has been the frequently repeated assertion that the school theology since the Middle Ages has in some way neglected to consider the Church as the Body of Jesus Christ. That is a serious charge. It deserves attention.

Does anyone disagree with the above statement?

SJB · « **Reply #84 on:** October 22, 2013, 12:44:04 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you EVER answer ANY question EVER - even only just one time?

You are a lost cause if you need defined canons taught to you in such a way that they are made to teach what they do not say.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you reply with an answer to my question or not?

I'm asking YOU where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for YOU, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way YOU believe them to be.

You have no source for your beliefs because they are not Catholic beliefs.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #85 on:** October 22, 2013, 02:21:57 PM »

Quote

"The implication seems to be that the writers of theological works used in seminaries and universities since the Middle Ages have failed to bring out the truths presented in the dogmatic portion of the Mystici Corporis. If the accusation has any legitimate foundation then the Encyclical should contain a teaching utterly alien to the literature of school theology from the middle fifteenth century until at least the beginning of the twentieth. The analysis of the Mystici Corporis text will show whether the charge is justified or not.

Fenton

Is Fenton's assessment correct?

Stubborn · « **Reply #86 on:** October 22, 2013, 04:15:49 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you EVER answer ANY question EVER - even only just one time?

You are a lost cause if you need defined canons taught to you in such a way that they are made to teach what they do not say.

I'm asking you where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for you, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way you believe them to be.

Will you reply with an answer to my question or not?

I'm asking YOU where you learned what you believe. It should be easy for YOU, but it isn't simply because NOBODY explains things the way YOU believe them to be.

You have no source for your beliefs because they are not Catholic beliefs.

Why do you say NOBODY explains things the way I believe them? - The Fathers of the Council of Trent is the source - they explain them the way they were meant to be understood, which is why I believe them, I mean honestly, they could not teach any clearer.
You do not agree with Trent's explicit teaching so you strive to weasel out of it every possible way that you can - which is why you refuse to answer the speculative question I asked.

SJB · « **Reply #87 on:** October 22, 2013, 04:23:33 PM »

Quote from: stubborn

Why do you say NOBODY explains things the way I believe them? - The Fathers of the Council of Trent is the source - they explain them the way they were meant to be understood, which is why I believe them, I mean honestly, they could not teach any clearer.
You do not agree with Trent's explicit teaching so you strive to weasel out of it every possible way that you can - which is why you refuse to answer the speculative question I asked.

Show us an explanation that isn't just you repeating the canons.

Stubborn · « **Reply #88 on:** October 22, 2013, 04:56:51 PM »

Answer the question.

SJB · « **Reply #89 on:** October 22, 2013, 05:02:41 PM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Answer the question.

You don't have a real question; I do. I know you can't answer, because you are all alone in your opinion.