Author Topic: How can you defend the salvation dogma with... (Read 7190 times)

SJB · « **Reply #60 on:** October 21, 2013, 02:07:17 PM »

Quote from: bowler

You didn't answer my only question:

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Please explain to me just one thing, what exactly do I have to do to set you up so that your postings do not appear to me? How do I set up the ignore feature?

My posts are not intended for you (to read and have any effect, at least.) It would be presumptious of me to think I could penetrate your "logic."

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #61 on:** October 21, 2013, 02:21:43 PM »

"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."

These words were spoken by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Yet some untrained laypeople and partially trained laypeople and therefore dangerous laypeople dare to oppose what sainted Doctors have taught, claiming it is de fide that there is no such thing as baptism of blood and baptism of desire? It is one thing to admit you are confused on the issue or to admit you are not sure about the teaching. But quite another to insist that those who agree with the Sainted Fathers, Doctors and Popes on the issue, but disagree with you are not Catholic and going to Hell.

Stubborn · « **Reply #62 on:** October 21, 2013, 03:14:29 PM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."

These words were spoken by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Yet some untrained laypeople and partially trained laypeople and therefore dangerous laypeople dare to oppose what sainted Doctors have taught, claiming it is de fide that there is no such thing as baptism of blood and baptism of desire? It is one thing to admit you are confused on the issue or to admit you are not sure about the teaching. But quite another to insist that those who agree with the Sainted Fathers, Doctors and Popes on the issue, but disagree with you are not Catholic and going to Hell.

For curiosity sake, what do you think St. Thomas would've said, keeping in mind his words: If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." if he were to have learned that 275 years after his death of the Council of Trent infallibly teaching:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Would he insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

Jehanne · « **Reply #63 on:** October 21, 2013, 07:14:46 PM »

Saint Thomas taught implicit faith, even for those who lived after the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

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No man ever had the grace of the Holy Ghost except through faith in Christ either explicit or implicit: and by faith in Christ man belongs to the New Testament. Consequently whoever had the law of grace instilled into them belonged to the New Testament. (Summa Theologica, Ia IIae, q.106, a.1, ad 3)

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It is impossible to believe explicitly in the mystery of Christ, without faith in the Trinity, since the mystery of Christ includes that the Son of God took flesh; that He renewed the world through the grace of the Holy Ghost; and again, that He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Wherefore just as, before Christ, the mystery of Christ was believed explicitly by the learned, but implicitly and under a veil, so to speak, by the simple, so too was it with the mystery of the Trinity. And consequently, when once grace had been revealed, all were bound to explicit faith in the mystery of the Trinity: and all who are born again in Christ, have this bestowed on them by the invocation of the Trinity, according to Mat. 28:19: “Going therefore teach ye all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost.” (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.2, a.8)

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Many of the gentiles received revelations of Christ, as is clear from their predictions. Thus we read (Job 19:25): “I know that my Redeemer liveth.” The Sibyl too foretold certain things about Christ, as Augustine states (Contra Faust. xiii, 15). Moreover, we read in the history of the Romans, that at the time of Constantine Augustus and his mother Irene a tomb was discovered, wherein lay a man on whose breast was a golden plate with the inscription: “Christ shall be born of a virgin, and in Him, I believe. O sun, during the lifetime of Irene and Constantine, thou shalt see me again”. If, however, some were saved without receiving any revelation, they were not saved without faith in a Mediator, for, though they did not believe in Him explicitly, they did, nevertheless, have implicit faith through believing in Divine providence, since they believed that God would deliver mankind in whatever way was pleasing to Him, and according to the revelation of the Spirit to those who knew the truth, as stated in Job 35:11: “Who teacheth us more than the beasts of the earth.” (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.2, a.7, ad 3)

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Unbelief does not so wholly destroy natural reason in unbelievers, but that some knowledge of the truth remains in them, whereby they are able to do deeds that are generically good. With regard, however, to Cornelius, it is to be observed that he was not an unbeliever, else his works would not have been acceptable to God, whom none can please without faith. Now he had implicit faith, as the truth of the Gospel was not yet made manifest: hence Peter was sent to him to give him fuller instruction in the faith. (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.10, a.4, ad 3)

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Though all do not know explicitly the power of the sacrifices, they know it implicitly, even as they have implicit faith, as stated above (q. 2, AA 6,7). (Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.85 a.4, ad 2)

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Ambrose here gives this reason why exception could, without inconsistency, be allowed in the primitive Church; namely, because the whole Trinity is implied in the name of Christ, and therefore the form prescribed by Christ in the Gospel was observed in its integrity, at least implicitly. (Summa Theologica, IIIa, q.66, a.6, ad 2)

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #64 on:** October 22, 2013, 05:28:51 AM »

God left us a treasury of graces which can be applied to non-members of the Church and help bring them to salvation through conversion or through being attached to the Church at the moment of death. It is quite humbling to consider how just one Ave uttered from our lips, or indulgence applied for a soul who is not a member of the Church, or a soul of God's choice, can be enough to be the difference between its salvation and damnation. You and I can be the difference between whether one is faithfully departed or not. We all should pray for the gift of perseverance and for a happy death.

Conspiracy_Factist · « **Reply #65 on:** October 22, 2013, 06:13:21 AM »

Quote from: Lover of Truth

God left us a treasury of graces which can be applied to non-members of the Church and help bring them to salvation through conversion or through being attached to the Church at the moment of death. It is quite humbling to consider how just one Ave uttered from our lips, or indulgence applied for a soul who is not a member of the Church, or a soul of God's choice, can be enough to be the difference between its salvation and damnation. You and I can be the difference between whether one is faithfully departed or not. We all should pray for the gift of perseverance and for a happy death.

can you give me an example of what happens in detail here " being attached to the Church at the moment of death"
would this involve baptism? any creeds to believe in..if it's at the moment of death and the non believer is incapacitated in some way is there any chance he can truly convert and make it to heaven?

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #66 on:** October 22, 2013, 07:45:44 AM »

As we know, some things will be accomplished whether we pray for it or not. Others won't be accomplished no matter how much we pray for it.

The third category is that some things won't be accomplished apart from our prayers. That one Ave from an individual's lips can be what leads a soul to have the proper disposition at death to die in a state of sanctifying grace. No prayer is wasted but some of our prayers will benefit the mystical body of Christ in a way that is different than what we are asking. One might ask that his leg heal, another that his dog stop biting him, another still that the media will go away, but these prayers if not in conformity to God's will, will be applied by God to where they will be best utilized; such as to the benefit of a soul in Purgatory or to one on their death bed. We will have no idea what a difference our prayers have made until we reach our end.

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"Yet this, also, must be held, marvelous though it may seem: Christ has need of His members. First, because the person of Jesus Christ is represented by the Supreme Pontiff, who in turn must call on others to share much of his solicitude lest he be overwhelmed by the burden of his pastoral office, and must be helped daily by the prayers of the Church. Moreover as our Savior does not rule the Church directly in a visible manner, He wills to be helped by the members of His Body in carrying out the work of redemption. That is not because He is indigent and weak, but rather because He has so willed it for the greater glory of His spotless Spouse. Dying on the Cross He left to His Church the immense treasury of the Redemption, towards which she contributed nothing. But when those graces come to be distributed, not only does He share this work of sanctification with His Church, but He wills that in some way it be due to her action. This is a deep mystery, and an inexhaustible subject of meditation, that the salvation of many depends on the prayers and voluntary penances which the members of the Mystical Body of Jesus Christ offer for this intention and on the cooperation of pastors of souls and of the faithful, especially of fathers and mothers of families, a cooperation which they must offer to our Divine Savior as though they were His associates."

(Mystici Corporis, Pope Pius XII)

SJB · « **Reply #67 on:** October 22, 2013, 07:56:00 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Lover of Truth
"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."

These words were spoken by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Yet some untrained laypeople and partially trained laypeople and therefore dangerous laypeople dare to oppose what sainted Doctors have taught, claiming it is de fide that there is no such thing as baptism of blood and baptism of desire? It is one thing to admit you are confused on the issue or to admit you are not sure about the teaching. But quite another to insist that those who agree with the Sainted Fathers, Doctors and Popes on the issue, but disagree with you are not Catholic and going to Hell.

For curiosity sake, what do you think St. Thomas would've said, keeping in mind his words: If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." if he were to have learned that 275 years after his death of the Council of Trent infallibly teaching:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Would he insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

Of course these canons can and has been misunderstood by YOU. Again, show us an EXPLANATION of THESE canons by an approved teacher in the Church that matches your distorted lonely view.

Stubborn · « **Reply #68 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:12:37 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Lover of Truth
"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."

These words were spoken by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Yet some untrained laypeople and partially trained laypeople and therefore dangerous laypeople dare to oppose what sainted Doctors have taught, claiming it is de fide that there is no such thing as baptism of blood and baptism of desire? It is one thing to admit you are confused on the issue or to admit you are not sure about the teaching. But quite another to insist that those who agree with the Sainted Fathers, Doctors and Popes on the issue, but disagree with you are not Catholic and going to Hell.

For curiosity sake, what do you think St. Thomas would've said, keeping in mind his words: If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." if he were to have learned that 275 years after his death of the Council of Trent infallibly teaching:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Would he insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

Of course these canons can and has been misunderstood by YOU. Again, show us an EXPLANATION of THESE canons by an approved teacher in the Church that matches your distorted lonely view.

Of course I do not expect YOU to comprehend what explicit definitions dictate we are bound to believe - so why don't you take the wise advise of keeping your ignorant mouth shut until you have something worthwhile to say?

SJB · « **Reply #69 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:19:38 AM »

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Stubborn
Quote from: Lover of Truth
"I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world."

These words were spoken by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Yet some untrained laypeople and partially trained laypeople and therefore dangerous laypeople dare to oppose what sainted Doctors have taught, claiming it is de fide that there is no such thing as baptism of blood and baptism of desire? It is one thing to admit you are confused on the issue or to admit you are not sure about the teaching. But quite another to insist that those who agree with the Sainted Fathers, Doctors and Popes on the issue, but disagree with you are not Catholic and going to Hell.

For curiosity sake, what do you think St. Thomas would've said, keeping in mind his words: If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." if he were to have learned that 275 years after his death of the Council of Trent infallibly teaching:

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Would he insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

Of course these canons can and has been misunderstood by YOU. Again, show us an EXPLANATION of THESE canons by an approved teacher in the Church that matches your distorted lonely view.

Of course I do not expect YOU to comprehend what explicit definitions dictate we are bound to believe - so why don't you take the wise advise of keeping your ignorant mouth shut until you have something worthwhile to say?

Again, show us an EXPLANATION of THESE canons by an approved teacher in the Church that matches your distorted lonely view. If your view is the orthodox one, it ought to be easy for you to answer with some sources that EXPLAIN what you believe.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #70 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:26:04 AM »

Quote from: gooch

Quote from: Lover of Truth
God left us a treasury of graces which can be applied to non-members of the Church and help bring them to salvation through conversion or through being attached to the Church at the moment of death. It is quite humbling to consider how just one Ave uttered from our lips, or indulgence applied for a soul who is not a member of the Church, or a soul of God's choice, can be enough to be the difference between its salvation and damnation. You and I can be the difference between whether one is faithfully departed or not. We all should pray for the gift of perseverance and for a happy death.

can you give me an example of what happens in detail here " being attached to the Church at the moment of death"
would this involve baptism? any creeds to believe in..if it's at the moment of death and the non believer is incapacitated in some way is there any chance he can truly convert and make it to heaven?

A non-member of the Catholic Church/the Mystical Body of Christ, outside of which there is no salvation, and there are no exceptions to this Dogma, can die within the Church in a state of sanctifying grace.

Sanctifying grace cannot be obtained outside the Church but actual graces can. Actual graces nudge the good willed soul toward membership within the Church. If such as soul is on his way to becoming a member of the Church and dies before this actually happens he can be saved within the Church through his attachment to it by desire.

Inculpable ignorance by itself does not save a person. Much more is needed. Desire to be within the Church by itself does not save a person either by itself in combined with inculpable ignorance. Neither inculpable ignorance nor desire saves anyone.

For it to be possible for a non-member to be saved attached to the Church or "within" it one must have an effective desire to enter it. This means that the person believes, with a supernatural faith, that God exists and that He rewards good and evil and at least implicitly believes in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation at a very minimum for salvation to even be possible. No one can be saved without a supernatural Faith. But even this is not enough for a non-member to be saved within the Catholic Church or from him to be brought to safety by the vessel/Church he is attached to.

He must also love God with the love of benevolence. He must love God with the love of supernatural charity above all things and desire to conform to His will.

But not just a loose desire to do God's will. He must actually try his best throughout his life to do God's will.

An example of an ineffective desire by analogy would be if I desired to go to New York. "Boy I sure wish I could go to New York" but do nothing about it.

"Boy I sure hope I'm doing what I should to get to Heaven."

But desiring to get to the right destination by itself is not enough, even if you are not sure where the destination is or how to get there. One can have an effective desire to get to New York even if, through no fault of his own, he does not know where it is or how to get there or even the name of the place where he wants to be if he starts asking people, "where is 'the big city' and how do I get there?

"I need to get on a plane? How do I do this? Tickets? Where can I get them? How much do they cost? I don't have any money. Do you know where I can get a job?"

"How do I get to Heaven? I have die within the Church? Which Church? The Catholic Church? Why the Catholic Church? Because God founded it? How did He found it? Etc. She teaches I can't have sex outside of marriage or use conception prevention?"

Here the good willed are separated from the bad willed:

Either:
"Oh boy! The Catholic Church can't be right"

Or:
"Okay, if it is God's will I will comply." "How do I become a member?" "I need to get baptized? Okay, let's do it. I have to learn catechism first? When can I start?"

You can see the difference between an ineffective desire and an effective desire here can't you?

Did you see in the above example where he could have become willfully blind or ignorant and been damned for that culpable ignorance?

Now if our good willed person dies on any step of the journey in a state of sanctifying grace he dies within the Church and goes to Heaven, probably after some Purgatory time unless he is martyred for the Faith whereby he will go straight to Heaven.

But this good willed person, and our example must actually be good willed in the eyes of God, our eyes do not matter here, he will, at the very least have a supernatural Faith in God's existence based upon God's own revelation and believe that God rewards good and punishes evil. He will try his best throughout His life to conform to God's will and love God with the love of charity, loving Him above all things and being willing to suffer all rather than to offend Him. So long as he has this effective desire, even if he has mistaken notions of what God's will actually is, and so long as he tries his best to do God's will he is on the road to salvation.

Each and every human being in existence is either in the Kingdom of God or the Kingdom of Satan. There is no other place for them to be located.

Those who have an aversion to God by willing something or loving something more than God are in the Kingdom of Satan, whether they realize it or not, and if they die in that state will surely be damned.

Those who have a supernatural faith and a perfect charity and will to do God's will and try their best to do God's will throughout their life can only accomplish such things while in a state of sanctifying grace. It is impossible to love God with the love of charity and to continue to try your best to do His will for an extended period of time without being in a state of sanctifying grace according to Saint Thomas and others. And one cannot be in a state of sanctifying grace while being outside the Church. But as we have seen non-members of the Church can be attached to that Church or theologically "within" her so long as all the other prerequisites are present.

Maybe some get into Heaven after only working one hour same as those who worked twelve. But those of us who worked twelve should not complain about it. God will have mercy on whom He has mercy.

God does not give a person the actual graces needed to join the Church without giving such a person the ability and means to accomplish that goal. God does not cut down the good willed and damn him through no fault of his own even as he was trying his best to do God’s will and was on a journey that would have led to formal membership in the Church were he allowed to continue. God is perfectly merciful and perfectly just. He is not an arbitrary tyrant who excludes the heart and only looks at the letter. “No water Baptism, too bad for you.” The good willed are not damned any more than the bad willed are saved. It comes down to the heart, supernatural faith and charity which encompasses willing to do God's will, whatever it is and trying your best to do it and preferring to suffer anything rather than to offend Him. God will not damn such a person anymore than he will save one who goes to daily Mass, prays 15 decades of the Rosary daily but dies in a state of mortal sin.

Does any of this seem plausible?

Stubborn · « **Reply #71 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:29:32 AM »

Just this once, why don't you answer your own question by actually answering my question just this one time? Just this one time or is that asking too much from you?

Would St. Thomas insist that the canons do not mean what they say and appeal to the teachings of St. Ambrose(?) to explain their "real" meanings - or would he "submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church" and in obedience accept the defined doctrine without exception?

CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.
CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.
CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is optional, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

JPaul · « **Reply #72 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:30:29 AM »

It is near impossible to defend the Dogma of Salvation in this age of sentimental theology. All of these good persons and ignorant natives now possess the abilities to exhibit supernatural virtues without Baptism or Faith.

It is we who have these things who must fear for our end. We who hold these uncharitable beliefs.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #73 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:51:56 AM »

Quote from: J.Paul

It is near impossible to defend the Dogma of Salvation in this age of sentimental theology. All of these good persons and ignorant natives now possess the abilities to exhibit supernatural virtues without Baptism or Faith.

It is we who have these things who must fear for our end. We who hold these uncharitable beliefs.

I present objective facts alone. You can do with them as you will.

Lover of Truth · « **Reply #74 on:** October 22, 2013, 08:53:47 AM »

God saves all through the Roman Catholic Church. Sanctifying grace comes to all who obtain it through the Roman Catholic Church, through the offering of Mass and as a result of your prayers and mine. Non-members of the Roman Catholic Church can be joined to God through the Roman Catholic Church without realizing it. God knows, and there is no need for the unschooled to speculate, and less need for us to "impose" those speculations on others.