Author Topic: Holy Innocents not Proof of Baptism of Blood  (Read 2098 times)

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Offline Lover of Truth

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Re: Holy Innocents not Proof of Baptism of Blood
« Reply #60 on: September 22, 2017, 10:12:34 AM »
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  • Pope Pius IX (19th century)Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.”

    Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Holy Innocents not Proof of Baptism of Blood
    « Reply #61 on: September 27, 2017, 10:14:54 AM »
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  •  :baby:


    Offline Chesterlab2003

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    Re: Holy Innocents not Proof of Baptism of Blood
    « Reply #62 on: November 03, 2017, 03:39:54 PM »
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  • Was not the thief  crucified with Christ who declared his faith in Him on the cross an example of baptism of desire?. Jesus said to him “today you will be with me in paradise.”

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: Holy Innocents not Proof of Baptism of Blood
    « Reply #63 on: November 04, 2017, 10:01:39 AM »
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  • Quote
    St. John Chrystostome, Church Father and Doctor of the Church (4th Century): Panegyric on St. Lucianus, "Do not be surprised that I should equate martyrdom with baptism; for here too the spirit blows with much fruitfulness, and a marvellous and astonishing remission of sins and cleansing of the soul is effected; and just as those who are baptized by water, so, too, those who suffer martyrdom are cleansed with their own blood."
    Lover of Truth, St. John Chrysostom does not say Baptism of the Spirit alone provides remission original sin. He says remission of sins and cleansing of the soul. This can also take place AFTER WATER BAPTISM. When he says cleansing of the soul, he certainly could have meant cleansing the soul from faults. In fact in his "Instructions to Catechumens" he states plainly in his opening sentence...

    To those about to be illuminated; and for what reason the laver is said to be of regeneration and not of remission of sins

    Later on he says...

    And for what reason, says one, if the laver take away all our sins, is it called, not a laver of remission of sins, nor a laver of cleansing, but a laver of regeneration? Because it does not simply take away our sins, nor simply cleanse us from our faults, but so as if we were born again. For it creates and fashions us anew not forming us again out of earth, but creating us out of another element, namely, of the nature of water. For it does not simply wipe the vessel clean, but entirely remoulds it again.

    In other words he is equating martyrdom with baptism because of their similarities in remitting actual sins and cleansing the soul from faults. NOT that they both can cleanse the soul from original sin and regenerate.


    Quote
    Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles, Homily I: "But why does Christ say, "Ye shall be baptized," when in fact there was no water in the upper room? Because the more essential part of Baptism is the Spirit, through Whom indeed the water has its operation; in the same manner our Lord also is said to be anointed, not that He had ever been anointed with oil, but because He had received the Spirit. Besides, we do in fact find them receiving a baptism with water [and a baptism with the Spirit], and these at different moments. In our case both take place under one act, but then they were divided."
    He says Baptism of the Spirit is more essential, implying that water is less essential. He does not state that water is not at all essential here. When Christ says, "Ye shall be baptized", this does not imply that they were not already baptized with water. In fact Chrysostom explains that back then the Sacrament of Baptism was divided.

    Therefore none of what you posted proves BOB and BOD. In fact, Chrysostom makes a case AGAINST IT.
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.

    Offline Lastdays

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    Re: Holy Innocents not Proof of Baptism of Blood
    « Reply #64 on: November 04, 2017, 10:18:12 AM »
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  • Pope Pius IX (19th century): Quanto Conficiamur Moerore, 1863: “There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, his supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments.
    This just means that God will give a good willed person graces to accept the Gospel and be baptized. This does not prove anything for BOB and BOD.

    Quote
    Singulari Quadam, December 9, 1854: "For, it must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood; but, on the other hand, it is necessary to hold for certain that they who labor in ignorance of the true religion, if this ignorance is invincible, are not stained by any guilt in this matter in the eyes of God."

    They are not guilty for their lack of faith. This doesn't mean they can attain salvation without the Catholic faith. It just means that they can certainly be considered of good will. Those of good will will receive the graces needed to obtain the true faith and enter THE ONLY ARK OF SALVATION as Pope Pius IX said (also see the Athanasian Creed).
    Catholic Encyclopedia – Heresy, 1913: The Pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be Pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church.


     

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