What do you mean by "immediate salvation"?

As is the case regarding the typical opinion for BOD, immediate salvation = when in imminent danger of death.

What do you mean he will "provide it"?

Divine = God
Providence = Provides

God will not deny any necessity for salvation to anyone who is sincere, He absolutely will provide what the person desires.
If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

  Does it not pertain to the 1st Commandment to worship God?  Is not missing Mass a mortal sin that will damn you to hell for all eternity?  Why would God allow a man to miss Mass, nay even positively will it for physical evil is willed by God, if his salvation depended upon it?

FWIW, your particular quote above is no argument to me. The reason is very simple. I have had the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass handed to me on a silver platter nearly my whole life through no merit of my own. Without fail, God Provides what we need as long as we seek it sincerely.  

  On top of that, have you ever made a Spiritual Communion?  How can you explain the fact that one can receive the effects of Holy Communion without physically receiving the Sacrament?

Yes, I've made Spiritual Communions whenever I couldn't make it to Mass - but making a Spiritual Communion before death would not save my soul if I died and had mortal sin on my soul.

Have you any notion of perfect contrition coupled with at least an implicit desire for the Sacrament of Penance which forgives sin as if one had received the Sacrament itself?

Don't forget that I am a Catholic, I have been to confession many, many times, I've received the Sacrament of Confirmation, I have the Church, Our Blessed Mother, the saints, Sacramentals and I've assisted at the Holy Sacrifice for 45 years - for many of those years I attended and/or served every day of the week and on and on - - - - I do not know if I can even make a perfect act of Contrition - only God would know - so I will not reward heaven to anyone - especially not to one who has not had the benefits of God's sanctifying sacraments.

The very fact that the Church requires every mortal sin committed to be confessed, whether one is perfectly sorry for it or not, shows the Church has a maternal suspicion of this perfect act of love of God obtaining forgiveness apart from the Sacrament of forgiveness instituted by Christ.

 How do you explain these things in light of your "doctrine of Providence"?  How do you explain the fact that these doctrines have been taught by all theologians for over 1,000 years without ever being censured by the Church?

First off, it is the Church's Doctrine - not mine.

The Doctrine of Divine Providence teaches us that it (Divine Providence) leaves no room for chance or for fate.

That nothing happens in the universe without God willing and allowing it. This statement must he taken absolutely of everything with the exception of sin. 'Nothing occurs by chance in the whole course of our lives' is the unanimous teaching of the Fathers and Doctors of the Church, "and God intervenes everywhere."  Pay special notice to those last three words........"God intervenes everywhere". One could meditate for 1000 years on those last three words alone and never fully comprehend it.

Now, one may perversely believe that God, in His Divine Providence, would ignore one who is sincere and about to die unbaptized, yet grant that person salvation in spite of His law. Seems many saints at one time or another believed that, but what earthly father would leave their child wanting something that was an absolute necessity when the father could effortlessly provide it?

Mat. 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.
8 For every one that asketh, receiveth: and he that seeketh, findeth: and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there among you, of whom if his son shall ask bread, will he reach him a stone?
10 Or if he shall ask a fish, will he reach him a serpent?
11 If you then being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children: how much more will your Father, who is in heaven, give good things to them that ask him?

Our Lord will NEVER deny baptism to one who sincerely desires it. *THAT* is how God provides, *THAT* is how God, like the loving Heavenly Father that He is, proves His infinite love, mercy and justice for us - by providing to us what we need.

None of what you have written negates the Catholic doctrine on baptism of desire.  See my post above.  You have not comprehended my analogy and I do foresee a greater comprehension in the near future.  Only a temerious fool would at once confess filial devotion to Holy Mother Church while simultaneously rejecting one of her doctrines, Stubborn.  

I did see your post above. I replied to it.

This Catholic doctrine on baptism of desire you speak of does not exist - FYI.

Not sure why you display such an abhorrence for Our Lord in His Divine Providence but perhaps you can apply some time to it's study.

To deny Baptism of Desire or Blood results in a cause of influence upon humans to judge those who passed away without water Baptism. We are called not to judge the soul of others.

See, this is interesting because I see it as those who support BOD are the ones doing the judging - they judge as innocent those who die unbaptized as being saved.

OTOH, Our Lord already said that whoever is not baptized will not see the kingdom of God - so I do not understand your thought process here.

Limits God to “time” God is infinity,  Infinite ; He is always in the IS.

You deny His attribute of being  Omnipotent.  What is impossible with men, with God all things are possible.

Here is another point I do not understand. It is no more impossible for God to provide water and a minister than it is for Him to break His own law.........the difference is that when it comes right down to it, BOD forces God to break His own law for no other reason than to break His own law.

I do not deny that He is all Omnipotent, on the contrary..........He proves His Omnipotents for all to see and know when He provides the Sacrament of Baptism visibly - vs the unsubstantiated assumption of the reward of salvation to those who die and are positively not Sacramentally baptized.  
 

Negates His Mercy.

To deny a teaching of the Church also puts one outside the Church.  Which is more tragic, than to be preparing for baptism only to be taken by God prior to the actual act of baptism.  

First, God is infinitely merciful, which is why He instituted all the helps (read: Sacraments) that we need to get to Heaven - in so doing, He provides these means of Salvation to everyone who desires them sincerely, without fail each and every time.

Second, there is no one about to die in the state of justification whom God cannot secure Baptism for, and indeed, Baptism of Water. The schemes concerning salvation, I leave to the sceptics. This is how God provides for those in need. This is Divine Providence.

Third, there are no accidents to God, nor are there any circuмstances that God has not foreseen from all eternity. One who is Just and about to die unbaptized will get the Sacrament before he dies, to deny that truth exemplifies lack of faith in God. God is not bound by His own law, but we are - and we trust that He will provide what we need no matter what - were it any other way, God would be a monster.

IMO, BOD will some day need to be defined or condemned explicitly, until it is defined, there are currently plenty of infallible pronouncements which contradict BOD.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: Caminus

None of what you have written negates the Catholic doctrine on baptism of desire.  See my post above.  You have not comprehended my analogy and I do foresee a greater comprehension in the near future.  Only a temerious fool would at once confess filial devotion to Holy Mother Church while simultaneously rejecting one of her doctrines, Stubborn.  

I did see your post above. I replied to it.

This Catholic doctrine on baptism of desire you speak of does not exist - FYI.

Not sure why you display such an abhorrence for Our Lord in His Divine Providence but perhaps you can apply some time to it's study.

Your position amounts to a mortal sin against the faith in my opinion.  Your concepts are confused and jumbled, you absolutely misunderstand the nature of Providence and see a contrived "contradiction" where none exists.  Catholic doctrine clearly asserts that baptism of desire, or receiving the effects of the Sacrament outside of the actual sacrament in cases of necessity is certainly possible.  No one knows who these people are that receive this form of baptism, but the possibility exists nevertheless.  

There are many undefined doctrines of faith (though many theologians assert that this particular doctrine was defined by Trent).  In this regard, you are acting like a Protestant, picking and choosing doctrines that fit your understanding while denying others.  In your particular case, it is the doctrine of baptism of desire, in another case, it could be some other doctrine.  You are picking and choosing what you will accept while rejecting others.  Your claim to being a long-standing Catholic fails to impress me with such an attitude.  

You haven't made one sound theological argument against this doctrine and you obviously haven't dealt with the authoritiy and tradition which teaches it.  Closing your mind to this fact while pertinaciously clinging to your own opinion is simply dishonest.    

Well how about if you define exactly what BOD is for us - and is BOD a Sacrament?

Wrong!  No one is judging that someone is in Heaven, except the Church when they canonize a Saint.   The average lay person only has hoped their loved one was saved.  People like you actually judge that if someone was not baptized by water they are in Hell, no matter how pious they were during life.

Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he shall not enter the kingdom of Heaven. - Jesus

How am I judging by repeating the words of Our Lord? How is it that you believe God incapable of supplying that which He commanded we need?

Quote

Well how about if you define exactly what BOD is for us - and is BOD a Sacrament?

I've got an even better idea.  Why don't you study the matter for yourself and see what approved Catholic theologians and Fathers teach.

You are stumped - that was too easy lol.......your own arrogance got in your way - try very hard to avoid being that way from now on.

  And you need to drop this sad "Divine providence" argument.  It is precisely because of Providence that this is even possible.  And just as He doesn't "violate" His own law when one receives the effects of other Sacraments by a firm desire, along with other necessary prerequisites, neither does He "violate" His own law regarding this doctrine.  His immutable Law is in fact that when the correct matter, form and intention are present, a Sacrament is infallibly confected, all else being equal.  The fact that He can supply these effects acting outside of these Sacraments by His Divine power doesn't negate that law in the least.  

Well you say it is a fact - but that is false because you cannot substantiate it and the best you can do is prove that it contradicts defined dogma and Divine Providence.

Come back after you graduate from high school.

The question is actually rather easily solved. Since Catholic theologians unanimously teach Baptism of Blood or Desire either as theologically certain, de fide or common consent, we are bound as Catholics to adhere to this doctrine.

If you don´t, then you deny the Universal Ordinary Magisterium of the Church. This would be certainly heretical.

Everything else will be pretty much beyond us, since we are far from being theologians.