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Author Topic: Great article on "Baptism of Desire."  (Read 20880 times)

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Offline Exilenomore

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Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2011, 02:40:17 PM »
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  • Probably because they are the main proponents of the error which denies salvation through desire for baptism, when one dies before being able to receive the latter. If that error were true, then the fathers would not have let catechumens wait for baptism in order to instruct them in the faith first, especially when there was a great chance of being martyred in those times. They would have baptised them immediately, in the way it must be done to infants. It is common sense really.

    Offline s2srea

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #16 on: June 16, 2011, 03:41:25 PM »
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  • Do you think the Diamonds ever feel/ felt like they're in too deep with their ridiculous remarks that they couldn't (wouldn't) go back? I do...


    Offline Raoul76

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #17 on: June 16, 2011, 04:01:58 PM »
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  • Absolutely, S2srea.  

    That is how the devil snares people.  They haven't just posted their theories on a message board, they have turned it into a cottage industry -- their virtual identity.  No anti-BoD, no Dimond Bros.  Their livelihood is also based on what they're doing, selling books, probably asking for donations.

    I say nothing about the Dimonds specifically, but not only will people sell their souls for power; they will sell their souls for imagined power, power they don't really even have, or for the chance at power.  It can become an addiction to be talked about, to be noticed, even if you're being noticed for the wrong thing.

    There is a reason certain saints would flee from the priesthood and would try to escape and go wash dishes or something.  Look at how many priests went along with Vatican II, who didn't buck the tide at all.  You have to be ready at all times to walk away and leave everything if your faith is compromised.

    Some people are made famous by God; others make themselves famous.  He knows who He is raising up.  But sometimes to us it can be tricky to figure out who is a sham and who is truly called.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline parentsfortruth

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #18 on: June 16, 2011, 05:38:00 PM »
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  • I wanted to know what people thought about the article, not about the dogmatic lame-os named the Dimond "brothers."

    Here's from the article as far as the catechumens goes. Check it out:

    What Saint Augustine expressed about baptism of desire in his treatise against the Donatists was not his conviction when he wrote his commentary on the Gospel of Saint John. Therein, he states that “no matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized.” (Chapter 13, Tract 7) Again, Father van der Meer, in his book, Augustine the Bishop, cites a like passage from the doctor: “How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized and are lost forever” (Page 150). Note here that Augustine was not referring to hesitant catechumens who presumptuously put off their baptism, but to “sincere catechumens.”
    Matthew 5:37

    But let your speech be yea, yea: no, no: and that which is over and above these, is of evil.

    My Avatar is Fr. Hector Bolduc. He was a faithful parish priest in De Pere, WI,

    Offline Darcy

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #19 on: June 16, 2011, 07:41:44 PM »
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  • Quote

    “How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized and are lost forever”  


    What was the context in which St. Augustine wrote this sentence?
    Is it from the Summa Theologica? If so it should be online somewhere.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #20 on: June 16, 2011, 08:05:32 PM »
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  • St. Thomas wrote the Summa, Darcy.

    As far as St. Augustine goes, he lived in the 5th century.  What people need to understand is that he is not the last word, anymore than St. Bernard was the last word on the Immaculate Conception ( which he denied ).

    I urge everyone to study the concept of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.  When a majority of bishops and theologians all agree on a certain point, it could be said to have become a dogma of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.  That is my understanding of it at the moment.

    It is undeniable that the concept of invincible ignorance is taught by all theologians of the last three hundred years, or almost all.  If that isn't enough, Pius IX mentioned it in two encyclicals!  While it may have been possible for St. Augustine to have doubts, that possibility has disappeared.  As for baptism of desire, that has been taught by almost everybody since St. Thomas.  Even at my most prideful I never questioned baptism of desire.  I honestly don't know how anyone can get to that point -- it's a little scary.  To go against St. Thomas AND St. Alphonsus AND every other theologian of the last thousand years whsoe name has come down to us?  

    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Caminus

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #21 on: June 16, 2011, 09:20:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: parentsfortruth
    I wanted to know what people thought about the article, not about the dogmatic lame-os named the Dimond "brothers."

    Here's from the article as far as the catechumens goes. Check it out:

    What Saint Augustine expressed about baptism of desire in his treatise against the Donatists was not his conviction when he wrote his commentary on the Gospel of Saint John. Therein, he states that “no matter what progress a catechumen may make, he still carries the burden of iniquity, and it is not taken away until he has been baptized.” (Chapter 13, Tract 7) Again, Father van der Meer, in his book, Augustine the Bishop, cites a like passage from the doctor: “How many rascals are saved by being baptized on their deathbeds? And how many sincere catechumens die unbaptized and are lost forever” (Page 150). Note here that Augustine was not referring to hesitant catechumens who presumptuously put off their baptism, but to “sincere catechumens.”


    Here's the full citation from Augustine's Commentary on St. John:

    "But some one will say, “It were enough, then, that John baptized only the Lord; what need was there for others to be baptized by John?” Now we have said this too, that if John had baptized only the Lord, men would not be without this thought, that John had a better baptism than the Lord had. They would say, in fact, “So great was the baptism of John, that Christ alone was worthy to be baptized therewith.” Therefore, to show that the baptism which the Lord was to give was better than that of John,— that the one might be understood as that of a servant, the other as that of the Lord,— the Lord was baptized to give an example of humility; but He was not the only one baptized by John, lest John's baptism should appear to be better than the baptism of the Lord. To this end, however, our Lord Jesus Christ showed the way, as you have heard, brethren, lest any man, arrogating to himself that he has abundance of some particular grace, should disdain to be baptized with the baptism of the Lord. For whatever the catechumen's proficiency, he still carries the load of his iniquity: it is not forgiven him until he shall have come to baptism. Just as the people Israel were not rid of the Egyptians until they had come to the Red Sea, so no man is rid of the pressure of sins until he has come to the font of baptism." (13,7)

    It is Catholic dogma that sins are forgiven by the laver of regeneration.  Baptism of desire doesn't negate this truth at all.  Therefore, to speak objectively saying, "You must be baptized for the forgiveness of sins" the very things the Catechumen's are working towards is a perfectly true and objective statement.  To infer from this that it is impossible for the grace of Baptism to be received outside of the actual Sacrament in an exigent circuмstance is fallacious.  The immediate context shows that he is warning Catechumens not to be presumptuous in claiming they have received an abundance of "some particular grace" as if to render the reception of Baptism optional.  

    Augustine can be easily harmonized when one does not have a preconceived agenda before reading his works.  Part of St. Thomas' mastery of the Fathers was this very gift of reconciling certain apparently conflicting statements.  

    Offline Darcy

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #22 on: June 16, 2011, 10:48:55 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    St. Thomas wrote the Summa, Darcy.

    As far as St. Augustine goes, he lived in the 5th century.  What people need to understand is that he is not the last word, anymore than St. Bernard was the last word on the Immaculate Conception ( which he denied ).

    I urge everyone to study the concept of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.  When a majority of bishops and theologians all agree on a certain point, it could be said to have become a dogma of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.  That is my understanding of it at the moment.

    It is undeniable that the concept of invincible ignorance is taught by all theologians of the last three hundred years, or almost all.  If that isn't enough, Pius IX mentioned it in two encyclicals!  While it may have been possible for St. Augustine to have doubts, that possibility has disappeared.  As for baptism of desire, that has been taught by almost everybody since St. Thomas.  Even at my most prideful I never questioned baptism of desire.  I honestly don't know how anyone can get to that point -- it's a little scary.  To go against St. Thomas AND St. Alphonsus AND every other theologian of the last thousand years whsoe name has come down to us?  



    Thanks, that's helpful. It will take awhile to hear/read things several times till it sinks in.  :stare:

    sorta like grad school except its not linear or organized....yet.

    It seems that one can find some support for it or against with either Doctor of the Church. But it gets really nit-pickin'. To the point of vanity.

    This is the Pope's job.  :wink:

    I should stop embarrassing myself and just resign.

     :farmer:

    I'm going to say prayers and go to sleep. The Lord Bless and keep you.


    Offline s2srea

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #23 on: June 16, 2011, 11:05:52 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76

    Some people are made famous by God; others make themselves famous.  He knows who He is raising up.  But sometimes to us it can be tricky to figure out who is a sham and who is truly called.


    I agree with you Raoul. There seems to be something beautiful and humbling about those saints who fled popularity, whilst being open to God's will and find themselves in positions of great and holy influence.

    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #24 on: June 16, 2011, 11:23:59 PM »
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  • Quote from: Darcy
    I feel very confused, majority of the time.


    You're not the only one! I too am so perplexed by this controversy, not necessarily because of the present-day polemics, but because it entails the two great mysteries that have perplexed theologians throughout the ages and the misunderstanding of which has led to many horrible errors and heresies: the great mysteries of grace and predestination.

    I recommend Rev. Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange's work Predestination. It sheds so much light upon this question. It has been reprinted by TAN Publications, but was originally published by the Herder Book Company sometime in the earlier half of the last century.

    He is the best theologian who wrote after the Vatican Council [uh, the one convoked by Pope Pius IX], in my humble opinion.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #25 on: June 16, 2011, 11:34:47 PM »
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  • Quote
    He is the best theologian who wrote after the Vatican Council [uh, the one convoked by Pope Pius IX], in my humble opinion.


    Better than Tanquerey?  I think Tanquerey is in the St. Thomas / St. Alphonsus category.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Hobbledehoy

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #26 on: June 16, 2011, 11:39:14 PM »
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  • Quote from: Raoul76
    Better than Tanquerey?


    It's just my opinion, though I have to be honest and admit that I have a prejudice in favor of the Dominicans.

    Rev. Fr. Tanquerey was a great theologian and to be recommended to all clerics and layfolk.

    My favorite shall ever be Rev. Fr. Reginald, however.
    Please ignore all that I have written regarding sedevacantism.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #27 on: June 16, 2011, 11:41:31 PM »
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  • I think Tanquerey helped me get over my scruple about invincible ignorance ( though it was mostly St. Vincent de Paul, hence he is my confirmation saint and my avatar, as I ascribe to him the change in my personality from my two stints on CathInfo ).  I just had a hard time believing that Tanquerey could be dangerously wrong about anything.  The calm and wisdom practically leap off the pages of the book I have by him, The Spiritual Life.  It is so 19th century in a good way -- carved in stone, impossibly high-minded and noble, encouraging you to the highest standards.  You don't just perceive intellectual power when you read Tanquerey, but grace and peace of mind.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #28 on: June 16, 2011, 11:44:11 PM »
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  • I have a prejudice in favor of the Dominicans also.  I didn't know Garrigou-Lagrange was a Dominican.  Anyway, there are exceptions to every rule!

    Someone told me that Mary once told someone that St. Dominic would have made a better husband for her than St. Joseph, ha ha.  I wonder if that's true.  St. Dominic is Spanish so of course I am going to favor him.  Also he was an Inquisitor --  you don't get many Inquisitors who founded their own Holy Order and also got to introduce the Rosary to the world.  Talk about a signal favor.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Caminus

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    Great article on "Baptism of Desire."
    « Reply #29 on: June 17, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »
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  • In order of excellence:  1. Garrigou-Lagrange  2. Tanquerey (except a quibble with his description of membership in the Church)  3. Msgr. Joseph Fenton (who almost single-handedly refuted false ecclesiology for over a decade in the pages of A.E.R.)