Author Topic: Great article on "Baptism of Desire." (Read 20749 times)

ServusSpiritusSancti · « **Reply #225 on:** July 10, 2011, 04:58:08 PM »

I disagree with Stubborn regarding BoD.

Nonno · « **Reply #226 on:** July 10, 2011, 06:34:43 PM »

Quote from: Nonno

You just betrayed yourself, Stubborn. I know your answer (and mine) is NO. Which means that you believe an "unforeseen accident" is a mirage (a delusion). So, you are saying the Roman Catechism taught a delusion regarding baptism.

My answer was right there, "NO". Now, why are you criticizing the catechism for suggesting an "unforeseen accident" that "deprives" a man of baptism?

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #227 on:** July 10, 2011, 09:13:20 PM »

Quote from: trad123

I've identified the second citation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=ZSfPpo50c9YC&pg=PR11&lpg=PR11&dq=augustine+De+Lib.+Arb.&source=bl&ots=QxmdTXmuFF&sig=0bVfkPAq4AUl_NxeBzH0XzsGNlM&hl=en&ei=B18XTuvlBuTKiAKyx-HSBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CBgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=augustine%20De%20Lib.%20Arb.&f=false

De natura et gratia

I confirmed the source. It's from something called De Migne's "Patroligis Latina," in case you were interested. It helps to actually ask the author of the article if you had any questions. He is happy to answer.

Also, an aside: The SSPX, when citing the opposing view, has actually cited this same source. So, if it's good for the goose, it's good for the gander.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #228 on:** July 11, 2011, 02:50:31 PM »

I'm sure most of you know who Michael Hoffman is. He uses these same references when talking about this issue, and these quotes are from source material.

This one "Aug. de Nat. et grat. 7. 7 is from the saint's work On Nature
and Grace against Pelagius, written in 415. So that was correct.

The others "de Nat. et Orig. an" and the ibid, cited as a reference by
Hoffman, must be from a work of Augustine's On Nature and Original Sin. He is citing Hoffman as the authority, who cites what he has from Saint Augustine, giving these abbreviated Latin references.

Let me know if you need anything else regarding this.

Stubborn · « **Reply #229 on:** July 11, 2011, 05:04:01 PM »

Quote from: Nonno

Quote from: Nonno
You just betrayed yourself, Stubborn. I know your answer (and mine) is NO. Which means that you believe an "unforeseen accident" is a mirage (a delusion). So, you are saying the Roman Catechism taught a delusion regarding baptism.

My answer was right there, "NO". Now, why are you criticizing the catechism for suggesting an "unforeseen accident" that "deprives" a man of baptism?

Perhaps indirectly I am criticizing the catechism - but after all, it is obsolete........it's been revised into extinction umpteen times since it was published and replaced at least as many times - so it's not like I am the only one who ever criticized it - far from it. This fact also serves to prove that catechisms, including Trent's catechism are fallible.

If you read the introduction, Pope St. Pius V even states the fact that the Catechism is not infallible.

You say your answer is "no" - so you believe there is no such thing as an accident with God - unforeseen or otherwise - yet you adhere to those who die "unexpectedly" via the "unforeseen accident" as a support for BOD - interesting.

As I have mentioned in an earlier post, personally - I want to believe in BOD but as of yet, I have not found one single thing in Scripture or Dogma that agrees with BOD.................I have found only teachings contrary to BOD.

Like you and others who adhere to the belief in BOD, I too have found Doctors of the Church and learned theologians - even popes who appear to espouse belief in BOD - but there is not so much as even one mention of BOD in any de fide (binding) Church teachings - only teachings to the contrary. As such, I personally believe BOD needs to be explicitly condemned or defined, infallibly.

As I already posted, Our Lord comes for each and every one of us "like a thief in the night". Our Lord conceals the time of our demise for a reason..........namely, because if we knew when we were going to die, we could/would sin like crazy till our last hour, then run to confession before we die. . . . . . not that that would work - but the theory behind BOD is along the same lines - - - IMO.

Also IMO, BOD = salvation outside the Church. If I am wrong, please prove it using de fide teachings. Those folks who use St. Alphonsus‘ teachings blind themselves to all other teachings of the Church - - - - far as I know, his teachings on morals in his book "Moral Theology" have been declared error free, BUT NOT his teachings on the faith.

If all else fails, consider the Novus Ordo and how error filled it is - - - -one of it's most treasured and defended teachings is salvation via desire.

ajpirc · « **Reply #230 on:** July 14, 2011, 02:10:05 PM »

What are the purposes of BOD/BOD if the Sacrament of water Baptism is necessary for salvation?

Council of Trent:

Quote

If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ" " Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit: ( John 3:5) are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.

Here is the definition of Baptism of Desire from the Catholic Concise Encyclopedia saying that BOD is not a Sacrament of Baptism:

Quote

In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith], and the simultaneous desire for Baptism. It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains.

Sorry if this has already been answered: I haven't been following the discussion.

LordPhan · « **Reply #231 on:** July 14, 2011, 09:33:16 PM »

Quote from: ajpirc

What are the purposes of BOD/BOD if the Sacrament of water Baptism is necessary for salvation?

Council of Trent:

Quote
If anyone shall say that real and natural water is not necessary for baptism, and on that account those words of our Lord Jesus Christ" " Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit: ( John 3:5) are distorted into some metaphor: let him be anathema.

Here is the definition of Baptism of Desire from the Catholic Concise Encyclopedia saying that BOD is not a Sacrament of Baptism:

Quote
In its proper meaning, this consists of an act of perfect contrition or perfect love [that is Charity, which necessarily implies that one has the True Faith], and the simultaneous desire for Baptism. It does not imprint an indelible character on the soul and the obligation to receive Baptism by water remains.

Sorry if this has already been answered: I haven't been following the discussion.

It's another extraordinary circuмstance, wherein God may allow you to join his church even when it's not possible to do so formally.

Lets say you are on a boat, the boat shipwrecks. You find a Bible and a Catetchism, you having noone to talk to, read these every day and decide you want to join the catholic church and get salvation but there is no Priest. So you'd make a perfect act of contrition and have a desire to join God's church.

Now splinter this into two further sceneario's. 1: You die, God may allow you into heaven. 2: You are rescued, you are now REQUIRED to be Baptised the ordinary way.

Kinda like General Absolution, it is valid before a Battle for a Priest to give general absolution and everyone make an act of contrition, however those that live still have to go to confession.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #232 on:** July 31, 2011, 08:24:20 AM »

Bumping for the sake of people that want to continue harping about this issue.

parentsfortruth · « **Reply #233 on:** January 11, 2012, 12:39:53 PM »

Bumping for relevance. This guy has a challenge out there that those of you that like to use the term "feenyite." If you really think you have the proof, go show him and start up a debate with him over email. He answers promptly.

http://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

Roman Catholic · « **Reply #234 on:** January 11, 2012, 03:00:10 PM »

Quote from: parentsfortruth

Bumping for relevance. This guy has a challenge out there that those of you that like to use the term "feenyite." If you really think you have the proof, go show him and start up a debate with him over email. He answers promptly.

http://catholicism.org/baptism-of-desire-its-origin-and-abandonment-in-the-thought-of-saint-augustine.html

About Brian Kelly

Brian Kelly has been the editor-in-chief of From the Housetops magazine and Saint Benedict Center’s monthly Mancipia newsletter since January 2006.

Prompted by his valiant mother’s insistence, he first visited Saint Benedict Center in Still River, Massachusetts, in the summer of 1973, where he met Father Feeney and the philosopher who was to be his mentor ever since, Brother Francis Maluf, M.I.C.M.

Gregory I · « **Reply #235 on:** January 12, 2012, 01:21:26 AM »

God's will cannot fail. -St. Augustine.

God wills the institution of the sacraments as necessary means of salvation. Obvious.

God wills Man to partake of them. Obvious.

God chooses some to be saved, but not all. Also obvious (COT, Session 6)

Therefore, since God's will cannot fail, he wills the sacraments, and he wills some to be saved, it would seem that all who are saved are to be saved through the sacraments.

For God's will cannot fail. Even in the face of human freedom, it does not fail, for the grace of God is like a victorious delight in the soul; He makes himself beautiful to us so that we will infallibly come to him. I do not say we cannot resist him, we can, we have the ability. But no one whom he has willed to save actually conquers his will; rather, they are willingly conquered by his love and grace.

Please toss stones gently...