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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => The Feeneyism Ghetto => Topic started by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 12:34:07 PM

Title: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 12:34:07 PM
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Quote
Even when specifically approved by the pope, decrees of the Holy Office are not infallible. They call for a true assent, internal and sincere, but they do not impose an absolute assent, like the dogmatic definitions given by the pope as infallible teacher of the Faith.

I maintain that the Holy Office letter demands a true internal and sincere assent by good Catholics.  
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 12:48:38 PM
In “The Church Teaches”, the first draft of Vatican I’ constitution on the Church mentions EENS and takes a very similar position to that in Suprema Haec Sacra. In fact, the draft of Vatican I’s constitution takes a less strict view even. Not that the draft has any sort of magisterial weight - it doesn’t - but it does show that the prevailing view even back then was NOT the Feeneyite view.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: DZ PLEASE on September 15, 2017, 12:52:22 PM
There are priests and bishops who believe as LoLies does, so why can't we just get the same jive with better spin from them if we wish?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: DZ PLEASE on September 15, 2017, 12:54:22 PM
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

I maintain that the Holy Office letter demands a true internal and sincere assent by good Catholics.  
Dude totally misses the point of that entry which was at best ambiguous.

Wish I'd never posted it; I KNEW this LIAR would do this, and here we are.
Mea culpa.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 12:56:02 PM
Yes, certainly it requires our assent. It is included in Denzinger.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 12:56:38 PM
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:

I maintain that the Holy Office letter demands a true internal and sincere assent by good Catholics.  

Nope.  It's not part of the authentic Magisterium.

And, there are actual parts of the authentic Magisterium, e.g. "Allocution to Midwives", to which I give a true internal and sincere assent, but with which I respectfully disagree.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 12:57:37 PM
Yes, certainly it requires our assent. It is included in Denzinger.

Denzinger is crap, edited by Karl Rahner, not an official Vatican Magisterial organ.  AAS, now, that's something different.  Rahner put SH in Denzinger precisely because it backs his modernist "Anonymous Christian" theology.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 12:58:27 PM
The docuмent doesn’t get its authority from being published in Denzinger. It gets it from having been issued by the Holy Office, whose head is the Pope.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 12:59:03 PM
I'm sure that LoT's mind is spinning when I say that there are some docuмents to which I assent but with which I disagree.  That's because he doesn't know the meaning of the term religious assent.  LoT thinks that everything in the authentic Magisterium is infallible.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 12:59:28 PM
Denzinger was used throughout the Church and by the Holy Office, of course.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 12:59:52 PM
The docuмent doesn’t get its authority from being published in Denzinger. It gets it from having been issued by the Holy Office, whose head is the Pope.

Idiot.  You JUST said that we have to give it our assent because it's in Denzinger.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:00:32 PM
Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The docuмent says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:08:07 PM
Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The docuмent says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.

No, you haven't met anything.  It must appear in AAS to be surely authentic from the Vatican.  It's precisely to prevent potential fraud that this stipulation was put into Canon Law.  There's no proof that the letter published by Cushing, the sworn enemy of Father Feeney and of EENS, a manifest heretic by YOUR definition, LoT, hasn't been edited or altered somehow.  It was allegedly written in 1949 and only made public 4 years later, conveniently AFTER the man who had allegedly written had passed away.  There's sufficient evidence to create positive doubt about its authenticity.  Its appearance in AAS would have completely dispelled all doubt, but, quite strangely for a docuмent intended to teach the Church, it doesn't appear there.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:09:23 PM
We have absolutely nothing to go on except for Cushing's word.  Pardon me if that doesn't really do it for me.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:10:25 PM
It’s an official letter from the secretary of the Holy Office, in that very capacity. The Pope doesn’t need to sign it. There are a lot of things the Pope doesn’t sign. For example, the Syllabys of Modernist Errors (Lamentabili Sane) was not signed by Pope Pius X either.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:12:40 PM
It’s an official letter from the secretary of the Holy Office, in that very capacity. The Pope doesn’t need to sign it. There are a lot of things the Pope doesn’t sign. For example, the Syllabys of Modernist Errors (Lamentabili Sane) was not signed by Pope Pius X either.

I don't care about whether Pius XII signed it.  No one has an independent copy to verify it against.  Only Cushing produced a copy.  Only other person who could verify its contents mysteriously died before it was allegedly written 4 years prior to its release.  Standard procedure at the Vatican is to publish all authentic correspondence from the Holy Office in AAS.  Why was this not done in the case of SH?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:14:58 PM
The Pope doesn’t have to speak about it. And yes, he certainly indicated he holds the same belief as expressed in the letter, most notably in the Address to Midwives, in which he acknowledges explicitly the possibility of justification without baptism by perfect contrition.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:16:38 PM
The Pope doesn’t have to speak about it. 
 
As per always, you miss the point.  It's not about whether he signed it.  It's not about whether he spoke about it.  It's about the fact that we have no proof that the version released by Cushing is authentic at all.  Cushing is our only witness to this letter and its contents ... since the author passed away and it never appeared in any Vatican publication.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:17:30 PM
No one claimed the docuмent was infallible. But it requires our assent.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:21:29 PM
No one claimed the docuмent was infallible. But it requires our assent.

Again, you miss the point.  There's no proof that it's even AUTHENTIC, much less infallible.

You have no clue about what assent means in this context, do you?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:23:46 PM
One more time for the sake of the good willed:

Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The docuмent says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.

Where is the proof that this is not an authoritative docuмent?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:26:42 PM
But of course they cannot prove it.  They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative docuмent.  Obviously they would if they could.  But they can’t so they won’t.  They will just lie, cry and deny.  Call names, make false accusations.  But proof?  Will not be forthcoming.  Because there is no proof to bring forth.  Now if it condemned BOD by name they would be lauding the docuмent from the rooftops.  No one can seriously deny it.  But it teaches that which they deny.  So they invent all sorts of fairytales to deny it. 
 
Where is the proof?
 
The  whole Church accepted it.  The docuмent itself says the Pope approved it.  The pope affirmed the teaching as being his own belief in his address to the midwives. 
 
Yet they still deny.  It really is an incredible phenomenon to behold.  This is pride being manifested at its finest.  Their denial comes from their own heads.  No proof at all.  They do not want to believe so they don’t. 
 
“Can’t be authoritative because we don’t believe it.”
 
That doesn’t work.
 

Where is the proof?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:26:50 PM
Where is the proof that this is not an authoritative docuмent?

bzzzzzt.  What proof is there that it IS?  We have ONLY Cushing's word for it.  It's precisely for this reason that Canon Law stipulated that things must appear in AAS in order to be assured as part of the authentic Magisterium ... precisely to prevent fraud.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:28:24 PM
The  whole Church accepted it.  The docuмent itself says the Pope approved it.  

Nobody in the Church except in the US even heard about this thing.

The docuмent itself is the only proof that the docuмent was approved by Pius XII.  That's circular authority.  If we don't know that the docuмent is authentic, we don't have any proof that Pius XII approved it.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:30:15 PM
They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative docuмent.  Obviously they would if they could.

Idiot, the burden of proof is on YOU.  I could fabricate something right now and post it on the Internet, claim that it was written by Pius XII, etc.  And you would suddenly have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it was NOT written by Pius XII?  Don't be a complete idiot, would you?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:32:28 PM
They will lie, ...

Where's the lie, you vile calumniator?  That this did not appear in AAS?  That the only copy we have was produced by Cushing?  That Cushing allegedly sat on the docuмent for four years ... until the man who had allegedly written it had passed away?  Which part of this is "lie"?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: DZ PLEASE on September 15, 2017, 01:33:05 PM
No one claimed the docuмent was infallible. But it requires our assent.
Yeah, that's a very heavy handed but time tested tactic of liars; just keep saying it over and over and you bag the unsuspecting or those otherwise not paying attention.
You're a liar.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: DZ PLEASE on September 15, 2017, 01:36:54 PM
Burden of proof as to what? That is infallible? No, you concede not. That it is free from error? No. That is a letter from the Holy Office to a bishop that has been published expressing views on a matter - most of us conceded that.

It's not the ordinary, universal magisterium teaching. It's a letter to a bishop, who was told (3 years or so later) that he could publish the letter. Great. That sounds like a person or some authority (knowing the story behind this affair, likely for political reasons) wanting to let an impression or position out into the public "unofficially" to serve various (again likely political) purposes, while allowing deniability later.

If they can deny it later, we can certainly question it now, albeit respectfully and as good Catholics ready to assent if the authority does later officially adopt and teach the position.

It doesn't require assent in its unofficial status, and even if it did, we could still question its reasoning.
I demands dissent if it conflicts with something of greater weight regardless. This is the kind of black magic creatures like LoL engage in; it's sheer distraction.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:37:11 PM
bzzzzzt.  What proof is there that it IS?  We have ONLY Cushing's word for it.  It's precisely for this reason that Canon Law stipulated that things must appear in AAS in order to be assured as part of the authentic Magisterium ... precisely to prevent fraud.
By proof I don't mean Ladislaus.  But proof.  What theologians says it is not an authoritative docuмent?  What cardinal or bishop?   

Why even play around with these liars.  I have made my point.  No proof will be forthcoming.  They reject what the whole Church accepted.  

No one took up my challenge to debate one on one whether salvation can be obtained apart from Sacramental Baptism.  JPaul is one who seems civil in his discussions.  

It would be a decent debate sticking to the subject with sources given rather than what is in one's own mind.  There will be no personal attacks or the typical goo goo ga ga antics we see as common place here among the feeneyites.  

There will be the same requisite for both sides.  If my opponent is Catholic he will accept the common teaching of theologians before the Council, Fathers, Saints, Doctors, all authoritative docuмents, anything in the AAS, encyclicals, council and that which is solemnly defined.

If he is some other type of Christian he will discount what all the theologians, approved teachers of the Church, who spoke to the issue have said, anything not in the AAS, what the Fathers, Saints and Doctors who spoke to the issue of BOB/D said, even things in the AAS, encyclicals.  Or any mixture of the above.  Some even reject everything but solemnly defined dogma's.  Of course these are not Catholics.  So I will hold you to the same requisite you hold me.  

No one denies EENS.  If you can prove BOB/D condemned by the above authoritative sources I'm all ears.  What civil individual will take me up on it?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: DZ PLEASE on September 15, 2017, 01:38:24 PM
But of course they cannot prove it.  They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative docuмent.  Obviously they would if they could.  But they can’t so they won’t.  They will just lie, cry and deny.  Call names, make false accusations.  But proof?  Will not be forthcoming.  Because there is no proof to bring forth.  N
"Ass houses" you hypocrite.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:42:45 PM
These guys can't help making a prophet of me again - lies, cries, denies.  Nam-calling too of course.  Yuck.  And ICK

Back to the truth for those with ears to hear in against those who wish to foist their heresies upon us:

Pope St. Pius X did not write, or had nothing to do with, the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X.

Incorrect. 
In the first English translation of Pope Saint Pius X's catechism ("A Compendium of Catechetical Instruction (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/Msgr.%20Hagan-The%20Catechism%20of%20Saint%20Pope%20Pius%20X.pdf)" published by Reverend Monsignor John Hagan in 1910), it states in the Introduction: "During the sitting of the first Catechetical Congress in 1880, the then Bishop of Mantua (later St. Pius X) proposed that the Holy Father be petitioned to arrange for the compilation of a simple, plain, brief, and popular Catechism for uniform use all over the world. Shortly after his elevation to the Chair of Peter, Pius X at once set about realizing, within certain limits, his own proposal of 1880, by prescribing a uniform Catechism — the Compendium of Christian Doctrine — for use in the dioceses of the ecclesiastical province of Rome, at the same time indicating that it was his earnest desire to have the same manual adopted all over Italy."

On October 18, 1912, Pope Pius X also wrote this letter to Cardinal Pietro Respighi (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/piusx-approval.html) approving his Catechism of Christian Doctrine for use in the ecclesiastical province of Rome. Here are photocopies of that letter on pages 3–4 of the original Catechism published in 1912:   Catechism cover (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/PiusX-Catechism-cover.jpg)   Page 2–3 (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/PiusX-Catechism-p2-3.jpg)   Page 4–5 (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/PiusX-Catechism-p4-5.jpg)
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 01:55:44 PM
Where's the lie, you vile calumniator?  That this did not appear in AAS?  That the only copy we have was produced by Cushing?  That Cushing allegedly sat on the docuмent for four years ... until the man who had allegedly written it had passed away?  Which part of this is "lie"?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 01:58:36 PM
Pius XII Mystici Corporus
Quote
 But to these juridical bones, which are sufficient in their own line (quae iam ratione sui sufficiunt), in such a way that they far surpass the bonds of any other human society, even the highest, it is necessary to add another factor of unity by which we are most intimately joined together among ourselves and which God by reason of the three virtues, Christian faith, hope, and charity. [AAS, XXXV, 227.]

As you know very well, Venerable Brethren, from the beginning of Our Pontificate, We have entrusted even those who do not belong to the visible structure (compagem) of the Catholic Church to the heavenly protection and direction, solemnly asserting that, following the example of the Good Shepherd, We wanted nothing more than that they should have life and have it more abundantly. Begging the prayers of the entire Church, We wish to repeat Our solemn declaration in this encyclical letter in which We have praised the great and glorious Body of Christ, most affectionately inviting each and every one of them [those who are not members of the Church] to co-operate generously and willingly with the inward impulses of divine grace and to take care to extricate themselves from that condition in which they cannot be secure about their own eternal salvation. For even though they may be directed towards the Redeemer's Mystical Body by a sort of unconscious desire and intention (etiamsi inscio quodam desiderio ac voto ad mysticuм Redemptoris Corpus ordinentur), they still lack so many and such great heavenly helps and aids that can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church. [Ibid., 243.]
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 15, 2017, 02:42:47 PM
The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 was never docuмented in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (and never assigned an AAS number), therefore the letter is not an official teaching of the Church and can be ignored.

This is incorrect. The Acta Apostolicae Sedis (Latin for "Acts of the Apostolic See"), often cited as AAS, is the official gazette of the Holy See, appearing about twelve times per year. It was established under this name by Pope Pius X in 1908. It replaced a similar publication that had existed since 1865, under the title of Acta Sanctae Sedis. 

The 1917 Code of Canon Law clearly states under Canon 9, "Laws laid down by the Apostolic See are promulgated by publication in the official commentary Acta Apostolicae Sedis [Acts of the Apostolic See], unless in particular cases another mode of promulgation has been prescribed." A Commentary on Canon Law (Augustine, 1918) states the same under Canon 9: "The laws enacted by the Apostolic See are promulgated by being published in the official Acta Apostolicae Sedis, unless some other mode of promulgation is prescribed in particular cases...". 

The Catholic Encyclopedia concurs with this where it states this monthly Roman publication contains the "principal public docuмents issued by the Pope, directly or through the Roman Congregations."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 15, 2017, 06:43:30 PM
The 1917 Code of Canon Law clearly states under Canon 9, "Laws laid down by the Apostolic See are promulgated by publication in the official commentary Acta Apostolicae Sedis [Acts of the Apostolic See], unless in particular cases another mode of promulgation has been prescribed." 

Nothing sourced from the Vatican was ever "prescribed" for this alleged letter.  We have nothing but Cushing's word for it.  Period.  End of story.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Merry on September 15, 2017, 07:22:35 PM
MAYBE "LoT" is not a real Catholic.  Maybe he is an infiltrator - some Communist or agent of the New Church modernist cabal sent to this website for the purpose of obfuscation, dissemination of error and calumny/mudslinging, to lead astray or weaken the traditional resistance.  MAYBE that is why he is not affected by anything anyone says in opposition to his hatred of Fr. Leonard Feeney, a good and loyal priest.  MAYBE that is why he simply keeps slinging his unstable and erratic theology and methodology, fighting Catholic truth and alarming people with his uncatholic spirit. The Church's enemies have been known to infiltrate even the Center itself.  They would surely be interested in a website having EENS participants, if they could affect the intellectual content towards and by their propaganda - or at least slow down or distract the orthodox Catholic reader.  They use many techniques, including just putting names in use that have a "bad smell" (to use the Communist term) - "Feeneyite," for example.  

Conscientious Catholics would not be as heedless as "LoT" in his affirmations and methods, because such Catholics would still be careful of their virtue -- their humility and charity - nor, perhaps, would they presume to take such a presumptuous name to live up to: "Lover of Truth."  None of us lesser folk would think ourselves worthy of it.    
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 18, 2017, 08:39:39 AM
Lie, cry and deny.  Where is the proof?  Can you at least pretend to be intellectually honest?

Father Leonard Feeney was excommunicated only for disobedience, not for going against the faith.

Incorrect. The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (
here (http://baptismofdesire.com/feeney.html)) clearly states, "Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities...". The circuмstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/Feeney-article-1953.jpg). Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: JPaul on September 18, 2017, 11:57:34 AM
Lie, cry and deny.  Where is the proof?  Can you at least pretend to be intellectually honest?

Father Leonard Feeney was excommunicated only for disobedience, not for going against the faith.

Incorrect. The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (
here (http://baptismofdesire.com/feeney.html)) clearly states, "Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities...". The circuмstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here (http://www.baptismofdesire.com/Feeney-article-1953.jpg). Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
This has already been answered.  Father Feeney attacked the catechetical instructions that were being taught in the diocese with the  lawful authority,s approval. The teaching in question was demonstrably heretical.  You are willfully obtuse when it comes to facts.
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 18, 2017, 11:59:10 AM
Where's the lie, you vile calumniator?  That this did not appear in AAS?  That the only copy we have was produced by Cushing?  That Cushing allegedly sat on the docuмent for four years ... until the man who had allegedly written it had passed away?  Which part of this is "lie"?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 18, 2017, 01:07:12 PM
As we wait for the "proof" that will never come we will see some truth that cannot be legitimately refuted:

St. Cyprian, Church Father (3rd Century): The Epistles of Cyprian, Epistle LXXII: "Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood".

Epistle LXXII, To Jubaianus, Concerning the Baptism of Heretics: "Let men of this kind, who are aiders and favourers of heretics, know therefore, first, that those catechumens hold the sound faith and truth of the Church, and advance from the divine camp to do battle with the devil, with a full and sincere acknowledgment of God the Father, and of Christ, and of the Holy Ghost; then, that they certainly are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism who are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord also said, that He had "another baptism to be baptized with."

The Treatises Of Cyprian, Treatise XI, Exhortation to Martyrdom, Addressed to Fortunatus: "In the baptism of water is received the remission of sins, in the baptism of blood the crown of virtues. This thing is to be embraced and desired, and to be asked for in all the entreaties of our petitions, that we who are God's servants should be also His friends."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 19, 2017, 08:52:20 AM
Tertullian, Church Father (3rd Century): On Baptism, Chapter XVI, Of the Second Baptism - With Blood: "We have indeed, likewise, a second font, (itself withal one with the former,) of blood, to wit; concerning which the Lord said, "I have to be baptized with a baptism,"when He had been baptized already. For He had come "by means of water and blood,"just as John has written; that He might be baptized by the water, glorified by the blood; to make us, in like manner, called by water, chosen by blood. These two baptisms He sent out from the wound in His pierced side, in order that they who believed in His blood might be bathed with the water; they who had been bathed in the water might likewise drink the blood. This is the baptism which both stands in lieu of the fontal bathing when that has not been received, and restores it when lost."

Scorpiace: Antidote for the Scorpion's Sting, Ch VI: "He therefore appointed as second supplies of comfort, and the last means of succour, the fight of martyrdom and the baptism--thereafter free from danger--of blood. And concerning the happiness of the man who has partaken of these, David says: "Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin." For, strictly speaking, there cannot any longer be reckoned ought against the martyrs, by whom in the baptism (of blood) life itself is laid down. Thus, "love covers the multitude of sins;" and loving God, to wit, with all its strength (by which in the endurance of martyrdom it maintains the fight), with all its life (which it lays down for God), it makes of man a martyr."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2017, 01:47:22 PM
 >:(
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 19, 2017, 01:51:28 PM
Basically the Protestant position was that the true Church, the Mystical Body of Christ, is to be found in this world among the justified or the predestined people, and that only God knows exactly who these individuals really are. The heresiarchs of the Reformation contended that this true Church, the social body outside which no one can be saved, is something invisible to men in this world. Fenton 
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2017, 02:11:09 PM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 19, 2017, 02:36:44 PM
This attitude manifested itself most strongly with regard to the dogma of the Church's necessity for eternal salvation, the point of doctrine against which the opponents of the Church tended to react most violently. Thus there were some Catholic publicists who produced statements of the Catholic position in which the dogma of the necessity of the Church for the attainment of salvation was simply ignored. Others, however, wrote and taught in such a way as to weaken this teaching and to explain it in a way inconsistent with the pronouncements on the subject by the ecclesiastical magisterium. These were the people who reduced the necessity of the Church for the attainment of salvation to a mere empty formula.  Fenton
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 19, 2017, 03:05:07 PM
 :P
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 20, 2017, 07:32:59 AM
Mathew, who held ultimately that Catholics were simply not bound to hold anything like the teaching that no one can be saved outside the Catholic Church, was enthusiastic in his praise of Newman's explanation. He claimed that the Cardinal had "dealt with the question in such a masterly way that it is impossible to improve upon what he says." [Ibid.] As a group, the theologians of the Catholic Church have shown no disposition whatsoever to share Mathew's enthusiasm for this section of Newman's teaching. Fenton 
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2017, 10:18:45 AM
 :boxer:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 20, 2017, 01:04:54 PM
 According to the Letter to the Duke of Norfolk, these words of Pope Pius IX conveyed what Newman called "the doctrine of invincible ignorance - or, that it is possible to belong to the soul of the Church without belonging to the body." He concluded his treatment of the dogma with this question: "Who would at first sight gather from the wording of so forcible a universal ["Out of the Church, and out of the faith, is no salvation"], that an exception to its operation, such as this, so distinct, and, for all we know, so very wide, was consistent with holding it?" [Ibid., 336]

    If Newman's words mean anything, they assert that the Church holds and proposes as "a dogma, which no Catholic can ever think of disputing," a statement which it contradicts at the very same time. He claims that the doctrine "Out of the Church, and out of the faith, is no salvation" is a dogma of the Church, a truth revealed by God to be held on divine faith by all men. This dogma is set forth as a universal negative proposition, something which is contradicted by a particular affirmative. And Newman taught here that the particular affirmative proposition contradicting this very universal negative dogma is true. He believed that in at least one definite case, which may have a very wide application, there can be salvation outside the faith and outside the Church.

    Newman believed that it was "consistent" to hold at the same time that there is no salvation outside the Church and outside the faith. Obviously there could be no more effective way of reducing the teaching on the necessity of the Church for the attainment of eternal salvation to an empty formula than the explanation advanced by Newman in what are probably the least felicitous pages of all his published works. That explanation is certainly one of those reproved in the encyclical letter Humani generis. Fenton
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2017, 02:08:57 PM
:cowboy:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 20, 2017, 02:25:05 PM
    The Humani generis is certainly one of the most important docuмents issued by the Holy See during the course of the twentieth century. The perspective of years will be needed for a proper appreciation of the beneficial effects it has brought into the teaching of sacred theology. Yet even today we can see clearly that one of its finest and most valuable lessons was contained in its brief reference to the dogma that the Catholic Church is really necessary for the attainment of eternal salvation. Fenton 
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2017, 02:29:12 PM
 :boxer:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 20, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
 It repudiated and condemned the practice, which, incidentally, had been all too frequent, of reducing this doctrine to an empty or vain formula. Actually this section of sacred theology or of Catholic doctrine was one in which inadequate or inaccurate teaching had precisely the effect of representing a part of Catholic teaching as mere meaningless verbiage. Almost every Catholic writer who touched in any way upon this subject began in some way with a consideration of and an assent to a definite formula: "No salvation outside the Church." Most of the men who taught this subject in an incorrect or faulty manner managed, in the last analysis, to give the impression that, although Catholics are bound in conscience to accept this formula as true, it really means little or nothing. Fenton
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 20, 2017, 03:10:43 PM
 :baby:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: JPaul on September 20, 2017, 03:25:02 PM
:baby:
Was Fenton a Supreme Father and Doctor of the Church?.....or what?
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 21, 2017, 08:12:48 AM
Eusebius of Caesarea, Church Father (4th Century)The Church History of Eusebius, Book VI, Chapter IV: "And of women, Herais died while yet a catechumen, receiving baptism by fire, as Origen himself somewhere says."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2017, 09:12:40 AM
 8)
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 21, 2017, 11:23:15 AM
St. Genesius of Arles, (4th Century)As noted in the Catholic Encyclopedia: "A notary martyred under Maximianus in 303 or 308. Feast, 25 Aug. He is honoured as patron of notaries, and invoked against chilblains and scurf. The Acts (Acta SS., Aug., V, 123, and Ruinart, 559), attributed to St. Paulinus of Nola, state: Genesius, native of Arles, at first a soldier became known for his proficiency in writing, and was made secretary to the magistrate of Arles. While performing the duties of his office the decree of persecution against the Christians was read in his presence. Outraged in his ideas of justice, the young catechumen cast his tablets at the feet of the magistrate and fled. He was captured and executed, and thus received baptism in his own blood. His veneration must be very old, as his name is found in the ancient martyrology ascribed to St. Jerome. A church and altar dedicated to him at Arles were known in the fourth century."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 21, 2017, 12:14:42 PM
 :boxer:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 21, 2017, 02:18:30 PM
St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Doctor of the Church (4th Century)First Catechetical Lecture Of Our Holy Father Cyril, Archbishop of Jerusalem, To Those Who Are to Be Enlightened, Delivered Extempore at Jerusalem, As an Introductory Lecture To Those Who Had Come Forward for Baptism, Lecture III on Baptism: "If any man receive not Baptism, he hath not salvation; except only Martyrs, who even without the water receive the kingdom. For when the Saviour, in redeeming the world by His Cross, was pierced in the side, He shed forth blood and water; that men, living in times of peace, might be baptized in water, and, in times of persecution, in their own blood. For martyrdom also the Saviour is wont to call a baptism, saying, Can ye drink rite cup which I drink, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

Lecture XIII: "For since in the Gospels the power of salutary Baptism is twofold, one which is granted by means of water to the illuminated, and a second to holy martyrs, in persecutions, through their own blood, there came out of that saving Side blood and water, to confirm the grace of the confession made for Christ, whether in baptism, or on occasions of martyrdom."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 22, 2017, 08:06:07 AM
 :baby:
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 22, 2017, 08:28:11 AM
Council of Trent (16th century)Decree on Justification, Session VI, Chapter 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

Session VII, Concerning the Sacraments in General, Canon 4 (Denz 847): "If anyone shall say that the sacraments of the New Law are not necessary for salvation, but are superfluous, and that, although all are not necessary for every individual, without them or without the desire of them, through faith alone men obtain from God the grace of justification; let him be anathema."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 22, 2017, 09:26:55 AM
The New Testament, translated to English at the College of Rheims, 1582 (16th century)Annotations for John Chapter 3: "Though in this case, God which hath not bound his grace, in respect of his own freedom, to any Sacrament, may and doth accept them as baptized, which either are martyred before they could be baptized, or else depart this life with vow and desire to have that Sacrament, but by some remedilesse necessity could not obtain it."
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: DZ PLEASE on September 22, 2017, 11:01:54 AM
LoT, I have this question for you: Why is "or the desire thereof"  used instead of "and the desire thereof" ?
"LALALALALA... " (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8YRUeefYdI&feature=youtu.be&t=13s)

Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Lover of Truth on September 22, 2017, 12:32:04 PM
Baltimore Catechism (19th and 20th centuries)Q. 653. Is Baptism of desire or of blood sufficient to produce the effects of Baptism of water? A. Baptism of desire or of blood is sufficient to produce the effects of the Baptism of water, if it is impossible to receive the Baptism of water. 

Q. 512. How are such persons said to belong to the Church? A. Such persons are said to belong to the "soul of the church"; that is, they are really members of the Church without knowing it. Those who share in its Sacraments and worship are said to belong to the body or visible part of the Church.

[Note: The Baltimore Catechism was issued by the Third Council of Baltimore in 1884, and was approved by Pope Leo XIII in 1885 as the standard for Catholic schools in the United States, where it remained the standard for nearly a century. Even after extreme scrutiny and corrections after being published, the content on the threefold baptism has remained in the catechism to this day.]
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Ladislaus on September 25, 2017, 10:44:03 AM
 :-X
Title: Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Docuмents
Post by: Stubborn on September 25, 2017, 10:51:58 AM
"LALALALALA... " (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U8YRUeefYdI&feature=youtu.be&t=13s)
He might think you mean.......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHJPb08KI1E

lol