Author Topic: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents  (Read 1589 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 01:32:28 PM »
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  • They will lie, ...

    Where's the lie, you vile calumniator?  That this did not appear in AAS?  That the only copy we have was produced by Cushing?  That Cushing allegedly sat on the document for four years ... until the man who had allegedly written it had passed away?  Which part of this is "lie"?

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #31 on: September 15, 2017, 01:33:05 PM »
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  • No one claimed the document was infallible. But it requires our assent.
    Yeah, that's a very heavy handed but time tested tactic of liars; just keep saying it over and over and you bag the unsuspecting or those otherwise not paying attention.
    You're a liar.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #32 on: September 15, 2017, 01:36:54 PM »
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  • Burden of proof as to what? That is infallible? No, you concede not. That it is free from error? No. That is a letter from the Holy Office to a bishop that has been published expressing views on a matter - most of us conceded that.

    It's not the ordinary, universal magisterium teaching. It's a letter to a bishop, who was told (3 years or so later) that he could publish the letter. Great. That sounds like a person or some authority (knowing the story behind this affair, likely for political reasons) wanting to let an impression or position out into the public "unofficially" to serve various (again likely political) purposes, while allowing deniability later.

    If they can deny it later, we can certainly question it now, albeit respectfully and as good Catholics ready to assent if the authority does later officially adopt and teach the position.

    It doesn't require assent in its unofficial status, and even if it did, we could still question its reasoning.
    I demands dissent if it conflicts with something of greater weight regardless. This is the kind of black magic creatures like LoL engage in; it's sheer distraction.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #33 on: September 15, 2017, 01:37:11 PM »
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  • bzzzzzt.  What proof is there that it IS?  We have ONLY Cushing's word for it.  It's precisely for this reason that Canon Law stipulated that things must appear in AAS in order to be assured as part of the authentic Magisterium ... precisely to prevent fraud.
    By proof I don't mean Ladislaus.  But proof.  What theologians says it is not an authoritative document?  What cardinal or bishop?   

    Why even play around with these liars.  I have made my point.  No proof will be forthcoming.  They reject what the whole Church accepted.  

    No one took up my challenge to debate one on one whether salvation can be obtained apart from Sacramental Baptism.  JPaul is one who seems civil in his discussions.  

    It would be a decent debate sticking to the subject with sources given rather than what is in one's own mind.  There will be no personal attacks or the typical goo goo ga ga antics we see as common place here among the feeneyites.  

    There will be the same requisite for both sides.  If my opponent is Catholic he will accept the common teaching of theologians before the Council, Fathers, Saints, Doctors, all authoritative documents, anything in the AAS, encyclicals, council and that which is solemnly defined.

    If he is some other type of Christian he will discount what all the theologians, approved teachers of the Church, who spoke to the issue have said, anything not in the AAS, what the Fathers, Saints and Doctors who spoke to the issue of BOB/D said, even things in the AAS, encyclicals.  Or any mixture of the above.  Some even reject everything but solemnly defined dogma's.  Of course these are not Catholics.  So I will hold you to the same requisite you hold me.  

    No one denies EENS.  If you can prove BOB/D condemned by the above authoritative sources I'm all ears.  What civil individual will take me up on it?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #34 on: September 15, 2017, 01:38:24 PM »
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  • But of course they cannot prove it.  They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative document.  Obviously they would if they could.  But they can’t so they won’t.  They will just lie, cry and deny.  Call names, make false accusations.  But proof?  Will not be forthcoming.  Because there is no proof to bring forth.  N
    "Ass houses" you hypocrite.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #35 on: September 15, 2017, 01:42:45 PM »
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  • These guys can't help making a prophet of me again - lies, cries, denies.  Nam-calling too of course.  Yuck.  And ICK

    Back to the truth for those with ears to hear in against those who wish to foist their heresies upon us:

    Pope St. Pius X did not write, or had nothing to do with, the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X.

    Incorrect. 
    In the first English translation of Pope Saint Pius X's catechism ("A Compendium of Catechetical Instruction" published by Reverend Monsignor John Hagan in 1910), it states in the Introduction: "During the sitting of the first Catechetical Congress in 1880, the then Bishop of Mantua (later St. Pius X) proposed that the Holy Father be petitioned to arrange for the compilation of a simple, plain, brief, and popular Catechism for uniform use all over the world. Shortly after his elevation to the Chair of Peter, Pius X at once set about realizing, within certain limits, his own proposal of 1880, by prescribing a uniform Catechism — the Compendium of Christian Doctrine — for use in the dioceses of the ecclesiastical province of Rome, at the same time indicating that it was his earnest desire to have the same manual adopted all over Italy."

    On October 18, 1912, Pope Pius X also wrote this letter to Cardinal Pietro Respighi approving his Catechism of Christian Doctrine for use in the ecclesiastical province of Rome. Here are photocopies of that letter on pages 3–4 of the original Catechism published in 1912:   Catechism cover   Page 2–3   Page 4–5
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #36 on: September 15, 2017, 01:55:44 PM »
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  • Where's the lie, you vile calumniator?  That this did not appear in AAS?  That the only copy we have was produced by Cushing?  That Cushing allegedly sat on the document for four years ... until the man who had allegedly written it had passed away?  Which part of this is "lie"?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #37 on: September 15, 2017, 01:58:36 PM »
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  • Pius XII Mystici Corporus
    Quote
     But to these juridical bones, which are sufficient in their own line (quae iam ratione sui sufficiunt), in such a way that they far surpass the bonds of any other human society, even the highest, it is necessary to add another factor of unity by which we are most intimately joined together among ourselves and which God by reason of the three virtues, Christian faith, hope, and charity. [AAS, XXXV, 227.]

    As you know very well, Venerable Brethren, from the beginning of Our Pontificate, We have entrusted even those who do not belong to the visible structure (compagem) of the Catholic Church to the heavenly protection and direction, solemnly asserting that, following the example of the Good Shepherd, We wanted nothing more than that they should have life and have it more abundantly. Begging the prayers of the entire Church, We wish to repeat Our solemn declaration in this encyclical letter in which We have praised the great and glorious Body of Christ, most affectionately inviting each and every one of them [those who are not members of the Church] to co-operate generously and willingly with the inward impulses of divine grace and to take care to extricate themselves from that condition in which they cannot be secure about their own eternal salvation. For even though they may be directed towards the Redeemer's Mystical Body by a sort of unconscious desire and intention (etiamsi inscio quodam desiderio ac voto ad mysticum Redemptoris Corpus ordinentur), they still lack so many and such great heavenly helps and aids that can be enjoyed only in the Catholic Church. [Ibid., 243.]
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #38 on: September 15, 2017, 02:10:59 PM »
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  • These guys can't help making a prophet of me again - lies, cries, denies.  Nam-calling too of course.  Yuck.  And ICK

    Back to the truth for those with ears to hear in against those who wish to foist their heresies upon us:

    Pope St. Pius X did not write, or had nothing to do with, the Catechism of Pope St. Pius X.

    Incorrect.
    In the first English translation of Pope Saint Pius X's catechism ("A Compendium of Catechetical Instruction" published by Reverend Monsignor John Hagan in 1910), it states in the Introduction: "During the sitting of the first Catechetical Congress in 1880, the then Bishop of Mantua (later St. Pius X) proposed that the Holy Father be petitioned to arrange for the compilation of a simple, plain, brief, and popular Catechism for uniform use all over the world. Shortly after his elevation to the Chair of Peter, Pius X at once set about realizing, within certain limits, his own proposal of 1880, by prescribing a uniform Catechism — the Compendium of Christian Doctrine — for use in the dioceses of the ecclesiastical province of Rome, at the same time indicating that it was his earnest desire to have the same manual adopted all over Italy."

    On October 18, 1912, Pope Pius X also wrote this letter to Cardinal Pietro Respighi approving his Catechism of Christian Doctrine for use in the ecclesiastical province of Rome. Here are photocopies of that letter on pages 3–4 of the original Catechism published in 1912:   Catechism cover   Page 2–3   Page 4–5
    You didn't respond to my post in another thread about that Catechism saying some men may be "separated from the body" of the Church and yet joined to her soul by BOD - which Fenton says is not accurate and even "serious error" in some instances. Do you not see the problem with accepting these types of sources, how wary you must be?
    I haven't called you names, etc. I'm trying to have a discussion with you. You never respond to questions. 
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #39 on: September 15, 2017, 02:12:45 PM »
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  • Point in fact, Lover of Truth: I just asked you in this thread where Pius XII in his allocution supported the Letter's claim that "an implicit desire" to enter the Church suffices.

    No response. 
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #40 on: September 15, 2017, 02:42:47 PM »
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  • The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 was never documented in the Acta Apostolicae Sedis (and never assigned an AAS number), therefore the letter is not an official teaching of the Church and can be ignored.

    This is incorrect. The Acta Apostolicae Sedis (Latin for "Acts of the Apostolic See"), often cited as AAS, is the official gazette of the Holy See, appearing about twelve times per year. It was established under this name by Pope Pius X in 1908. It replaced a similar publication that had existed since 1865, under the title of Acta Sanctae Sedis. 

    The 1917 Code of Canon Law clearly states under Canon 9, "Laws laid down by the Apostolic See are promulgated by publication in the official commentary Acta Apostolicae Sedis [Acts of the Apostolic See], unless in particular cases another mode of promulgation has been prescribed." A Commentary on Canon Law (Augustine, 1918) states the same under Canon 9: "The laws enacted by the Apostolic See are promulgated by being published in the official Acta Apostolicae Sedis, unless some other mode of promulgation is prescribed in particular cases...". 

    The Catholic Encyclopedia concurs with this where it states this monthly Roman publication contains the "principal public documents issued by the Pope, directly or through the Roman Congregations."
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #41 on: September 15, 2017, 06:43:30 PM »
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  • The 1917 Code of Canon Law clearly states under Canon 9, "Laws laid down by the Apostolic See are promulgated by publication in the official commentary Acta Apostolicae Sedis [Acts of the Apostolic See], unless in particular cases another mode of promulgation has been prescribed." 

    Nothing sourced from the Vatican was ever "prescribed" for this alleged letter.  We have nothing but Cushing's word for it.  Period.  End of story.

    Offline Merry

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #42 on: September 15, 2017, 07:22:35 PM »
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  • MAYBE "LoT" is not a real Catholic.  Maybe he is an infiltrator - some Communist or agent of the New Church modernist cabal sent to this website for the purpose of obfuscation, dissemination of error and calumny/mudslinging, to lead astray or weaken the traditional resistance.  MAYBE that is why he is not affected by anything anyone says in opposition to his hatred of Fr. Leonard Feeney, a good and loyal priest.  MAYBE that is why he simply keeps slinging his unstable and erratic theology and methodology, fighting Catholic truth and alarming people with his uncatholic spirit. The Church's enemies have been known to infiltrate even the Center itself.  They would surely be interested in a website having EENS participants, if they could affect the intellectual content towards and by their propaganda - or at least slow down or distract the orthodox Catholic reader.  They use many techniques, including just putting names in use that have a "bad smell" (to use the Communist term) - "Feeneyite," for example.  

    Conscientious Catholics would not be as heedless as "LoT" in his affirmations and methods, because such Catholics would still be careful of their virtue -- their humility and charity - nor, perhaps, would they presume to take such a presumptuous name to live up to: "Lover of Truth."  None of us lesser folk would think ourselves worthy of it.    
    If any one saith that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and on that account wrests to some sort of metaphor those words of Our Lord Jesus Christ, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost...,"  Let Him Be Anathama.  -COUNCIL OF TRENT Sess VII Canon II “On Baptism"

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #43 on: September 18, 2017, 08:39:39 AM »
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  • Lie, cry and deny.  Where is the proof?  Can you at least pretend to be intellectually honest?

    Father Leonard Feeney was excommunicated only for disobedience, not for going against the faith.

    Incorrect. The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (
    hereclearly states, "Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities...". The circumstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here. Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline JPaul

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #44 on: September 18, 2017, 11:57:34 AM »
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  • Lie, cry and deny.  Where is the proof?  Can you at least pretend to be intellectually honest?

    Father Leonard Feeney was excommunicated only for disobedience, not for going against the faith.

    Incorrect. The letter from the Holy Office in 1949 to the Archbishop of Boston (
    here) clearly states, "Furthermore, it is beyond understanding how a member of a religious Institute, namely Father Feeney, presents himself as a "Defender of the Faith," and at the same time does not hesitate to attack the catechetical instruction proposed by lawful authorities...". The circumstances surrounding the excommunication were printed in an article in "The Catholic Advance" on February 27, 1953, which can be seen here. Pope Pius XII made three separate requests for Father Feeney to come to Rome. Clearly this meeting was to be about Father Feeney's denial of a Catholic doctrine, but when he did not show for the hearing, this was the final straw.
    This has already been answered.  Father Feeney attacked the catechetical instructions that were being taught in the diocese with the  lawful authority,s approval. The teaching in question was demonstrably heretical.  You are willfully obtuse when it comes to facts.

     

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