Author Topic: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents  (Read 1582 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2017, 01:08:07 PM »
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  • Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The document says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.

    No, you haven't met anything.  It must appear in AAS to be surely authentic from the Vatican.  It's precisely to prevent potential fraud that this stipulation was put into Canon Law.  There's no proof that the letter published by Cushing, the sworn enemy of Father Feeney and of EENS, a manifest heretic by YOUR definition, LoT, hasn't been edited or altered somehow.  It was allegedly written in 1949 and only made public 4 years later, conveniently AFTER the man who had allegedly written had passed away.  There's sufficient evidence to create positive doubt about its authenticity.  Its appearance in AAS would have completely dispelled all doubt, but, quite strangely for a document intended to teach the Church, it doesn't appear there.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #16 on: September 15, 2017, 01:09:23 PM »
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  • We have absolutely nothing to go on except for Cushing's word.  Pardon me if that doesn't really do it for me.


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #17 on: September 15, 2017, 01:10:25 PM »
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  • It’s an official letter from the secretary of the Holy Office, in that very capacity. The Pope doesn’t need to sign it. There are a lot of things the Pope doesn’t sign. For example, the Syllabys of Modernist Errors (Lamentabili Sane) was not signed by Pope Pius X either.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #18 on: September 15, 2017, 01:12:40 PM »
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  • It’s an official letter from the secretary of the Holy Office, in that very capacity. The Pope doesn’t need to sign it. There are a lot of things the Pope doesn’t sign. For example, the Syllabys of Modernist Errors (Lamentabili Sane) was not signed by Pope Pius X either.

    I don't care about whether Pius XII signed it.  No one has an independent copy to verify it against.  Only Cushing produced a copy.  Only other person who could verify its contents mysteriously died before it was allegedly written 4 years prior to its release.  Standard procedure at the Vatican is to publish all authentic correspondence from the Holy Office in AAS.  Why was this not done in the case of SH?

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #19 on: September 15, 2017, 01:14:58 PM »
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  • The Pope doesn’t have to speak about it. And yes, he certainly indicated he holds the same belief as expressed in the letter, most notably in the Address to Midwives, in which he acknowledges explicitly the possibility of justification without baptism by perfect contrition.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #20 on: September 15, 2017, 01:16:38 PM »
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  • The Pope doesn’t have to speak about it. 
     
    As per always, you miss the point.  It's not about whether he signed it.  It's not about whether he spoke about it.  It's about the fact that we have no proof that the version released by Cushing is authentic at all.  Cushing is our only witness to this letter and its contents ... since the author passed away and it never appeared in any Vatican publication.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #21 on: September 15, 2017, 01:17:30 PM »
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  • No one claimed the document was infallible. But it requires our assent.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #22 on: September 15, 2017, 01:21:29 PM »
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  • No one claimed the document was infallible. But it requires our assent.

    Again, you miss the point.  There's no proof that it's even AUTHENTIC, much less infallible.

    You have no clue about what assent means in this context, do you?


    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #23 on: September 15, 2017, 01:23:46 PM »
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  • One more time for the sake of the good willed:

    Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The document says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.

    Where is the proof that this is not an authoritative document?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #24 on: September 15, 2017, 01:24:51 PM »
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  • Again the burden of proof is being unreasonably shifted. The letter came from the Holy Office to the Abp. of Boston. It was made public in 1953 and appeared in several periodicals. It was included in Denzinger. The document says His Holiness approved the doctrine set forth therein. The Pope is the head of the Holy Office. We have met our burden of proof. If anyone believes that Pius XII did NOT approve this, the burden of proof is now on him to prove it. Not on us.
    Burden of proof as to what? That is infallible? No, you concede not. That it is free from error? No. That is a letter from the Holy Office to a bishop that has been published expressing views on a matter - most of us conceded that. 

    It's not the ordinary, universal magisterium teaching. It's a letter to a bishop, who was told (3 years or so later) that he could publish the letter. Great. That sounds like a person or some authority (knowing the story behind this affair, likely for political reasons) wanting to let an impression or position out into the public "unofficially" to serve various (again likely political) purposes, while allowing deniability later. 

    If they can deny it later, we can certainly question it now, albeit respectfully and as good Catholics ready to assent if the authority does later officially adopt and teach the position.

    It doesn't require assent in its unofficial status, and even if it did, we could still question its reasoning.

    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #25 on: September 15, 2017, 01:26:42 PM »
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  • But of course they cannot prove it.  They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative document.  Obviously they would if they could.  But they can’t so they won’t.  They will just lie, cry and deny.  Call names, make false accusations.  But proof?  Will not be forthcoming.  Because there is no proof to bring forth.  Now if it condemned BOD by name they would be lauding the document from the rooftops.  No one can seriously deny it.  But it teaches that which they deny.  So they invent all sorts of fairytales to deny it. 
     
    Where is the proof?
     
    The  whole Church accepted it.  The document itself says the Pope approved it.  The pope affirmed the teaching as being his own belief in his address to the midwives. 
     
    Yet they still deny.  It really is an incredible phenomenon to behold.  This is pride being manifested at its finest.  Their denial comes from their own heads.  No proof at all.  They do not want to believe so they don’t. 
     
    “Can’t be authoritative because we don’t believe it.”
     
    That doesn’t work.
     

    Where is the proof?
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #26 on: September 15, 2017, 01:26:50 PM »
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  • Where is the proof that this is not an authoritative document?

    bzzzzzt.  What proof is there that it IS?  We have ONLY Cushing's word for it.  It's precisely for this reason that Canon Law stipulated that things must appear in AAS in order to be assured as part of the authentic Magisterium ... precisely to prevent fraud.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #27 on: September 15, 2017, 01:28:24 PM »
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  • The  whole Church accepted it.  The document itself says the Pope approved it.  

    Nobody in the Church except in the US even heard about this thing.

    The document itself is the only proof that the document was approved by Pius XII.  That's circular authority.  If we don't know that the document is authentic, we don't have any proof that Pius XII approved it.

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 01:29:29 PM »
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  • But of course they cannot prove it.  They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative document.  Obviously they would if they could.  But they can’t so they won’t.  They will just lie, cry and deny.  Call names, make false accusations.  But proof?  Will not be forthcoming.  Because there is no proof to bring forth.  Now if it condemned BOD by name they would be lauding the document from the rooftops.  No one can seriously deny it.  But it teaches that which they deny.  So they invent all sorts of fairytales to deny it.  
     
    Where is the proof?
     
    The  whole Church accepted it.  The document itself says the Pope approved it.  The pope affirmed the teaching as being his own belief in his address to the midwives.  
     
    Yet they still deny.  It really is an incredible phenomenon to behold.  This is pride being manifested at its finest.  Their denial comes from their own heads.  No proof at all.  They do not want to believe so they don’t.  
     
    “Can’t be authoritative because we don’t believe it.”
     
    That doesn’t work.
     

    Where is the proof?
    What a mess that is. But this will suffice for now:

    Quote
    The pope affirmed the teaching as being his own belief in his address to the midwives.  

    He approved in that address that an "implicit" desire to enter the Church was sufficient?
    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Good Catholics Give Assent to Authoritative Documents
    « Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 01:30:15 PM »
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  • They will lie, cry and deny it but they can not prove it is not an authoritative document.  Obviously they would if they could.

    Idiot, the burden of proof is on YOU.  I could fabricate something right now and post it on the Internet, claim that it was written by Pius XII, etc.  And you would suddenly have the burden of proof to demonstrate that it was NOT written by Pius XII?  Don't be a complete idiot, would you?

     

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