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Author Topic: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water  (Read 3635 times)

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Offline Boomerang

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2026, 02:59:12 AM »

Quote
https://archive.org/details/saintamongsavage0000talb
Saint among savages; the life of Isaac Jogues by Francis Talbot, S.J.

pg 390
Though dressed in secular clothes and engaged as the ambassador of the French, Father Jogues was busy with the affairs of God. He made his rounds of the cabins, seeking out the sick and the dying. Some adults, nearing their end, he baptized after receiving from them expression of their desire to be with God, and thus, remarked Lalemant, "he sent to heaven those poor dying creatures, predestined, however, to riches." He also found some babies also doomed to death, and forwarded them also to heaven. There were Huron and Algonquin Christians held prisoners, and these he instructed and strengthened and confessed.

Pg 432
Le Berger never manifested any wish to return to the Mohawk village. Nevertheless, the French, when they were bringing him down to Quebec, bound him securely with cords and irons each night. Always, he was found free of his shackles. The French were amazed. His only explanation was that his bonds fell off when he prayed to the great God of the French: "Thou who hast made all things, Thou knowest well that it is wrong for the French to treat me so roughly, taking me for a traitor. Thou knowest well that I am not a traitor. Have pity on me." He begged for baptism, but the French still suspected him of diabolical intentions. On October 31, 1649, he was shipped to France, arriving at Havre de Grace, December 7. He was in poor health on board the vessel, and, in addition, suffered an injury to his leg so that he was put in the hospital at Dieppe. He edifiede all who saw him, and continually asked to be baptized since he knew what the Blackrobes taught and could say all his prayers.
On January 22, he was brought to Paris and four day later was found to be mortally sick with a high fever. He was loved by everyone, but even yet, despite his pleadings, he was refused baptism. It was only half an hour before he died that they poured the saving water on his head. Such was the felicity, asserts the chronicler, "of an Iroquois who had, perhaps, eaten his share of more than fifty men." Father Lalemant wrote, in reference to Le Berger's claim about attempting to save Father Jogues: "That stroke upon his arm, received through charity, was perhaps the stroke of his predestination, for it may certainly be believed that this good Father obtained from Our Lord in Heaven the salvation of this man's souls in reward for his attempt to save the Father while in the body."


Offline Boomerang

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2026, 05:08:40 AM »

Quote
https://archive.org/details/saintamonghurons0000unse/page/98/mode/2up
Saint among the Hurons : the life of Jean de Brébeuf by Francis Talbot, S.J.

pg 98
The French were warned not to leave their houses after nightfall, lest some of the savages commit another crime. During this tense period, the trusted La Nasse one evening pounded on the door and begged Pere Paul to baptize a baby that was dying. Despite the prohibition, Le Jeune resolved to go with La Nasse. But de Brebeuf persuaded him to remain at home, since he was running a fever, and volunteered to take his place, with Pere de Noue as companion. They were guided by La Nasse along the dark paths to a cabin some two miles away, under the cliff of the Rock. The relatives of the baby refused to show it to the Blackrobes, lest they cast a speel over it and cause it to die. De Noue, frightened by the baleful looks of the savages in the cabin, slipped out to bring the interpreter, Olivier Le Tardi, to protect de Brebeuf. Together, they persuaded the the mother that her baby would be happy if it were baptized. She finally agreed if the father, who was drunk in another cabin, would also consent. He was awakened and sent back word: "Although I am drunk, I understand what you say. Tell the Blackrobes I know they will do my son no harm if they baptize him." Pere Jean poured the waters and named the child Francis Xavier. They returned to Notre Dame des Anges about ten o'clock. Le Jeune said to de Brebeuf kindly: "Mon pere, are you not very happy that you ended the day so well?" "Helas!" exclaimed de Brebeuf. "For this one single occassion I would travel all the way from France, I would cross the great ocean to win one little soul for Our Lord."

pg 108-109
In January, de Brebeuf learned that a Montagnais named Sasousmat was very sick. He was the younger brother of Peter and Mestigoit with whom Le Jeune was wintering. the man was in a death coma, and Pere Jean related, "we made a resolution, the other priests and I, to offer to God the Sacrifice of the Mass the next day in honor of the glorious St Joseph, patron of New France, for the salvation and conversion of this poor savage." Early the next morning, at Mass time, Sasousmat became conscious. He continued to live and as often as Pere Jean visited him begged to be instructed so that he could be baptized. On January 26, he fell into a stuport, and de Brebeuf, fearing that he would die, conferred the Sacrament on him and gave him the name of Francis Xavier. Sasousmat regained consciousness and was overjoyed when he learned he had been made a Christian. He lingered for two days praying continually, and he died on January 28.

pg 109
Their old friend Manitougache, whom they called La Nasee, was brought to the Jesuit house by his wife and daughter. He was sick and wanted to be treated as was Sasousmat. De Brebeuf brought him in when he found that the man was apparently near death. They began a novena of prayers to Saint Joseph for his conversion. Manitougache had often listened to the teachings of de Brebeuf and the others, but never expressed any desire for baptism. As the novena advanced, he seemed to have a spiritual quickening. After a month of instructions, Pere de Brebeuf believed that Manitougache was ready for baptism. He performed the ceremony on April 3 and gave him the name of Joseph. He lingered on, though desperately ill. One thing he desired before he died, to see his old friend Pere Le Jeune.
On April 9, Palm Sunday morning, about three o'clock, de Brebeuf was wakened by resounding thumps on the door and by shouts of Le Jeune.
...
On Easter Saturday, Joseph Manitougache, the second adult Christian, died piously in the Jesuit residence.



Offline Boomerang

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #27 on: July 28, 2026, 03:50:11 AM »

Quote
https://archive.org/details/saintamonghurons0000unse/page/98/mode/2up
Saint among the Hurons : the life of Jean de Brébeuf by Francis Talbot, S.J.

pg 123
With the sickness came the sorcerers and medicine men, and all the humbuggery, incantations and orgies that he had so often witnessed. He was now better equipped to oppos the Oquis and to expose their absurd claims and hysterical remedies. He, with Daniel or Davost, visited all the nearby cabins day by day, and observed carefully those whome he might salvage before death. His first baptism was a five-month-old girl baby, in the cabin of Houtaya, a friendly and influential old man. She died on September 6, and went to heaven with the name of Josepha. The next day, he won the consent of a chief to baptize his two-year-old daughter; she was named Maria, and died four days later.

pg123-124
On October 20, de Brebeuf went on a visit to the Petuns, a people of the same stock as the Hurons, but a distinct nation. His journey was some fifty miles along the trails to the south and west, around the curve of the lake. Primarily, he wished to renew acquaintance with them, to establish pledges of friendship, and to prepare the way for missioners. He was cordially received in their principal villages, and had the consolation of baptizing three children before death took them. By November 20, he was back in Ihonatiria.
During his absence, Pere Daniel had baptized two of his old friends, both in danger of death. One named Joseph had died, but the other, Houtaya, also called Joseph and like old Maria attributed his cure to the baptism. Added to these was Tsindacaiendoua, a man of eighty, who de Brebeuf described as "one of the best-natured Hurons I have ever known." He lingered in his last illness and professed belief in all that Echon taught him. At his request, de Brebeuf baptized him with the name of Joachim and persuaded him to promise that he would tell his relatives he wished to be buried in the French way. Remembering the deep effect of a Christian burial on the Montagnais, de Brebeuf hoped now to impress the Hurons. when Joachim died, his body was carried to Echon's cabin...

pg125
On his return to Ihonatiria, he was overjoyed with the increasing prospects of a Huron church. A sickly young man, Oatii, who had been well tended by the French, sought baptism. De Brebeuf christened him with all solemnity in the chapel. The Hurons again gasped in admiration at the French ways, and many sought to be treated like Joseph Oatii. On April 14, for the first time in the Huron land, Pere de Brebeuf administered Extreme Unction to Joseph and, on his death, conducted the full Catholic ritual in his burial.


Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2026, 09:52:31 AM »
I admit I'm not very well versed in the Feeneyite question, but it does seem to me that this kind of thing is ad-hoc, circular reasoning.

The obvious stress case that would occur to anyone against the Feeneyite position is "What about a devout catechumen who dies before his baptism?"

The two positions I've seen are:

1. God would prevent that from ever happening or provide baptism of water through some means (this thread)

2. If it did happen, he wasn't elect, so he would've fallen away or been damned anyhow.

Now it seems quite impossible that with 2000 years and billions upon billions of people, there hasn't been *one* single elect catechumen who died before baptism of water.

Those two arguments are just bad arguments, you could use them to justify anything (e.g "one sacrilegious communion means you're a reprobate"), since they're circular and unfalsifiable.



This is much more subjective, I get why Feeneytism exist given the abuses allowed under baptism of desire and invincible ignorance, but in my opinion it makes God out to be one of those classic odious bureaucrats we've all met at some point rather than a proper judge, it makes it seem like Moses, Solomon and even Sancho Panza were better judges who used epikeia.

Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2026, 09:57:04 PM »
Bp. Williamson read us a letter in seminary from one of the SSPX priests in India:

The priest was in the hospital tending to a sick lady.  Some guy flagged the priest down across the hall.  After tending to the lady, the priest went to the man.  The man was pagan, but wanted to be baptized. The priest asked him the necessary questions and baptized him.  The man died that same night. Bp. Williamson actually read us the letter from the priest.