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Author Topic: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water  (Read 1258 times)

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2026, 09:55:21 AM »
Father Feeney and Father Wathen are correct. 

Offline OABrownson1876

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2026, 10:36:53 PM »
I guess what confuses me though is you could reject baptism of desire but still reject EENS by your understanding by believing Protestants and Orthodox can be saved

and then on the other hand you can accept BOD for catechumens only (even though most people don’t) and from your perspective this wouldn’t go against EENS (even if it could be wrong)

one question I have, do you put baptism of blood in the same category as baptism of desire?  It doesn’t seem to have the same potential EENS issues, and I have a friend (whos Orthodox, and more knowledgeable on patristics than me) that seems to think baptism of desire is debatable but that baptism of blood is just clear cut in the fathers.  What’s your thought?
But oftentimes the Fathers and theologians refer to a baptism of blood in the case of martyrdom, yet the person has clearly been previously baptized with water.  It is metaphorical speech.  I have heard basketball coaches tell their teams, "You guys are going up against the toughest defense you will face, a real baptism of fire." It is a metaphor.   


Offline Boomerang

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #22 on: Yesterday at 03:28:38 AM »
The Doctrinal Conflict
The core of the controversy lies in how the Church understands the necessity of Baptism for salvation.
  • The Traditional Teaching: The Church has always taught that Baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the Church has also consistently taught that this necessity is not limited strictly to the Sacrament of Baptism (Baptism of Water) in cases where the Sacrament cannot be received.

    • Baptism of Blood: When a catechumen or an unbaptized person suffers martyrdom for the Faith, they are washed clean of their sins by their own blood.
    • Baptism of Desire: When a person, having perfect contrition for their sins and a sincere desire to do God's will, is prevented by death or impossibility from receiving the Sacrament of Baptism, they are considered to have received the grace of the Sacrament.
    St. Thomas Aquinas explains this clearly: "The sacrament of Baptism may be wanting to anyone in reality, but not in desire: for instance, when a man wishes to be baptized, but by some misfortune he is forestalled by death before receiving baptism. And such a man can obtain salvation without being actually baptized, on account of his desire for Baptism" 1.
  • The Position of Father Feeney: Father Feeney argued that the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus must be interpreted to mean that only those who are physically baptized with water in the Catholic Church can be saved. He rejected the concepts of Baptism of Blood and Baptism of Desire, labeling them as modern innovations that contradicted the absolute necessity of the Sacrament.
The Church's Response
The Holy Office, under the authority of Pope Pius XII, addressed this error directly in the letter Suprema haec sacra (1949), addressed to the Archbishop of Boston.
  • Rejection of Rigid Literalism: The Holy Office clarified that while the dogma Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus is infallible, it must be understood correctly. It does not require that a person be actually incorporated into the Church as a member in order to be saved, provided they have an "implicit" desire for such incorporation.
  • The Letter's Teaching: The letter states: "For it is not always required that a person be incorporated into the Church actually by baptism, but it is required that he at least desire and wish for it by a desire and a wish which is informed by perfect charity, so that he may be made like to the Church" 2.
  • Condemnation: Because Father Feeney persisted in his error and refused to submit to the authority of the Holy Office, he was excommunicated in 1953.
Theological Assessment
From the perspective of Catholic Tradition, "Feeneyism" is considered a theological error because it attempts to restrict the infinite mercy of God and the efficacy of His grace to the physical administration of the Sacrament, ignoring the Church's long-standing teaching on the votum (desire) for the Sacrament.
The Church teaches that God is not bound by His Sacraments, even though we are bound to them. As the Council of Trent defined: "Justification... cannot be effected without the laver of regeneration or the desire for it" 3. By rejecting the "desire for it," the Feeneyite position contradicts the teaching of the Council of Trent and the constant tradition of the Church Fathers and Doctors.

BTW if you're into Feeneyism does it mean you believe the Church erred this matter with Pope Pius XII, or do you believe the seat was vacant with Pope Pius XII?
 
Where did the quoted text come from (is it your writing, or quoted from someone else)?

As for you last question on "Feenyism", Pope Pius XII was a true pope. As to contradictions between what the Church teaches and Pope Pius XII's allocution to midwives, etc., either it is only an apparent contradiction, and only requires proper explanation to resolve (e.g. everyone using Pope Pius IX's Quanto Conficiamur Moerore to push invincible ignorance as salvific, when it is simply that God will lead all men of good will to the Church). Or if there is a true contradiction, then the later "teaching" would not fall under the circuмstances of infallibility (the allocution to midwives was not taught to the whole Church).  A Pope is only infallible under the below circuмstances (Vatican I, Session 4, Chapter 4):
  • in the exercise of his office as shepherd and teacher of all Christians,
  • in virtue of his supreme apostolic authority,
  • he defines a doctrine concerning faith or morals to be held by the whole church,

The laity have a right to judge a teaching when it contradicts what has already been given to them (Galations 1:8)

As for this quote:

Quote
The Traditional Teaching: The Church has always taught that Baptism is necessary for salvation. However, the Church has also consistently taught that this necessity is not limited strictly to the Sacrament of Baptism (Baptism of Water) in cases where the Sacrament cannot be received.

That is not the teaching of the Church.

Council Trent, Seventh Session, On Baptism
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

The syllogism of this is:
Major premise: Baptism is necessary for salvation. (Council of Trent, Seventh Session, On Baptism Canon V)
Minor premise: The matter of the sacrament of baptism is true and natural water. (Council of Trent, Seventh Session, On Baptism Canon II)
Conclusion: Baptism of true and natural water is necessary for salvation.

A Sacrament is not effected without valid matter. The Church has not taught that blood or desire are valid matter for Baptism. Therefore baptisms of blood or desire are not valid Baptisms, therefore the recipients are not saved when that is the only baptism they are alleged to have received.

Offline Boomerang

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #23 on: Yesterday at 03:29:49 AM »
Quote
https://archive.org/details/saintamongsavage0000talb
Saint among savages; the life of Isaac Jogues by Francis Talbot, S.J.

pg273-274
Father Jogues hovered about the torture platform all that day, and mingled with [the captives] during the night when they were allowed some rest in one of the cabins. He did not know their language, but he secured the help of a Algonquin woman who as a Christian and through her instructed them and gained their consent to be baptized. He poured the saving waters over their heads Easter Sunday, before they were led out of the cabins once more for the final tortures. Though he was sickened that day by the cruelties that he steeled himself to witness, he could rejoice that God, in His Providence, had deigned to save the souls of the prisoners, though he permitted their bodies to die in the flames.

pg 285
Once when he had entered a cabin in one of the villages to inquire about the sick, he heard his name called from the darkness of a corner. Going over, he found a young man desperately ill.
"Onedessonk," the sick young man exclaimed, "do you not know me?"
"I do not remember ever having seen you before," Father Jogues replied.
"Do you not remember well the favor I did you at the entrance into the country of the Iroquois?" the man questioned.
"But what favor did you do me?" asked Jogues, puzzled.
"Don't you remember the man who cut your bonds, in the third village of the Agniernon Iroquoism when you were at the end of your strength?" he continued.
"Of course I remember that very well. That man put me in his debt very, very much. I have never been able to thank him. I beg you, give me some news of him, if you are acquainted with him."
"It was I, myself, who did it. It was I who took pity on you and loosed you."
Father Jogues bent over the sick man and embraced him. "But oh, how sad I am to see you in this pitiable condition!" he exclaimed.
"How much I regret that I am unable to help you in your sickness! I never knew who you were. Nevertheless, I have often prayed for you to the great Master of our lives. You see that I am in great poverty. Despite that, I shall do you a greater favor than you did to me."
Father Jogues told the dying man about God, of the happiness in the next life with God for those who believed, of what it was necessary to believe in order to be baptized and made happy forever after death. The man listened with attention. With deep sincerity, he begged for baptism and for the happiness Ondessonk promised him. Father Jogues poured on his head the water of salvation. While he prayed beside the mat, a few hours later, the man died peacefully.

pg 287
These savages, I must confess, unwillingly and reluctantly have thus far spared me, by the will of God, so that thus through me, although unworthy, they might be instructed, they might believe, and be baptized, as many of them as are preordained for eternal life. From the time that I was captured, I have baptized seventy children, adults and old persons, belonging to five different nations and langauages, "so that from every tribe, tongue and people, they might stand in the sight of the Lord."

Offline Stubborn

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Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #24 on: Yesterday at 05:29:49 AM »

Baptism of Blood: When a catechumen or an unbaptized person suffers martyrdom for the Faith, they are washed clean of their sins by their own blood.

Make this ^ not contradict the dogmas below.....

"We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins." - Unam Sanctam

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” [Matt. 25:41], unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church." - Council of Florence