Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water  (Read 922 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Soubirous

  • Supporter
Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #10 on: Yesterday at 02:40:19 PM »
Thanks for the references

IIRC, I think it was with the NA Martyrs, converts dying soon after baptism was so common that some tribes actually thought that baptism was killing them..and that led them to persecuting the missionaries

Perfect example of causal fallacy among those who are so self-debased that they refuse even the natural virtues including that of clear reason.

The accounts of the North American Martyrs should be required reading for all U.S. and Canadian teens and any children mature enough to deal with the carnage and treachery inflicted by some of these natives. (For the girls, there's the bio of Kateri Tekakwitha, declared venerable by Pope Pius XII.)

That way we might have fewer "on stolen land" propagandists and Kool-aid drinkers, and thereby fewer repeaters of the mantra of all-good-heathens-go-to-heaven.

Offline Soubirous

  • Supporter
Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #11 on: Yesterday at 03:08:01 PM »
>Baptism of Water EXISTS for deathbed!
>Therefore Baptism of Desire DOESN'T EXIST!!
Come on. The logic is so poor. :facepalm:

We know with absolute certainty that Baptism of Water does exist, whether deathbed or sooner.

Whether BoD does or does not exist is known with absolute certainty only by God (maybe by the angels and saints too) and of course by those particular affected souls at a point-of-no-return, as it were.

Note that I didn't claim that BoD does not exist. But as a baptized Catholic, of what business of mine is it to insist that it does? With regard to the souls of others, do I have the right to tell the unbaptized that it's no big deal, just be nice and all will be fine?

When considering points of contention w.r.t. the eternal teachings of the One True Faith, always ask cui bono, if only cui bono in this mortal life in this vale of tears. In that, the logic is unavoidable, and the honest answer might shock like a bucket of ice water.


Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #12 on: Yesterday at 06:44:44 PM »
We know with absolute certainty that Baptism of Water does exist, whether deathbed or sooner.

Whether BoD does or does not exist is known with absolute certainty only by God (maybe by the angels and saints too) and of course by those particular affected souls at a point-of-no-return, as it were.

Note that I didn't claim that BoD does not exist. But as a baptized Catholic, of what business of mine is it to insist that it does? With regard to the souls of others, do I have the right to tell the unbaptized that it's no big deal, just be nice and all will be fine?

When considering points of contention w.r.t. the eternal teachings of the One True Faith, always ask cui bono, if only cui bono in this mortal life in this vale of tears. In that, the logic is unavoidable, and the honest answer might shock like a bucket of ice water.

So, I have said also that, at the very least, God has not revealed (directly) the existence of a BoD.  Then, even if one could argue theologically in favor of a hypothetical BoD, there's no evidence that anyone has ever been saved by said BoD (no, the putative BoB incidents do not prove BoD).

But, as I have also said ... along the lines of a Pascal's wager scenario ... IF there's such a thing as a BoD, and God has willed to save some souls this way ... then my lack of belief in it means nothing, and would not have prevented that soul's salvation.  Now, on the other hand, if there ISN'T a BoD, then some souls could easily be lost on account of BoD theory because it could lessen their zeal to receive the actual Sacrament of Baptism.  How much more ardently would a soul desire the Sacrament if in fact he believed it was his only chance at salvation?  On the other hand, could substituting the desire for Baptism with a desire for the desire for Baptism actually still "count" or would it ironically undermine the possibility of salvation by ACTUAL BoD.

Finally, without BoD, the modern heretical ecclesiology and soteriology, where Jews, Muslims, Hindus in Tibet, etc. can be saved ... would not be possible without being recognized as directly contradicting EENS dogma.

BoD has been used as THE weapon to gradually undermine EENS, lead to religious indifferentism, and lead to the Vatican II ecclesiology.

If I were elected Pope (or selected by God, that is), one of THE FIRST actions I would take would be to forbid all Catholics from ever mentioning BoD again, and I would require the addition to the Creeds, both the Nicene and the Apostles, a phrase or sentence affirming belief in Baptism, without which there can be no salvation.  I would then pray and study about whether it needs to be condemned as grave error or possibly even heresy.

Offline Ladislaus

  • Supporter
Re: God provides: Stories of God providing deathbed Baptism of water
« Reply #13 on: Yesterday at 06:48:29 PM »
Thanks for the references

IIRC, I think it was with the NA Martyrs, converts dying soon after baptism was so common that some tribes actually thought that baptism was killing them..and that led them to persecuting the missionaries

Sure ... though of course they also DECIDED that they WANTED to think that, a form of confirmation bias, since some were rejecting the truth.

I mean, if someone lay dying, on the verge of death, and expected to die, it would be absurd to conclude that the Baptism "in extremis" was the CAUSE of their death, vs. if the priest had baptized perfectly health individuals and they just dropped dead unexpectedly.  In fact, if sufficient cases of the latter had existed, and I'm sure they had, then only the deliberately dishonest, attempting to smear the Christians / Catholics, would have made up that nonsense just to turn the people against them.

Offline Boomerang

  • Supporter

Quote
https://archive.org/details/saintamongsavage0000talb
Saint among savages; the life of Isaac Jogues by Francis Talbot, S.J.

pg 130
"We had no special plan to go to this village of St. Thomas rather than to any other," they remarked, "but since we had accepted what company the savages offered, and since we followed them thither, there is no doubt but that we arrived where God was leading us for the salvation of a predestined soul which awaited nothing but our arrival in order to die in all its earthly miseries." They had finished their supper and were conversing with their hosts, when a young man entered and asked the Blackrobes to visit his mother who was sick. "We go thither," they exclaim, "and find the poor woman in the last extremities. She was instructed, and happily received, with the Faith, the grace of Baptism. Shortly after that, she beheld herself in the glory of heaven. In that whole village there was only that one who had need of our help."
From St. Thomas, the deep-dug trails led to farther Petun towns. They did not linger long in these places except to visit any who were ill. They had the joy of baptizing some few children and some adults who were near death.

pg 130-131
In the second week of November they to Ehwae, the capital village, which they dedicated to Sts. Pierre et Paul. They pushed through the stockade and into one of the cabins. There they found a child of five years sick unto death. His parents, of the Neutral nation, were forced by starvation to come to Ehwae and beg food. When Jogues and Garnier learned that the life of the child had been despaired of for several days, they exclaimed: "Out of 45 or 50 cabins, without intending it, we first visited the cabin in which this little stranger was. We baptized him, and straightaway he was freed from his exile and was happy in the land of his new nativity. Here are the first fruits of this nation of the Neutrals, and this child was the first one of them to be sprinkled by the blood of Jesus Christ."

pg 131
"There is hardly any corn in this village of Ehwae," the missioners reported, "and nevertheless, almost every day some Attiwandarons arrive, bands of men, women, and children, all pale and disfigured, whom the famine drives hither. Fleeing from the famine, they here find death; rather, here they find a blessed life, for we see to it that not one dies without baptism. Among these people was a little child about one year old, which looked more like a monster than a human being. It was happily baptized. God preserved its life only by a miracle, it would seem, so that it might be washed in the blood of Jesus Christ and might bless His mercies forever."