Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 313202 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2021, 08:19:59 AM »
Quote
In virtue of the fundamental principle that the faculties, habits, and acts are specified by their object, in the definition of free will we must consider its specifying object, and say with the Thomists that liberty is the dominating indifference of the will with regard to good proposed to it by the reason as not in every respect good. The essence of liberty consists in the dominating indifference of the will with regard to every object proposed by the reason as at the moment good in one aspect, and not good in another, according to the formula of St. Thomas: "If the will is offered an object that is not good from every point of view, it will not tend to this of necessity."16 There is then indifference in willing or not willing this object, a potential indifference in the faculty and an actual indifference in the free act which is not necessarily inclined toward it. Even when, in fact, the will actually wills this object, when it is already determined to will this, it is still inclined freely toward this with a dominating indifference that is no longer potential but actual. In like manner, the divine liberty that is already determined maintains us in existence. Liberty therefore arises from the infinite disproportion prevailing between the will that is specified by universal good, and a particular good which is good in one aspect, not good or insufficient in another. The Thomists also say in opposition to Suarez, that not even by His absolute power can God move our will of necessity to will a certain object, the indifference of judgment remaining as it is, so long as we judge the object to be good in one aspect and not so in another. The reason is that it implies a contradiction for the will to will of necessity the object proposed to it by the intellect as indifferent or as absolutely out of proportion to its scope.17


Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 321). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.


God wills that man be a being capable of choosing. Man has what is called a “dominating indifference,” which is potential before acting and actual when a choice is made. Every “free” choice a man makes could be other: there is always a pro or con to every choice a man makes: if I overeat I get the additional pleasure overeating provides, but I gain excessive weight and may suffer health consequences, etc.

God wills that all of man’s choices on earth have a pro or con aspect, and man is attracted in some sense to both alternatives presented to his choice. Man’s choice is “free” because it could be other or different, and his will is attracted to two (or more) possible alternatives, all having pros or cons. In a true sense, a man’s choice is therefore not compelled or necessary, since there is in man a desire for the alternative (there is a pro in the choice not taken), which is a real potential choice.

Thus, a “dominating indifference” means that before choosing a man is dominated by an “indifference” in the sense that man has an attraction to both or all alternative choices, and this dual attraction is governing or dominating his nature: the fact that each possibility or choice has a pro or con to him before choosing requires a weighing or decision to opt for one or the other, and a healthy man not subject to some mental or other defect is dominated or ruled by this condition which is essential to his nature. There is “indifference” in the sense that all alternatives are the same (not different) in having a pro or con aspect.

Before a decision is made between options, this dominating indifference is potential (it has not been reduced to an actual choice), and can be called a potential dominating indifference; when the choice is made, this dominating indifference in man’s nature is activated by the choice and becomes actual, or an “active dominating indifference.”

Thus, even if the good action or choice made by the elect is necessarily caused by God in the sense that it could not be other, it remains a free action because the alternative choice or action is a real possibility that is apparent to the man acting: if God causes me to pray the Rosary on a Sunday afternoon I am aware that I could be watching a football game (and I am also attracted to that option), an alternative act or choice, which is a real possibility or choice; in fact, some other men are not praying the Rosary and watching the football game instead.

Thus, a man’s acts are “contingent” in the sense that they could be other, despite God causing the act and making the dominating indifference actual. A man’s freedom lies in actions that are “contingent;” they represent one action among other possible actions. Thus, man’s “free” acts are acts done with a contingent necessity.

Consider, on the other hand, things that happen without a necessity that does not involve the will, and which are not contingent. An animal must die and its life come to an end; a rock dropped from cliff must fall, etc. It is not possible or contingent that an animal not die or a rock not fall when dropped from a height.

But a man’s praying or watching football, even if the action were determined by God, would still be a contingent action because it could be other, as is clear in the nature of the case of their being alternatives that are real and possible.

Certain acts of the elect, although infallibly determined by God, are contingently necessary, and in that  contingency is their “freedom.”

Think of it this way: God wills that the elect, those who have faith and perform just actions, be aware of the alternatives, possible rejection of Him or other “bad” actions for some other, lesser good (the “pros” attached to them), because He wills that the objects of His grace believe and act with full cognizance of the good and blessings He is working in them, which is brought home by virtue of their awareness of the alternative actions and an ultimate fate that is a real possibility for them and their kind: some men do make wrong choices and are damned. 

Man’s “freedom” is inherent in his nature, in the possibilities he lives with and chooses among.  As St. Thomas says, God determines our actions, but He also determines that things act according to their natures. For man, that means acting freely, which means acting with awareness of other real choices and possibilities, other alternatives, that are rejected or not taken.

For St. Thomas, man’s will is free because it is subject to a “contingent” necessity and an inherent, essential ability to choose that is in His nature, put there by God, whose image man is. Freedom is in possibilities, and alternative choices and fates are possible to man  as a distinct and unique creature of God (and exhibited in the divergent choices of distinct, individual men).

Libertarian free will, the possibility of man doing whatever he wants without any constraint (even from God), is the “free will” of the humanists (and I think Satan); it is not Thomistic freedom.

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2021, 10:33:19 AM »

God wills that man be a being capable of choosing. Man has what is called a “dominating indifference,” which is potential before acting and actual when a choice is made. Every “free” choice a man makes could be other: there is always a pro or con to every choice a man makes: if I overeat I get the additional pleasure overeating provides, but I gain excessive weight and may suffer health consequences, etc.

There are several more distinctions that help clarify the point under consideration.

To begin with, good is the object of the will, and truth is the object of the intellect.  The two operations of the will are to desire and to chose; the to operations of the intellect are to consider and to judge.

The Practical Good: Now, within man there is a sensitive appetite (the desires of the flesh), and an intellectual appetite (the judgements of reason).  Our free will stands midway between the two and has the ability to choose either.  For example, our lower nature desires to eat the cherry pie, while our intellect judges that we should eat the vegetables.  In the end, we chose (second act of the will) one or the other. This is the battle between the lower nature and higher nature - the flesh and the spirit - that St. Paul speaks of in Romans, chapter 8. 

This act of the will pertains directly to choosing a practical good (I should do this, and not do that) not to a speculative good, that is, to a truth (I should believe this, and not believe that).

Antecedent and Consequent Actual Grace: Another distinction is between antecedent actual grace and consequent actual grace.  Antecedent grace enlightens the mind to the truth and moves the will to choose the good.  If the person chooses in accord with the antecedent grace, consequent actual grace is given to help the person carry out the good.

The Speculative Good, or Truth: Now, just as some acts pertain directly to the practical good (I should do this and not that), others pertain directly to the the speculative good, or to the truth (I should believe this and not that).  The intellect and will, and the two forms of actual grace, are both involved in this act as well.  Let's use an example to illustrate the point

A Moslem hears the Gospel peached.  He is given an antecedent actual grace which 1) provides his mind with the light to "see" the truth and 2) moves his will to believe it (belief involves a choice of the will).

Yet, at the same time, the Moslem thinks to himself, if I accept this truth, I will have to convert to Catholicism, and if I do that, I will be disowned by my family and possibly be put to death.  He is left with three possibilities:

1) He can embrace the truth in spite of the consequences, at which point he will be given consequent actual grace to help him carry it out. 

2) He can accept the truth interiorly without revealing it publicly ("if he will not confess Me before men, neither will I confess him before My Father"; "he who loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me").

3) Or, since the will remains free, he can refuse to believe the truth.

God never forces the will to choose the good or to believe the truth, but he gives everyone the antecedent actual grace needed to make the right choice.


Quote
Thus, even if the good action or choice made by the elect is necessarily caused by God in the sense that it could not be other, it remains a free action because the alternative choice or action is a real possibility that is apparent to the man acting: if God causes me to pray the Rosary on a Sunday afternoon I am aware that I could be watching a football game (and I am also attracted to that option), an alternative act or choice, which is a real possibility or choice;


God would only cause it in the sense of giving the antecedent actual grace that moved the person's will to desire to say the Rosary.  But the will nevertheless remains free to cooperate or not.  If his desire to watch the football game is greater than his desire to say the Rosary, you can bet that he will choose to say the Rosary after the game, or chose to not say it at all.


Quote
But a man’s praying or watching football, even if the action were determined by God, would still be a contingent action because it could be other, as is clear in the nature of the case of their being alternatives that are real and possible.


If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.



 


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2021, 11:08:23 AM »

There are several more distinctions that help clarify the point under consideration.

To begin with, good is the object of the will, and truth is the object of the intellect.  The two operations of the will are to desire and to chose; the to operations of the intellect are to consider and to judge.

The Practical Good: Now, within man there is a sensitive appetite (the desires of the flesh), and an intellectual appetite (the judgements of reason).  Our free will stands midway between the two and has the ability to choose either.  For example, our lower nature desires to eat the cherry pie, while our intellect judges that we should eat the vegetables.  In the end, we chose (second act of the will) one or the other. This is the battle between the lower nature and higher nature - the flesh and the spirit - that St. Paul speaks of in Romans, chapter 8. 

This act of the will pertains directly to choosing a practical good (I should do this, and not do that) not to a speculative good, that is, to a truth (I should believe this, and not believe that).

Antecedent and Consequent Actual Grace: Another distinction is between antecedent actual grace and consequent actual grace.  Antecedent grace enlightens the mind to the truth and moves the will to choose the good.  If the person chooses in accord with the antecedent grace, consequent actual grace is given to help the person carry out the good.

The Speculative Good, or Truth: Now, just as some acts pertain directly to the practical good (I should do this and not that), others pertain directly to the the speculative good, or to the truth (I should believe this and not that).  The intellect and will, and the two forms of actual grace, are both involved in this act as well.  Let's use an example to illustrate the point

A Moslem hears the Gospel peached.  He is given an antecedent actual grace which 1) provides his mind with the light to "see" the truth and 2) moves his will to believe it (belief involves a choice of the will).

Yet, at the same time, the Moslem thinks to himself, if I accept this truth, I will have to convert to Catholicism, and if I do that, I will be disowned by my family and possibly be put to death.  He is left with three possibilities:

1) He can embrace the truth in spite of the consequences, at which point he will be given consequent actual grace to help him carry it out. 

2) He can accept the truth interiorly without revealing it publicly ("if he will not confess Me before men, neither will I confess him before My Father"; "he who loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me").

3) Or, since the will remains free, he can refuse to believe the truth.

God never forces the will to choose the good or to believe the truth, but he gives everyone the antecedent actual grace needed to make the right choice.



God would only cause it in the sense of giving the antecedent actual grace that moved the person's will to desire to say the Rosary.  But the will nevertheless remains free to cooperate or not.  If his desire to watch the football game is greater than his desire to say the Rosary, you can bet that he will choose to say the Rosary after the game, or chose to not say it at all.



If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.



 

Roman Theo,

Hi. I'm not sure where you're coming from here. It sounds like there's disagreement with something I've written. Please specify the disagreement, as in quoting something and saying that's wrong, and give your reasons. It seems to me you're doing that, but it's not clear. Be precise so we can have some engagement.

If you don't disagree, and our only giving your thoughts, fine. It's just that I'm not sure.

Quote
If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.

Your not defining your terms. What do you mean by "forced"? What do you mean by "necessary"? There is such a thing as a contingent necessity, which is both contingent and necessary. It seems to me that you would reject that, and would reject any "necessity" to act in the sense of an action that is infallibly (as in, it will happen) predetermined by God. I would vigorously disagree with you, and I think St. Thomas and St. Augustine would as well, and I can cite them to prove it (or at last argue it with some support from them).

This will help: Do you agree with this? -


Quote
By a truly efficacious grace is meant one that will be (is) infallibly followed by the act to which it tends, e.g. contrition. If you receive such a grace, even before your will consents to it, that grace is infallibly “sure of success;” it will infallibly procure your consent, produce that act – of contrition.

Second question: is the action produced by the "efficacious grace" described in the quote "necessary" in your sense of necessary?

This will help flesh out for me where there are differences, and help me see where you're coming from.

Finally, are you quoting or relying on any other theologian or thinker, or is all of this your own thoughts? Are you quoting anyone? Seems like you are, but there's no citation.




Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2021, 01:32:32 PM »
Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 321). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

On https://libgen.is/ (current alias domains are libgen.rs, libgen.is, libgen.st) I found a collection of works of Garrigou-Lagrange, more than 7000 pages, including "Predestination".

Type "Garrigou-Lagrange" (without quotes).
Select "Search in Fields ... Author(s)"
Search!

The list of results has one entry: "Reverend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Collection"

https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Garrigou-Lagrange&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

Click on one of the Mirrors [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (at the right side of the entry) for the download-page.
To download, click the GET-Link, on top of the page.

It's an ePub-File of ~7MB.

I used https://www.freeconvert.com/epub-to-pdf, to create a searchable ~36MB PDF.

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2021, 02:55:14 PM »
On https://libgen.is/ (current alias domains are libgen.rs, libgen.is, libgen.st) I found a collection of works of Garrigou-Lagrange, more than 7000 pages, including "Predestination".

Type "Garrigou-Lagrange" (without quotes).
Select "Search in Fields ... Author(s)"
Search!

The list of results has one entry: "Reverend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Collection"

https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Garrigou-Lagrange&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

Click on one of the Mirrors [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (at the right side of the entry) for the download-page.
To download, click the GET-Link, on top of the page.

It's an ePub-File of ~7MB.

I used https://www.freeconvert.com/epub-to-pdf, to create a searchable ~36MB PDF.

Marion, 

Why would I do that? I have the book, Kindle version and paperback. 

Tell me your point, please. 

DR