Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 369628 times)

0 Members and 15 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #170 on: August 29, 2026, 07:28:30 AM »

Quote
Did Christ truly die for these children? If so, there must be a way to apply the Blood of Redemption to them, unless they themselves are at fault for refusing it.
See the part you’re missing is that many saints have said that unbaptized infants ARE AT FAULT for refusing grace, because GOD CAN SEE THE FUTURE where they reject His grace.  There, IN HIS INFINITE MERCY, He allows these babies to die unbaptized, where they go to Limbo.  Had they grown up, they’d be damned.  


God knows all, sees all, predicts all, plans all, orders all, controls all.  Stop trying to understand God.  He’s infinitely loving and infinitely merciful with EVERY human being He creates.  There is no person that gets screwed.  There’s no person than can claim unfairness.  

On the contrary, all those in hell will despair for the rest of eternity that they rejected God's innumerable mercies.  And those in Limbo will not despair but glorify God (whom they cannot see) for not being damned.  And those in heaven will both glorify and worship and adore God fully.   

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #171 on: August 29, 2026, 07:48:44 AM »
See the part you’re missing is that many saints have said that unbaptized infants ARE AT FAULT for refusing grace, because GOD CAN SEE THE FUTURE where they reject His grace.  There, IN HIS INFINITE MERCY, He allows these babies to die unbaptized, where they go to Limbo.  Had they grown up, they’d be damned. 


God knows all, sees all, predicts all, plans all, orders all, controls all.  Stop trying to understand God.  He’s infinitely loving and infinitely merciful with EVERY human being He creates.  There is no person that gets screwed.  There’s no person than can claim unfairness. 

On the contrary, all those in hell will despair for the rest of eternity that they rejected God's innumerable mercies.  And those in Limbo will not despair but glorify God (whom they cannot see) for not being damned.  And those in heaven will both glorify and worship and adore God fully. 

Yeah, Pax, we all know your view by now. 

What I said to Telling applies to you, and based on a history of hearing you opine, with even greater force:

Quote
But please don't insult my intelligence, make a mockery of logic and reason, and I might add of what we "know" from Revelation - what do we have to think beyond these tools when we discuss these things? . . . 


I don't mean to be hard on you, but this is serious business, and if we're going to discuss these things, we need to proceed with rigor and extrapolate from foundations of truth, and our process or procedure must also be sound (e.g., syllogistic reasoning or compliance with the laws of logic, the law of contradiction, the law of identity, the law of excluded middle, etc.).


Now, we've already addressed these things here, but we'll go at it again. You write:

Quote
See the part you’re missing is that many saints have said that unbaptized infants ARE AT FAULT for refusing grace, because GOD CAN SEE THE FUTURE where they reject His grace.  There, IN HIS INFINITE MERCY, He allows these babies to die unbaptized, where they go to Limbo.  Had they grown up, they’d be damned.

:facepalm:


And in His infinite, what, "not mercy," he lets some infants whom he also foresees will go on and commit mortal sin continue to live and commit mortal sin. 

So, using logic and reason - again, those, with what has been revealed, are the only tools we have - we see that God chooses some and takes them before they commit sins He foresees and let's other go on living to commit sins He also foresees.

Thus, now get this, He chooses some of these infants mercifully to send to Limbo, and others He doesn't choose, just as with adults. And yet all are in the same boat, from the perspective of their wills and conduct, future sinners. 

It just proves what St. Augustine, St. Thomas, St. Robert etc. have said as referred to in this thread: God chooses whom He wills, according to His preference, and nothing else. 

Not to mention the absurdity you have to go to to preserve God being bound by reacting to men's actions by your positing some men (these infants) doing what they don't do (sin) in a world that doesn't and will not exist, but which God somehow foresees anyway, despite its nonexistence.

Go ahead, Pax, go on emoting and "reasoning" based upon some inner wisdom that the rest of us - I might add, thank God - are not privy to. 

I have you on ignore and will likely not go around that buffer with your next post. 




Offline Pax Vobis

  • Supporter
Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #172 on: August 29, 2026, 11:44:33 AM »
Your problem is your reduce things to an either-or.  You discount A and then argue for B and ignore C and D.  My whole point is that when dealing with God, oftentimes He uses A, B, C and D all together.  I can’t explain it, nobody can.  But when you (or others) hyper focus on A or B, you’re missing the forest for the trees.  

God never said that we could understand anything related to salvation, which is a spiritual mystery.  All we can accept, through Faith, are doctrines.  But it’s hardly an explanation.  

Let me rephrase my objection to your speculations, as this latest from you - which amounts to a "I don't know" to my question (do all these infants dying before the sacrament of baptism receive this "baptism of blood"?) - provides more clarity to the basis of my objection.

snip
Recall that Indult Traditionalists, (1) unlike R&R and (2) Sedes (3) don't completely reject the Post Vatican II Magisterium, (4) and even reject as a Heresy the idea that the Magisterium can totally defect or disappear, but (5) only distinguish between fallible and infallible decrees. https://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/cti_docuмents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070419_un-baptised-infants_en.html This study was put out under Pope Benedict XVI, and Pope John Paul II in the CCC said we can pray for e.g. Aborted Infants (estimated at 2 Billion Souls worldwide, clearly an important matter for the Church) that they may have received something like a Baptism of Blood in their last moments. Similarly, we can pray for parents who suffer unfortunate miscarriages (haven't looked it up, but probably 1 Billion or so also) that, owing to the tears and contrition of their parents, and their desire for the Baptism and Salvation of their children, God may intervene in order to give them the Grace of Baptism, in an extraordinary way. That's the current status of the issue.

"In its 1980 Instruction on Children’s Baptism, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed that: “with regard to children who die without having received Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as indeed she does in the funeral rite established for them”.[4]" While this is non-infallible and can be critiqued respectfully, there is still this point to remember on Religious Submission to non-infallible docuмents. From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obsequium_religiosum "Donum Veritatis also allows that, "When it comes to the question of interventions in the prudential order, it could happen that some Magisterial docuмents might not be free from all deficiencies." However “it would be contrary to the truth, if, proceeding from some particular cases, one were to conclude that the Church's Magisterium can be habitually mistaken in its prudential judgments.”

It acknowledges that a given theologian, "might have serious difficulties, for reasons which appear to him wellfounded, in accepting a non-irreformable magisterial teaching." In such a case "even if the doctrine of the faith is not in question, the theologian will not present his own opinions or divergent hypotheses as though they were non-arguable conclusions," and is to "refrain from giving untimely public expression to them," and "avoid turning to the mass media," but with a humble and teachable spirit it is his duty "to make known to the Magisterial authorities the problems raised by the teaching in itself, in the arguments proposed to justify it, or even in the manner in which it is presented," with "an intense and patient reflection on his part and a readiness, if need be, to revise his own opinions and examine the objections which his colleagues might offer him", prayerfully trusting "that if the truth really is at stake, it will ultimately prevail."

See the part you’re missing is that many saints have said that unbaptized infants ARE AT FAULT for refusing grace, because GOD CAN SEE THE FUTURE where they reject His grace.  There, IN HIS INFINITE MERCY, He allows these babies to die unbaptized, where they go to Limbo.  Had they grown up, they’d be damned. 


God knows all, sees all, predicts all, plans all, orders all, controls all.  Stop trying to understand God.  He’s infinitely loving and infinitely merciful with EVERY human being He creates.  There is no person that gets screwed.  There’s no person than can claim unfairness. 

On the contrary, all those in hell will despair for the rest of eternity that they rejected God's innumerable mercies.  And those in Limbo will not despair but glorify God (whom they cannot see) for not being damned.  And those in heaven will both glorify and worship and adore God fully. 
Quote some of those alleged passages from Saints. Let's see them. I've not looked at that before.

But such a Theory has its own Problems: (1) if that's the case, that God foreknew some souls were going to be damned and thus took their lives in infancy, why don't all the damned or at least many more of them die in infancy and go at least to limbo? (2) why do some grow to adulthood and then be damned, while others, who according to this Theory would infallibly be damned if they just grew up and lived long enough, are saved from damnation?

I'm not even saying it's a False Theory. I'm just saying every Theological Explanation/Theory has issues. It's unresolved. Differences of opinion are permitted. Fr. Ludwig Ott's text shows the state of the Question in the 1950s, pre-Vatican II. I just want to add one thing to that - I do think there is a Biblical Example, from Divine Revelation i.e. of Sanctification in the Womb. Namely, St. John the Baptist, through Our Lady, Mediatrix of All Graces, when St. Elizabeth basically prayed the Rosary to Her, in Luke 1:28-48, as St. Gabriel had first begun to do. Now, when they did this, the Holy Spirit fell upon John in the Womb, as Saint Gabriel had prophesied (Luke 1:15), showing Prayers like the Rosary can indeed cause the Holy Spirit, and thus the Grace of Baptism, to fall upon infants even in their mother's womb. This is what some Catholic Theologians have called vicarious baptism of desire, the desire of the parents supplying for the child, just like the faith of the parents suffices or supplies for the faith of the child even in ordinary Sacramental Baptism.

Contrary to erroneous rigorists, God wants us to love, hope and pray, as Saint Padre Pio, one of the Greatest Saints of recent times, who bore the Stigmata and said like 30 to 40 Rosaries (150 to 200 Decades) a day told us to do. There is Biblical Precedent, then, for the belief that Praying the Rosary can cause Children, even in their Mother's Womb, to be filled with the Holy Spirit before they die. It is a deeply interesting and fascinating question imo.

Lord have Mercy on us all.