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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 321210 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2025, 02:25:46 PM »
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Of course, according to traditional Catholic dogma, men are born into a state of condemnation even before they commit any mortal sins; that's called, "original sin."
Yes.  No man is promised, owed or can earn salvation, which is a gift from God.


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And to say God foresees the mortal sins that some infants might commit if they were permitted to grow to adulthood and die in mortal sin, and decides to end the lives of those infants early, is a speculation
No, it's not a speculation.  Many saints have said it's a fact.


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that just proves my main point: God chooses those infants as opposed to others
If by "chooses" you mean a type of predestination, then yes, there something called 'catholic predestination'.  But...this does not mean that God is "not fair" to the damned.  It simply means he is "more generous" in grace to those whom He knows will accept such.  As in the gospel of man who goes out and hires the idle laborers to work in the field.  Christ saves some men in the twilight of their lives, while others come into the Faith from birth. 

This is God's plan, but we can't say it's "unfair" to those laborers who rejected the offer to come work in the field.  The gospel does not mention how many laborers turned down the offer to work, but surely there were some.  And they were not saved.


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who he lets age and commit mortal sins and go to hell.
But you're denying actual grace here.  Everyone who commits a mortal sin was given the grace not to.  As St Paul tells us, infallibly, that God will not permit us to be tempted beyond our strength.  This is the doctrine of actual grace, which ALL MEN receive, every second of their life, whether catholic, protestant, jew, etc.  If anyone commits a mortal sin, it is their choice.  If they go to hell, it is ultimately their choice.


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Thus, He purely gratuitously favors one sinner who deserves hell over another whom He consigns to it.
God does not consign anyone to hell.  This is heresy.


You are denying free will; you are denying actual grace; you are denying God's salvific will.  You need a reality check.
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Online DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2025, 03:21:48 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 17, 2025, 02:25:46 PM
Yes.  No man is promised, owed or can earn salvation, which is a gift from God.

No, it's not a speculation.  Many saints have said it's a fact.

If by "chooses" you mean a type of predestination, then yes, there something called 'catholic predestination'.  But...this does not mean that God is "not fair" to the damned.  It simply means he is "more generous" in grace to those whom He knows will accept such.  As in the gospel of man who goes out and hires the idle laborers to work in the field.  Christ saves some men in the twilight of their lives, while others come into the Faith from birth. 

This is God's plan, but we can't say it's "unfair" to those laborers who rejected the offer to come work in the field.  The gospel does not mention how many laborers turned down the offer to work, but surely there were some.  And they were not saved.

But you're denying actual grace here.  Everyone who commits a mortal sin was given the grace not to.  As St Paul tells us, infallibly, that God will not permit us to be tempted beyond our strength.  This is the doctrine of actual grace, which ALL MEN receive, every second of their life, whether catholic, protestant, jew, etc.  If anyone commits a mortal sin, it is their choice.  If they go to hell, it is ultimately their choice.

God does not consign anyone to hell.  This is heresy.


You are denying free will; you are denying actual grace; you are denying God's salvific will.  You need a reality check.
 
Take a deep breathe. Relax.

Does God not consign people to hell? Is hell empty? Stop it. Again, take a deep breathe. God consigns men to hell for the sins they commit. 



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Offline Predestination2

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #92 on: March 17, 2025, 04:29:12 PM »
Quote from: Pax Vobis on March 17, 2025, 02:25:46 PM
Yes.  No man is promised, owed or can earn salvation, which is a gift from God.

No, it's not a speculation.  Many saints have said it's a fact.

If by "chooses" you mean a type of predestination, then yes, there something called 'catholic predestination'.  But...this does not mean that God is "not fair" to the damned.  It simply means he is "more generous" in grace to those whom He knows will accept such.  As in the gospel of man who goes out and hires the idle laborers to work in the field.  Christ saves some men in the twilight of their lives, while others come into the Faith from birth. 

This is God's plan, but we can't say it's "unfair" to those laborers who rejected the offer to come work in the field.  The gospel does not mention how many laborers turned down the offer to work, but surely there were some.  And they were not saved.

But you're denying actual grace here.  Everyone who commits a mortal sin was given the grace not to.  As St Paul tells us, infallibly, that God will not permit us to be tempted beyond our strength.  This is the doctrine of actual grace, which ALL MEN receive, every second of their life, whether catholic, protestant, jew, etc.  If anyone commits a mortal sin, it is their choice.  If they go to hell, it is ultimately their choice.

God does not consign anyone to hell.  This is heresy.


You are denying free will; you are denying actual grace; you are denying God's salvific will.  You need a reality check.
You are confusing sufficient and efficacious grace. Whatever you accuse decemRationis of you are accusing St Thomas and Fr Lagrange as well as a whole host of Dominican and a few Jesuit theologians of not to mention you implicitly condemn all the scotists. You have also dogmatised the molinist conception of free will. Which is by and large rejected by the majority of scholastics including the thomists scotists and Augustinians



You need a reality check.
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Online DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2025, 06:59:02 PM »
Quote from: Predestination2 on March 17, 2025, 04:29:12 PM
You are confusing sufficient and efficacious grace. Whatever you accuse decemRationis of you are accusing St Thomas and Fr Lagrange as well as a whole host of Dominican and a few Jesuit theologians of not to mention you implicitly condemn all the scotists. You have also dogmatised the molinist conception of free will. Which is by and large rejected by the majority of scholastics including the thomists scotists and Augustinians



You need a reality check.

And I've quoted many of them in this thread.

My fundamental thesis - and a major reason why I started this thread - is that the rot that has lead to the place we are in the Church post-V2 stems from a dilution and perversion of the purer doctrines of grace which, indeed,  can be traced in a strong line from Scripture, through St. Augustine,  and then to St. Thomas (and others you note). 

Fr. Feeney famously noted the diminution of EENS,  and then the perverse extensions of BoD. Those, in my view, are symptoms of a disease whose cause goes more essentially to a diminution of Predestination and the stricter doctrines of grace, i.e., how God saves. The necessity of "fairness" to man keeps broadening and broadening, 

If salvation is simply in man's hands  and must be to be fair, it is easily seen how one moves from the necessity of being Catholic, to then any "Christian" with faith in Christ, then to non-Christian monotheists, and then, in the Novus Ordo Church, even to atheists of "good will." You see, all men must have a chance, no matter how they were raised, where they were born, etc.  Otherwise God is unjust and . . . 

But if you recognize that God has elected those predestined to salvation, the objection to them all being Catholic evaporates. There is no basis for accusations of injustice if the ultimate determinate is not man's choice, his free will. If it is, as Pax maintains, then of course one can question how it's "fair" for a Mayan, or Incan, etc. who has never heard of Christ to go to hell - what choice did they have if they didn't reject Christ, but never even heard of him? Or someone, as JPII says in one of his encyclicals, whose cultural upbringing and circuŠ¼stances "prevent" them from formally converting to Christ, etc. 

If God determines the person and the means,  ther is simply no rational objection for His choice that it be via the Catholic Church, baptism,  etc. - the choice, after all, being His, and at His own discretion.  
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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2025, 07:32:33 PM »

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You are confusing sufficient and efficacious grace.
No, not at all.  
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