Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants (Read 280100 times)

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #75 on:** September 07, 2023, 07:13:10 PM »

Scripture's infallible teaching that God gives all men sufficient grace does not lead to V2 errors.

I already pointed out that JP2 garbled this truth and corrupted it for ecuмenical purposes.

The point you miss is the Eternal goodness of God's Providence, who sees all things - past, present and future - at the same time. So, for an infant who dies, God forsaw the graces this infant WOULD RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE, and reject them, so He took their life early, so to prevent damnation.

The above is an example of Gods mercy, not a denial of Scripture.

Kazimierz · « **Reply #76 on:** September 07, 2023, 07:21:18 PM »

That God's wills all to be saved - condition for the possibility. God has provided the means for salvation, but one can still reject His grace.

Unless you follow Rahner, where you are so overwhelmed by grace via the supernatural existential, you CANNOT say no. I called it "damned to salvation."

Motorede · « **Reply #77 on:** September 07, 2023, 08:06:46 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus on September 07, 2023, 04:06:21 PM

St. Augustine:

Where can I find this quote? Confessions? City of God? Thanks

DecemRationis · « **Reply #78 on:** September 07, 2023, 08:19:29 PM »

Quote from: Motorede on September 07, 2023, 08:06:46 PM

Where can I find this quote? Confessions? City of God? Thanks

The quote in full, with source, is here:

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-sacred-catholic-liturgy-chant-prayers/god's-salvific-will-to-save-'all-men'-and-the-death-of-unbaptized-infants/msg803733/#msg803733

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #79 on:** September 07, 2023, 08:41:28 PM »

Saint Fulgentius:

“Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
-2 Timothy 2:4

“Nevertheless, these “all men” whom God wishes to save include not the entire human race altogether, but rather the totality of those who are to be saved.

So the word “all” is mentioned because the divine kindness saves all kinds from among all men, that is, from every race, status, and age, from every language and every region.”

-St Fulgentius of Ruspe-Correspondence on Christology and Grace.

AnthonyPadua · « **Reply #80 on:** September 07, 2023, 09:51:21 PM »

This text is very relevant.

https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/an-historical-and-theological-survey-of-the-catholic-doctrine-of-predestination/msg902568/?topicseen#msg902568

Ladislaus · « **Reply #81 on:** September 07, 2023, 10:27:45 PM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on September 07, 2023, 08:41:28 PM

Saint Fulgentius:

“Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
-2 Timothy 2:4

“Nevertheless, these “all men” whom God wishes to save include not the entire human race altogether, but rather the totality of those who are to be saved.

So the word “all” is mentioned because the divine kindness saves all kinds from among all men, that is, from every race, status, and age, from every language and every region.”

-St Fulgentius of Ruspe-Correspondence on Christology and Grace.

Interesting quote. I haven't seen this one before.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #82 on:** September 07, 2023, 10:40:00 PM »

Quote from: AnthonyPadua on September 07, 2023, 08:41:28 PM

Saint Fulgentius:

“Who will have all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
-2 Timothy 2:4

“Nevertheless, these “all men” whom God wishes to save include not the entire human race altogether, but rather the totality of those who are to be saved.

So the word “all” is mentioned because the divine kindness saves all kinds from among all men, that is, from every race, status, and age, from every language and every region.”

-St Fulgentius of Ruspe-Correspondence on Christology and Grace.

St. Fulgentius's view thus accords with the first two of the three senses in which 2 Tim 2:4 may be understood according to St. Thomas:

Quote

Reply to Objection 1. The words of the Apostle, "God will have all men to be saved," etc. can be understood in three ways.

First, by a restricted application, in which case they would mean, as Augustine says (De praed. sanct. i, 8: Enchiridion 103), "God wills all men to be saved that are saved, not because there is no man whom He does not wish saved, but because there is no man saved whose salvation He does not will."

Secondly, they can be understood as applying to every class of individuals, not to every individual of each class; in which case they mean that God wills some men of every class and condition to be saved, males and females, Jєωs and Gentiles, great and small, but not all of every condition.

trad123 · « **Reply #83 on:** September 07, 2023, 10:50:58 PM »

1 Timothy 2:4

DecemRationis · « **Reply #84 on:** September 10, 2023, 07:41:52 AM »

Quote

St. Augustine

On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants (Book I)

Chapter 30.— Why One is Baptized and Another Not, Not Otherwise Inscrutable.

Now those very persons, who think it unjust that infants which depart this life without the grace of Christ should be deprived not only of the kingdom of God, into which they themselves admit that none but such as are regenerated through baptism can enter, but also of eternal life and salvation — when they ask how it can be just that one man should be freed from original sin and another not, although the condition of both of them is the same, might answer their own question, in accordance with their own opinion of how it can be so frequently just and right that one should have baptism administered to him whereby to enter into the kingdom of God, and another not be so favoured, although the case of both is alike. For if the question disturbs him, why, of the two persons, who are both equally sinners by nature, the one is loosed from that bond, on whom baptism is conferred, and the other is not released, on whom such grace is not bestowed; why is he not similarly disturbed by the fact that of two persons, innocent by nature, one receives baptism, whereby he is able to enter into the kingdom of God, and the other does not receive it, so that he is incapable of approaching the kingdom of God? Now in both cases one recurs to the apostle's outburst of wonder O the depth of the riches! Again, let me be informed, why out of the body of baptized infants themselves, one is taken away, so that his understanding undergoes no change from a wicked life, Wisdom 4:11 and the other survives, destined to become an impious man? Suppose both were carried off, would not both enter the kingdom of heaven? And yet there is no unrighteousness with God. Romans 9:14 How is it that no one is moved, no one is driven to the expression of wonder amidst such depths, by the circuмstance that some children are vexed by the unclean spirit, while others experience no such pollution, and others again, as Jeremiah, are sanctified even in their mother's womb; Jeremiah 1:5 whereas all men, if there is original sin, are equally guilty; or else equally innocent if there is original sin? Whence this great diversity, except in the fact that God's judgments are unsearchable, and His ways past finding out?

CHURCH FATHERS: On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants, Book I (Augustine) (newadvent.org)

DecemRationis · « **Reply #85 on:** December 31, 2023, 07:04:13 AM »

St. Augustine, A Treatise on rebuke and grace, In One Book, addressed to valentine, and with him to the monks of adrumetum.

a.d. 426 or 427

Chapter 10—All Perseverance is God’s Gift.

Is such an one as is unwilling to be rebuked still able to say, “What have I done,—I who have not received?” when it appears plainly that he has received, and by his own fault has lost that which he has received? “I am able,” says he, “I am altogether able,—when you reprove me for having of my own will relapsed from a good life into a bad one,—still to say, What have I done,—I who have not received? For I have received faith, which worketh by love, but I have not received perseverance therein to the end. Will any one dare to say that this perseverance is not the gift of God, and that so great a possession as this is ours in such wise that if any one have it the apostle could not say to him, ‘For what hast thou which thou hast not received?’( 1 Cor. iv. 7 . ) since he has this in such a manner as that he has not received it?” To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God; and that it exists not save it come from Him of whom it is written, “Every best gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights.”( Jas. i. 17 . ) But the rebuke of him who has not persevered must not on that account be neglected, “lest God perchance give unto him repentance, and he recover from the snares of the devil;”( 2 Tim. ii. 25 . ) since to the usefulness of rebuke the apostle has subjoined this decision, saying, as I have above mentioned, “Rebuking with moderation those that think differently, lest at any time God give them repentance.”( 2 Tim. ii. 25 . ) For if we should say that such a perseverance, so laudable and so blessed, is man’s in such wise as that he has it not from God, we first of all make void that which the Lord says to Peter: “I have prayed for thee that thy faith fail not.”( Luke xxii. 32 . ) For what did He ask for him, but perseverance to the end? And assuredly, if a man could have this from man, it should not have been asked from God. Then when the apostle says, “Now we pray to God that ye do no evil,”( 2 Cor. xiii. 7 . ) beyond a doubt he prays to God on their behalf for perseverance. For certainly he does not “do no evil” who forsakes good, and, not persevering in good, turns to the evil, from which he ought to turn aside.[ 527 ] In that place, moreover, where he says, “I thank my God in every remembrance of you, always in every prayer of mine for you all making quest with joy for your fellowship[ 528 ] in the gospel from the first day until now, being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ,”( Phil. i. 3 , et seq . )—what else does he promise to them from the mercy of God than perseverance in good to the end? And again where he says, “Epaphras saluteth you, who is one of you, a servant of Christ Jesus, always striving for you in prayer, that you may stand perfect and fulfilled in all the will of God,”( Col. iv. 12 . )—what is “that you may stand” but “that you may persevere”? Whence it was said of the devil, “He stood not in the truth;”( John viii. 24 . ) because he was there, but he did not continue. For assuredly those were already standing in the faith. And when we pray that he who stands may stand, we do not pray for anything else than that he may persevere. Jude the apostle, again, when he says, “Now unto Him that is able to keep you without offence, and to establish you before the presence of His glory, immaculate in joy,”( Jude 24 . ) does he not most manifestly show that perseverance in good unto the end is God’s gift? For what but a good perseverance does He give who preserves without offence that He may place before the presence of His glory immaculate in joy? What is it, moreover, that we read in the Acts of the Apostles: “And when the Gentiles heard, they rejoiced and received the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed”? ( Acts xiii. 48 . ) Who could be ordained to eternal life save by the gift of perseverance? And when we read, “He that shall persevere unto the end shall be saved;”( Matt. x. 22 . ) with what salvation but eternal? And when, in the Lord’s Prayer, we say to God the Father, “Hallowed be Thy name,”( Matt. vi. 9 . ) what do we ask but that His name may be hallowed in us? And as this is already accomplished by means of the laver of regeneration, why is it daily asked by believers, except that we may persevere in that which is already done in us? For the blessed Cyprian also understands this in this manner, inasmuch as, in his exposition of the same prayer, he says: “We say, ‘Hallowed be Thy name,’ not that we wish for God that He may be hallowed by our prayers, but that we ask of God that His name may be hallowed in us. But by whom is God hallowed; since He Himself hallows? Well, because He said, ‘Be ye holy, since I also am holy;’[ 529 ] we ask and entreat that we who have been hallowed in baptism may persevere in that which we have begun to be.”[ 530 ] Behold the most glorious martyr is of this opinion, that what in these words Christ’s faithful people are daily asking is, that they may persevere in that which they have begun to be. And no one need doubt, but that whosoever prays from the Lord that he may persevere in good, confesses thereby that such perseverance is His gift.

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 10117-10119). Kindle Edition.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #86 on:** January 02, 2024, 06:42:00 AM »

Quote

St. Augustine, A Treatise on rebuke and grace, In One Book, addressed to valentine, and with him to the monks of adrumetum.

a.d. 426 or 427

Chapter 14 — None of the Elect and Predestinated Can Perish

. . . For whoever are elected are without doubt also called; but not whosoever are called are as a consequence elected. Those, then, are elected, as has often been said, who are called according to the purpose, who also are predestinated and foreknown. If any one of these perishes, God is mistaken; but none of them perishes, because God is not mistaken. If any one of these perish, God is overcome by human sin; but none of them perishes, because God is overcome by nothing. Moreover, they are elected to reign with Christ, not as Judas was elected, to a work for which he was fitted. Because he was chosen by Him who well knew how to make use even of wicked men, so that even by his damnable deed that venerable work, for the sake of which He Himself had come, might be accomplished. When, therefore, we hear, “Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?”( John vi. 70 . ) we ought to understand that the rest were elected by mercy, but he by judgment; those to obtain His kingdom, he to shed His blood!

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 10126). Kindle Edition.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #87 on:** March 14, 2025, 07:56:23 AM »

I'm posting this here because relevant to the topic (extremely) and because I didn't want to muddy up the waters on another thread where a convert is bringing up whether God grants sufficient grace to everyone.

First, is anyone aware of a Magisterial text that says God gives "sufficient grace" to all men? I am aware of the Magisterium saying God wills all men to be saved, but that's a different affirmation.

That it is a different affirmation is apparent from the discussion of St. Alphonsus in The Great Means of Salvation and Perfection. And it is particularly relevant to this thread because the issue becomes keen with relation to infants who die without baptism (the thread title). I don't think I ever directly addressed that issue in this thread (despite the title), but just laid groundwork by citing texts on predestination by St. Augustine, St. Thomas and commentary in the Haydock and Rheims Bible annotations.

I cited this text of St. Alphonsus before, but here it is again:

Quote

Here it only remains for us to answer the objection which is drawn from children being lost when they die before
Baptism, and before they come to the use of reason. If God wills all to be saved, it is objected, how is it that
these children perish without any fault of their own, since God gives them no assistance to attain eternal
salvation? There are two answers to this objection, the latter more correct than the former, I will state them
briefly.

First, it is answered that God, by antecedent will, wishes all to be saved, and therefore has granted universal
means for the salvation of all; but these means at times fail of their effect, either by reason of the unwillingness
of some persons to avail themselves of them, or because others are unable to make use of them, on account of
secondary causes [such as the death of children], whose course God is not bound to change, after having
disposed the whole according to the just judgment of His general Providence; all this is collected from what
Saint Thomas says: Jesus Christ offered His merits for all men, and instituted Baptism for all; but the application
of this means of salvation, so far as relates to children who die before the use of reason, is not prevented by the
direct will of God, but by a merely permissive will; because as He is the general provider of all things, He is not
bound to disturb the general order, to provide for the particular order.

The second answer is, that to perish is not the same as not to be blessed: since eternal happiness is a gift entirely
gratuitous; and therefore the want of it is not a punishment. The opinion, therefore, of Saint Thomas-----is very
just, that children who die in infancy have neither the pain of sense nor the pain of loss; not the pain of sense, he
says, "because pain of sense corresponds to conversion to creatures; and in Original Sin there is not conversion
to creatures" [as the fault is not our own], "and therefore pain of sense is not due to Original Sin"; because

Original Sin does not imply an act. [De Mal. q. 5, a. 2] Objectors oppose to this the teaching of Saint Augustine,
who in some places shows that his opinion was that children are condemned even to the pain of sense. But in
another place he declares that he was very much confused about this point. These are his words: When I come to
the punishment of infants, I find myself [believe me] in great straits; nor can I at all find anything to say"
Epistle 166. And in another place he writes, that it may be said that such children receive neither reward nor
punishment: "Nor need we fear that it is impossible there should be a middle sentence between reward and
punishment; since their life was midway between sin and good works" [De Lib. Ar. 1, 3, c. 23] This was directly
affirmed by Saint Gregory nαzιanzen: "Children will be sentenced by the just judge neither to the glory of
Heaven nor to punishment". Saint Gregory of Nyssa was of the same opinion: "The premature death of children
shows that they who have thus ceased to live will not be in pain and unhappiness".

And as far as relates to the pain of loss, although these children are excluded from glory, nevertheless Saint
Thomas, [In 2 Sent. d. 33, q. 2, a. 2] who had reflected most deeply on this point, teaches that no one feels pain
for the want of that good of which he is not capable; so that as no man grieves that he cannot fly, or no private
person that he is not emperor, so these children feel no pain at being deprived of the glory of which they were
never capable; since they could never pretend to it either by the principles of nature, or by their own merits.
Saint Thomas adds, in another place, [De Mal. q. 5, a. 3] a further reason, which is, that the supernatural
knowledge of glory comes only by means of actual faith, which transcends all natural knowledge; so that
children can never feel pain for the privation of that glory, of which they never had a supernatural knowledge.
He further says, in the former passage, that such children will not only not grieve for the loss of eternal
happiness, but will, moreover, have pleasure in their natural gifts; and will even in some way enjoy God, so far
as is implied in natural knowledge, and in natural love: "Rather will they rejoice in this, that they will participate
much in the Divine goodness, and in natural perfections". And he immediately adds, that although they will be
separated from God, as regards the union of glory, nevertheless "they will be united with Him by participation of
natural gifts; and so will even be able to rejoice in Him with a natural knowledge and love". [In 2 Sent. d. 33, q.
2, a. 2]

saint-alphonsus-liguori-prayer-the-great-means-of-salvation-and-of-perfection.pdf (Page 36)

The saint does not mention any Magisterial texts regarding "sufficient grace." If the Magisterium opined that "sufficient grace" for salvation is given to all men, as in every single one, to attain salvation by the exercise of their wills, it should be cited here, but it is not.

Now we get to the issue of whether, indeed, "all men," are individually given "sufficient grace" for salvation, so that they can exercise their wills and do something to achieve it.

Can these unbaptized infants? How? I don't see how one can claim, in light of these infants being of part of mankind, hence, men, that all men are individually given sufficient grace for salvation by exercising their free wills. But that is what is implied when the claim is made.

I think St. Alphonsus's answer is a good one, but you will note he doesn't say such infants do get - individually, so that they can achieve it by their wills - "sufficient grace" for salvation.

Viva Cristo Rey · « **Reply #88 on:** March 14, 2025, 01:25:11 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 01:19:03 PM

1. God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

a. St Paul tells us that "God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2)
b. St Paul tells us that "God will not permit you to be tempted beyond your strength."
c. Conclusion - All men, if they respond to grace, can avoid sin, which will merit them sufficient graces to know the Truth (i.e. Church), then persevere to salvation.
d. This is infallible.

2. Salvation is a mystery. As Fr Wathen pointed out, no one can fully understand how God works/deals with others in their life, since we don't even understand the ways in which God works in our own life.

3. Since salvation is a mystery, so is the idea of predestination. I don't pretend to understand St Thomas' ideas as they are beyond me.

The errors of V2/JP2 on salvation is not, in my opinion, that "salvation is offered by God to all". The error lies in the prideful idea that it is "concretely available", or that God's ways can be understood by man, or that God's work in our soul, through our conscience, His Divine Providence, and such "spiritual coincidences" can be known, materially (i.e. that grace can be measured).

Thus, this leads to the V2 heresy that those "who do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel or enter the Church" weren't "given a chance" by God. Horrible blasphemy this is! Because, as St Thomas (and many others tell us), God does not cast pearls before swine, and many do not get graces because of sins. If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself. You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th a drug dealer for life.

I think a sinner should hear the gospel do they can repent. If not, shake the dirt and move on.

DecemRationis · « **Reply #89 on:** March 17, 2025, 01:04:11 PM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis on September 07, 2023, 07:13:10 PM

Scripture's infallible teaching that God gives all men sufficient grace does not lead to V2 errors. I already pointed out that JP2 garbled this truth and corrupted it for ecuмenical purposes.

The point you miss is the Eternal goodness of God's Providence, who sees all things - past, present and future - at the same time. So, for an infant who dies, God forsaw the graces this infant WOULD RECEIVE IN THE FUTURE, and reject them, so He took their life early, so to prevent damnation.

The above is an example of Gods mercy, not a denial of Scripture.

Pax,

In posting something in this old thread I realized I never responded to this before - because I already did, probably. But since you may have missed it, I'll post my response to the bolded portion again (with a slight alteration in red), since, as I said, you're just proving my point that God "chooses" men and that his salvation (or mercy in preventing damnation via Limbo) is according to predestination and His gratuitous election ante praevisa merita:

Quote

Of course, according to traditional Catholic dogma, men are born into a state of condemnation even before they commit any mortal sins; that's called, "original sin." And to say God foresees the mortal sins that some infants might commit if they were permitted to grow to adulthood and die in mortal sin, and decides to end the lives of those infants early, is a speculation that just proves my main point: God chooses those infants as opposed to others who he lets age and commit mortal sins and go to hell. Thus, He purely gratuitously favors one sinner who deserves hell over another whom He consigns to it.

I often think that it doesn't matter what someone says to you as you just repeat the same things over and over, despite the sense of what you're saying being repudiated.

Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants (Read 280100 times)

Pax Vobis

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

Kazimierz

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

Motorede

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

DecemRationis

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

AnthonyPadua

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

AnthonyPadua

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

Ladislaus

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

DecemRationis

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

trad123

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

DecemRationis

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

DecemRationis

St. Augustine - The Gift of Perseverance in the Faith

DecemRationis

St. Augustine - None of the Elect Can Perish

DecemRationis

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

Viva Cristo Rey

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants

DecemRationis

Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants