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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304893 times)

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Online Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2023, 02:47:01 PM »

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Just as well, if an infant who is baptized would grow up and end their lives in mortal sin
Right.  And God is the only person who can know how a person's life will end up, before they are even born.  So, if He withholds certain graces, it's for their benefit.  But we can't say that He withheld "sufficient" graces.  Everyone (save infants) receives "sufficient" graces, as St Paul tells us.


Strictly speaking, since Limbo is not a doctrine, we don't even know if unbaptized infants go to Limbo.  Maybe they are given a choice, before death, (or even after death) to choose Christ or not?  We don't know.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2023, 03:58:01 PM »
Strictly speaking, since Limbo is not a doctrine, we don't even know if unbaptized infants go to Limbo.  Maybe they are given a choice, before death, (or even after death) to choose Christ or not?  We don't know.

Right, there's a lot we don't know.  In fact, a lot of people hostile to Feeneyism don't stop to think that God can easily get the Sacraments to His elect.  If there's a dying infidel, God can not only interiorly enlighten him about the faith but can even send an angel to baptize him as he lay dying.  It only takes a drop of water.  God can suspend time.  He can do anything.  There's absolutely no need whatsoever to question the necessity of the Sacraments for salvation.  If there had been some Native American in the 500s who had the proper disposition, God could get the Sacraments to him.  There were the stories about Mary of Agreda bilocating to the new world.  All this BoD stuff is predicated on this notion that God could be prevented by "necessity" from carrying out His providence.


Offline Ladislaus

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2023, 04:06:21 PM »
St. Augustine:
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If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge?


Offline trad123

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2023, 04:09:11 PM »
St. Augustine:



Vortex of Confusion quote from St. Augusitne


https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/vortex-of-confusion-quote-from-st-augusitne/msg803700/#msg803700


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I'm no so sure the vortex of confusion quote by St. Augustine is something written against baptism of blood or desire, but against proposing that "casualties that which [God] has predestinated [are] not permitted to come to pass", using the sacrament of baptism and infants as an example.



Examples are in the thread I linked, above.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2023, 04:46:22 PM »
Of course, according to traditional Catholic dogma, men are born into a state of condemnation even before they commit any mortal sins; that's called, "original sin." And to say God foresees the mortal sins that some infants might commit if they were permitted to grow to adulthood, and decides to end the lives of those infants early, is a speculation that just proves my main point: God chooses those infants as opposed to others who he lets age and commit mortal sins and go to hell. Thus, He purely gratuitously favors one sinner who deserves hell over another whom He consigns to it.

You can see here men (Pax, for example) fighting against the teachings of Scripture and its necessary conclusions, the same men who rail against the Novus Ordo and the Conciliarists who do the same thing with Tradition. Ironic.

It is a rather poignant demonstration of my point.

Read the citations of St. Augustine, St. Thomas, the Douay Rheims and Haydock annotations that I posted earlier in this thread, and ask yourself: why are these Trad Catholics like Pax "kicking against the pricks" and pulling against the teachings and their import regarding how God saves - gratuitously, and without man being determinative; man and his will are involved, but they are not determinative -  and the extent of man's role in salvation. 

Pax can claim these infants are an "exception," but, since they are men, that exception disproves the claim that "all men" individually receive sufficient grace for salvation (all men do only in the sense expressed by St. Alphonsus - God's provision of the means (baptism) which can avail all and any men anywhere as the means of salvation). Mind you, it is not simply posited by influential theologians such as Francisco Marin-Sola (pre-V2) that men would not be damned without personal sin, but that all men would be saved if they didn't posit an obstacle - their sin or opposition - to God's will that they be saved. Clearly, the infants do not posit such an obstacle, and yet the Traditional Catholic view is that they are not saved.  One simply cannot square the view of theologians like Marin-Sola with the thought and teaching of men like St. Augustine, St. Thomas - Traditional, classical Catholic thought - on this issue.

It is interesting to see Trads back away from the doctrine of Limbo to preserve their human sense of fairness/justice which they see as requiring that all men individually and directly receive sufficient grace for salvation. I see that as an indication of the problem that went to its extremes in the Novus Ordo religion.