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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304652 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #65 on: September 07, 2023, 02:27:15 PM »

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If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself.  You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th marriage or your a drug dealer for life.
It's a hypothetical situation.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #66 on: September 07, 2023, 02:36:22 PM »
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OK, but how does this apply to infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism?  That's what we're considering here.
Infants aren't at the age of reason, so now matter how much grace God gives (except for the grace of baptism), they can't profit from it (assuming they die before reaching reason).  They are the exception to the rule.


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God WILLS all men to be saved, but He sometimes withholds His grace, out of mercy, for those whom He knows will reject it and therefore merit a greater punishment.

I want to give a homeless man $1,000 out of compassion.  But I know that he's addicted to drugs, and it's highly likely (God knows with certainty of course) that he's going to end up dead from an overdose if I give him the $1,000.  So while I will to show him the mercy of giving him the money, it's mercy also that inspires me to withhold it.
This is true, for the present situation of this hypothetical homeless man.  But...before he was addicted to drugs, he was given all kinds of graces to resist, which he did not.  Had he resisted, and had he followed the natural law, he may have found Catholicism and converted.  But he didn't.


Just as you wouldn't give this man $1,000 for fear he'd abuse the gift, so God would not give him the grace of the gospel/Church, for the man would reject it.


Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #67 on: September 07, 2023, 02:40:26 PM »

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The whole thing above falls apart with 1a, which assumes a false sense - unnecessarily, since there are other credible senses of the verse, as indicated by St. Thomas's quotes above, that don't conflict with the reality at issue, i.e, infants who die in infancy without baptism. 

I doubt you even read my last post. St. Alphonsus offers the only rational interpretation of the phrase in the context of infants who die without baptism in infancy. You certainly haven't offered a rational alternative. 

No one disputes that is what Scripture says, but it can't mean what you think it means. St. Thomas, St. Augustine, St. Alphonsus offer reasonable readings that don't conflict with the facts (again, those infants at issue). 
Infants are the exception to the rule.  I was responding to your commentary on JP2, which was obviously NOT dealing with infants, but those of the age of reason.  God DOES will all men to be saved; infants don't have reason, so they wouldn't apply in this case.

Offline trad123

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2023, 02:40:48 PM »
Infants aren't at the age of reason, so now matter how much grace God gives (except for the grace of baptism), they can't profit from it.


He said the sacrament of baptism, specifically.

In other words, if God so willed he could bring baptism to ever single infant, but does not.

Offline trad123

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2023, 02:42:37 PM »
Just as well, if an infant who is baptized would grow up as an adult and end their life in mortal sin, it's entirely within such power to cut their lives immediately after baptism, when they're still infants, to ensure the salvation of such persons.