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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 310936 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2023, 11:07:54 AM »
Yes, Rahner rightly stated that THE biggest shift at Vatican II was related to the salvation issue, the increased "hope of salvation" for all, including those outside the Church.  Every error in Vatican II ultimately traces back to this.  Since there's no getting around the fact that EENS has been solidly defined 3 times and repeated over and over again, "No Salvation Outside the Church" requires that they redefine "Church" and the criteria for belonging to said "Church".  Religious Liberty is also related because of the subjectivization of the criteria for salvation and for pleasing God.  If men please God and save their souls by following their (even erroneous) consciences, then they have a right to please God and save their souls, and therefore follow their (even erroneous) consciences.

Rahner marvelled at the fact that the dramatic shift in EENS went entirely unnoticed by the conservative faction at the Council, that while they called out many other things, they missed the fundamental core shift.

But that's because the subjectivized shift in the understanding of EENS had been well under way for centuries.  You start with "Rewarder God" theory, and then turn "BoD" into something that can be attained by any "nice guy" ex opere operantis on account of his "niceness", or, as Bishop Williamson mocked it, "nitheness" (with a lisp), and the entirety of Catholicism has been gutted.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2023, 01:19:03 PM »

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This evil and dangerous doctrine of "the final salvation of all mankind,".... and that progression has been a main focus of this thread. I would trace its development as a perversion of God's desire to save "all men" into the idea that God gives all men sufficient grace for salvation. A more traditional understanding of this phrase in various senses is expressed by St. Thomas in the Summa, First Part, Question 19, Article 6, Objection 1:
1.  God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

a.  St Paul tells us that "God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2)
b.  St Paul tells us that "God will not permit you to be tempted beyond your strength."
c.  Conclusion - All men, if they respond to grace, can avoid sin, which will merit them sufficient graces to know the Truth (i.e. Church), then persevere to salvation.
d.  This is infallible.

2.  Salvation is a mystery.  As Fr Wathen pointed out, no one can fully understand how God works/deals with others in their life, since we don't even understand the ways in which God works in our own life.

3.  Since salvation is a mystery, so is the idea of predestination.  I don't pretend to understand St Thomas' ideas as they are beyond me.



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Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All

10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church.
The errors of V2/JP2 on salvation is not, in my opinion, that "salvation is offered by God to all".  The error lies in the prideful idea that it is "concretely available", or that God's ways can be understood by man, or that God's work in our soul, through our conscience, His Divine Providence, and such "spiritual coincidences" can be known, materially (i.e. that grace can be measured).  


Thus, this leads to the V2 heresy that those "who do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel or enter the Church" weren't "given a chance" by God.  Horrible blasphemy this is!  Because, as St Thomas (and many others tell us), God does not cast pearls before swine, and many do not get graces because of sins.  If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself.  You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th marriage or your a drug dealer for life.


Online DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #62 on: September 07, 2023, 01:34:26 PM »
1.  God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

a.  St Paul tells us that "God wills that all men be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2)
b.  St Paul tells us that "God will not permit you to be tempted beyond your strength."
c.  Conclusion - All men, if they respond to grace, can avoid sin, which will merit them sufficient graces to know the Truth (i.e. Church), then persevere to salvation.
d.  This is infallible.

The whole thing above falls apart with 1a, which assumes a false sense - unnecessarily, since there are other credible senses of the verse, as indicated by St. Thomas's quotes above, that don't conflict with the reality at issue, i.e, infants who die in infancy without baptism. 

I doubt you even read my last post. St. Alphonsus offers the only rational interpretation of the phrase in the context of infants who die without baptism in infancy. You certainly haven't offered a rational alternative. 

No one disputes that is what Scripture says, but it can't mean what you think it means. St. Thomas, St. Augustine, St. Alphonsus offer reasonable readings that don't conflict with the facts (again, those infants at issue). 

Tell us what graces infants who die in infancy without baptism receive individually (have infused into them by God) so that they can make a choice regarding their salvation?

You are not comfortable with the obvious conclusions and results that arise from thinking through the issue, so you go with what makes you comfortable and makes sense to you and doesn't offend your fallible and human sense of justice. That is how we got to the Novus Ordo, my friend. 

Offline trad123

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2023, 01:46:18 PM »
If you can't/don't want to follow the natural law, then you've already damned yourself.  You don't need to hear about the gospel or the Church, if you're on your 4th marriage or your a drug dealer for life.


That's a bit much.  They have until their last breath.

Offline Ladislaus

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2023, 02:13:16 PM »
1. God does give all men sufficient grace for salvation; this is infallible from Scripture.

OK, but how does this apply to infants who die without the Sacrament of Baptism?  That's what we're considering here.

God WILLS all men to be saved, but He sometimes withholds His grace, out of mercy, for those whom He knows will reject it and therefore merit a greater punishment.

I want to give a homeless man $1,000 out of compassion.  But I know that he's addicted to drugs, and it's highly likely (God knows with certainty of course) that he's going to end up dead from an overdose if I give him the $1,000.  So while I will to show him the mercy of giving him the money, it's mercy also that inspires me to withhold it.