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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304652 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2021, 08:38:20 AM »

Good topic, Decem!


I think it's about providence, not predestination. Like St. Alphonsus says (Reply #3). I think, his first answer is key, although he deems the latter "more correct".

Assuming, I'm not in the state of grace. Even if God wills that I repent my sins, he may allow that I die right now before even having a chance to do so.

How?

He knows by providence in advance whether I will or I won't repent. I case I won't, there is no reason to wait and give me a chance.

Same thing with unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. God knows in advance that in case they'd live on, they'd later reject Him, anyway.



An aside: This puts me on the same foot with unbaptized children. With respect to the question, I am not privileged, just because I'm baptized. The unbaptized at least is in limbo. If I'm cut off, because God knows in advance that I won't make it to heaven anyway, then I'll go to hell, below limbo. And if I live to be 90 or 110, still the same result.

Hi, Marion. Thanks for your comments.

It is true that God foresees the malice and wicked acts of the damned, though He does not cause them. It is different, however, with regard to the predestined elect: God does not simply save them because He foresees their faith or repentance, etc., but is actually and infallibly the cause of it (the elect will be saved not merely because God foresees them exercising faith and making the right choices, but He ensures that they - as opposed to others He merely permits to remain in their sin and disbelief - will and do).

In his great book, Predestination, Father Garrigou-Lagrange quotes St. Thomas:

Quote
In another of his works, St. Thomas states the case still more clearly: "It cannot be said that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved. In such a case, to be sure, there would be no difference between the one predestined and the one not predestined as regards the order of cause to effect, but only as regards the foreknowledge of the event. Thus foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating, which is contrary to the authority of the Scripture and the sayings of the saints. Hence in addition to the certainty of foreknowledge, there is infallible certainty in this order of predestination as regards the effect. Yet the proximate cause of salvation, namely, the free will, is not necessarily but contingently directed to this end." 9


Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (p. 215). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

You are on a different footing than an unbaptized child; we'll get to that.

But let me comment: if one understands predestination - God's willing and providing - being the infallible cause of - the salvation of His chosen elect, and understands the truism that God determines the means and the ends of everything He "simply" wills (St. Thomas, above), then the difficulties or problems of the "fairness" of God saving only those who are joined to the Catholic Church disappears: if He wills infallibly the salvation of all who are saved (and He does), it is obvious that He would also at the same time determine the how or the way He does it (i.e., do it in the manner He selected or wishes) - via faith in Christ, the Church, or baptism, etc.


One could no more object to His choice of how He saves than one can object to His choice of who is saved. The truth of one being established (God's choice of who is to be saved), their are no logical or legitimate grounds to justify an objection to the how, since both come down to His free determination and choice. 

There is simply no distinction between the who and the how of election that legitimatizes an objection to the one rather than the other. 

The election of the saved being a gratuitous act of God's predestination being a truth of Scripture and the Church's teaching, there is no ground for valid objection to God's conjoined free and gratuitous determination of the how or manner He does it. 






Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2021, 06:47:36 PM »
The election of the saved being a gratuitous act of God's predestination being a truth of Scripture and the Church's teaching, there is no ground for valid objection to God's conjoined free and gratuitous determination of the how or manner He does it.

Yes, indeed. And that's St. Alphonsus' second answer (quoted in your Reply #3), which he deems more correct than his first one. I think, it should answer every and all questions of those who don't understand how Our Lord can "refuse" the beatific vision to unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. As a matter of fact, Our Lord doesn't refuse the beatific vision, in the same way the holiest of the Saints doesn't earn it.

Typically, this doesn't convince contemporaries, though, who think in terms of "human rights" and who don't think of fallen man in terms of "enemy of God". An unbaptized man is an enemy of God, ever since original sin (see Council of Trent, cuм hoc tempore, on justification). Many people imagine a father, who would be considered unjust, if he'd elect his first three sons to inherit all property, and let the rest go disinherited. They factor out the question of original sin, they factor out that the topic is about criminal children, who lost their rights as children, in the first place.

There was a comment on CI, about abortion. The commentator thought that (beside crying to heaven) it's a particularly evil crime, because the aborted child "will be denied the Beatific Vision for eternity". As if a man could cross the plans of God, who ensures that all who are called and chosen will make it to heaven.


But let me comment: if one understands predestination - God's willing and providing - being the infallible cause of - the salvation of His chosen elect, and understands the truism that God determines the means and the ends of everything He "simply" wills (St. Thomas, above), then the difficulties or problems of the "fairness" of God saving only those who are joined to the Catholic Church disappears: if He wills infallibly the salvation of all who are saved (and He does), it is obvious that He would also at the same time determine the how or the way He does it (i.e., do it in the manner He selected or wishes) - via faith in Christ, the Church, or baptism, etc.

One could no more object to His choice of how He saves than one can object to His choice of who is saved. The truth of one being established (God's choice of who is to be saved), their are no logical or legitimate grounds to justify an objection to the how, since both come down to His free determination and choice.

There is simply no distinction between the who and the how of election that legitimatizes an objection to the one rather than the other.

I agree. But I don't have much hope that many people will be convinced by learning that not having been baptized before death implies neither having been chosen nor been elect.


Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2021, 06:55:42 PM »
Decem, you said


You are on a different footing than an unbaptized child; we'll get to that.

You didn't give any further explanation. At least not explicitly.


It is true that God foresees the malice and wicked acts of the damned, though He does not cause them. It is different, however, with regard to the predestined elect: God does not simply save them because He foresees their faith or repentance, etc., but is actually and infallibly the cause of it (the elect will be saved not merely because God foresees them exercising faith and making the right choices, but He ensures that they - as opposed to others He merely permits to remain in their sin and disbelief - will and do).

I agree. But on the other hand, the death of unbaptized infants does not concern the elect and their predestination.


In his great book, Predestination, Father Garrigou-Lagrange quotes St. Thomas: [...]

Thomas says "foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating" (which can't be the case) if one would say "that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved."

Now, I argued not about the "predestined to salvation", but about "anyone else". I talked about "unbaptized children who die before the age of reason", who are not "predestined to salvation", but rather classified in the class "anyone else".

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2021, 05:50:38 AM »

Decem, you said


You didn't give any further explanation. At least not explicitly.


I agree. But on the other hand, the death of unbaptized infants does not concern the elect and their predestination.


Thomas says "foreknowledge would be the cause of predestination, and predestination would not be because of the choice of the one predestinating" (which can't be the case) if one would say "that certainty of foreknowledge is the only thing superadded to providence by predestination; this is tantamount to saying that God ordains the one predestined to salvation as He does anyone else, but that in the case of the one predestined He knows that he will not fail to be saved."

Now, I argued not about the "predestined to salvation", but about "anyone else". I talked about "unbaptized children who die before the age of reason", who are not "predestined to salvation", but rather classified in the class "anyone else".

Marion,

Oh, now I see better. Thank you. You are merely saying that God doesn't extend efficacious and saving grace to some because he foresaw that they wouldn't (or would not) have faith and repent. 


Quote
You didn't give any further explanation. At least not explicitly.

I was talking about you being on different footing from unbaptized children, and said, "we'll get to that." I didn't mean that post. LOL I meant soon enough, in the future beyond that post. 

But to touch on it now: you are different - all adults - than an unbaptized child in that you get the sufficient grace to exercise faith or repent; they don't. If you say, "well, God foresaw that the unbaptized infant who dies in infancy would reject the grace," that is different than saying they actually get it. You'd have a whole class being denied heaven not because of something they actually did but something they would do if they had the chance, which is not given them. Anything is possible with God, and within his prerogative and power, and if that is the reason why their lives end in infancy, perhaps. So while I might think it unfair in that they never real get the chance - we have to "take God's word for it," since it doesn't really happen - ok, hey, if that's how He does it, who am I to argue? 

But as a general matter, the truth of all eternal blessing or good being gratuitous on God's part still holds. If the unbaptized infant would not exercise faith and repent if he lived, he would be no different from those who go on to adulthood and fail to believe, repent, etc.  God - without any causal merit in the infant, or anything in the infant to distinguish him from the adult (he'd do the same thing) - sends that "faithless, unrepentant" infant to Limbo, while the adult suffers eternal torment.

That unbaptized infant is not on the same footing as the faithless, unrepentant adult: they deserve the same, but don't get it. 

I sense you agree with this, so maybe your point is God is merciful to the infant who dies in infancy and goes to Limbo. Absolutely agree in that case. And it fits with predestination or election to salvation being a gratuitous gift of God, which is the point of the thread - the implications of that for the necessity of the Church, baptism, etc. 

Again, the choice of who is saved being purely gratuitous at God' discretion, so is the how. 







Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2021, 05:53:57 AM »
Yes, indeed. And that's St. Alphonsus' second answer (quoted in your Reply #3), which he deems more correct than his first one. I think, it should answer every and all questions of those who don't understand how Our Lord can "refuse" the beatific vision to unbaptized children who die before the age of reason. As a matter of fact, Our Lord doesn't refuse the beatific vision, in the same way the holiest of the Saints doesn't earn it.

Typically, this doesn't convince contemporaries, though, who think in terms of "human rights" and who don't think of fallen man in terms of "enemy of God". An unbaptized man is an enemy of God, ever since original sin (see Council of Trent, cuм hoc tempore, on justification). Many people imagine a father, who would be considered unjust, if he'd elect his first three sons to inherit all property, and let the rest go disinherited. They factor out the question of original sin, they factor out that the topic is about criminal children, who lost their rights as children, in the first place.

There was a comment on CI, about abortion. The commentator thought that (beside crying to heaven) it's a particularly evil crime, because the aborted child "will be denied the Beatific Vision for eternity". As if a man could cross the plans of God, who ensures that all who are called and chosen will make it to heaven.


I agree. But I don't have much hope that many people will be convinced by learning that not having been baptized before death implies neither having been chosen nor been elect.

I agree with all of this. I think.

I sense you are perhaps a step or two in front of me. :)


Good post. Seriously, I think we are on the same page.