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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 313203 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Salza on Father William Most's book on Predestination
« Reply #45 on: December 18, 2021, 03:59:35 PM »
Working through Mr. Salza's book on Predestination (see reply #43 above). At this point, I definitely would recommend it, and it's a good supplement to Father Garrigou-Lagrange's book, Predestination. I am tempted to say "highly recommend," but I want to finish it first. Mr Salza does a very good job of explaining some complex issues regarding the topic in direct and easily understandable terms. 

Mr. Salza has a large section where he basically takes apart Father William Most's book, Grace, Predestination, and the Salvific Will of God.  Most, an apologist for the Conciliar Church and the V2 revolution, applies the "deveolpments" in dogma of the Conciliar Church in the area of Predestination, and the results are "in  your face" and blatant in terms of a rejection of the Church's great doctors, St. Augustine and St. Thomas, whose "interpretation" on this subject has been dominant for over 1500 years, while (it is true) not elevated to the level of official adoption by the Church . 

You see, Fr. Most says, St. A and St. Thomas were simply "wrong," poor fools, and "all exegetes today reject this interpretation":


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Fr. Most claims “that the interpretation of Romans 8-9 which St. Thomas inherited from St. Augustine is erroneous,”90 and he emphatically states, “All exegetes today reject this interpretation.”91

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 30). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

I say there is no coincidence between that rejection and the debacle of the Church in our day (indeed, that is a major theme of this thread).

I'll continue with further discussion of Salza's withering of Most in subsequent posts here. 



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Salza on Fr. Most
« Reply #46 on: December 18, 2021, 04:25:01 PM »
Quote
Fr. Most’s rejection of the traditional interpretation of Romans 8-9 is the basis for many of his novel interpretations of St. Thomas and his theories on grace (more on this later). Thirdly, interacting with Fr. Most’s argumentation helps us see more clearly the principles that St. Thomas has left us. These principles help us build our spiritual lives upon a necessary, dogmatic foundation and give the greatest glory to God.


Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 30). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

True, true, very true. The loss of looking at Predestination (well, actually a total failure of even considering the topic) and grace via those Thomistic principles is vital to an underlying understanding of the theological crisis in doctrine of the Conciliar Church.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: Most's adulteration of the doctrine of Predestination: non-Catholics saved
« Reply #47 on: December 19, 2021, 07:09:27 AM »
Mr. Salza does a wonderful job of exposing the false readings by Fr. Most of Romans 8 and 9 and Holy Writ's revelation of the individual predestination of the saints to salvation, which is easily extrapolated to mean, in conjunction with the dogma of the Catholic necessities tied up with salvation - Extra Ecclesia Nulla Salus (Cantate Domino, etc.), and possession of the Catholic faith (the Athanasian and Tridentine Creeds, etc.) - their entrance into Catholic Church (the one and only ark of salvation) prior to death.

The Satanic expansion of salvation to non-Catholics and non-Christians (the infernal campaign inaugurated in Genesis 3 transformed into an attack on God's plan of correction and redemption after the Fall, so that now the false counter Church that Bishop Sheen said would "ape" the true religion proclaims the false gospel that "all men" could possess immortal life and beatific bliss, becoming "as God") necessitated an attack on the Catholic dogma of the predestination of the saints in the Church and while holding the Catholic faith, lest one actually stumble upon the dogma (despite the silence that it is generally wrapped in to hide it) and realize its significance and implication regarding those twin necessities of being Catholic and possessing the Catholic faith, which then make absolute sense as the unique and only means of salvation employed by a God who sovereignly determines who and how men are saved.

I will now proceed to quote from Mr. Salza's withering critique at length:


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We first note that Fr. Most in GPS [the book cited in reply #45 above] does not provide any meaningful exegesis of Romans 8 or 9. He engages in no contextual, grammatical, or lexical analysis of the applicable texts. This is uncharacteristic of Fr. Most’s otherwise thorough scholarship. One would expect more from a renowned scholar, particularly when he is criticizing a position shared by the two greatest minds of the Church. Yet Fr.Most repeatedly claims that St.Augustine, St.Thomas, and other theologians who followed them “were severely hampered by a formerly current misinterpretation” of the passages.92 Fr.Most says, “Today we know that these interpretations of Scripture were all erroneous for they are rejected with unanimity by all good exegetes of all schools.”93 Fr. Most continues by saying, “[E]xegetes of all schools teach a different interpretation of the passage from the Epistle to the Romans.”94 And again, he says, “[T]his interpretation … is now rightly abandoned, as false and lacking in foundation, by all good exegetes of all schools.”95 Fr. Most makes these kinds of sweeping statements throughout his nearly 700-page book.

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (pp. 30-31). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

***numbers (e.g., 92, 93 etc., are to footnotes to the text)


Salza continues:


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After summarily dismissing the views of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, Fr.Most appeals to the “modern scholarship” of Père Lagrange, J. Huby, and A.M.Dubarle. Based on this modern scholarship, Fr. Most says, “As a result, we are able to know clearly that which was hidden in the days of St. Thomas, namely:St. Paul, in Romans 8-9, was not speaking about the infallible predestination of individuals to eternal glory, but about the plans of God for the call of peoples to be members of the Church, in the Old or New Testament, in the full sense, and about the divine plans for those who already are members of the Church in the full sense.”96

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 31). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.


You might say, "oh, there Fr. Most is talking about "the plans of God for the call of peoples to be members of the Church . . . in the full sense," so he does say Romans 8 and 9 concern themselves with the Catholic Church and the Catholic faith. However, note the typical Conciliar Church speech regarding the Catholic Church and faith, where the Church of God and the faith exists (or should we say "subsists") more completely (or should we say, not "partially" as in other faiths). Anyway, if you say that, not so fast . . .

Salza continues:


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Continuing with his novel theory about Romans 9, Fr. Most sees a distinction between what he calls the “internal economy” that regards individual salvation (whether a man will go to heaven or hell) and the “external economy” that regards the external order (whether a man or a nation will belong to the Church). Fr. Most applies this concocted paradigm to any verse he thinks speaks of individual predestination (e.g., Rom. 8-9; 1 Cor. 4:7; Acts 13:48).Fr. Most argues that Romans 9 is about the external economy, not the internal economy. Specifically, Fr. Most advances the Arminian argument that St. Paul is speaking about the predestination of “nations” and not individuals.98

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 32). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.


Note the distinction between the "internal economy" or "internal order" and the "external economy" or "external order." Salza will hit the nail squarely on the head with great force regarding the "upshot" of this Mostian distinction.

To continue with Mr. Salza, he goes on to show how Fr. Most's interpretation is at odds with the Church in the Council of Valence:


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Notwithstanding Fr. Most’s assertions, the Council of Valence authentically teaches that Romans 9 is about individual predestination and election! After citing both Romans 9:21 (about the potter’s power over the clay) and Romans 9:22 (about the vessels of mercy and wrath), the council offers its interpretation of those verses: “[F]aithfully we confess the predestination of the elect to life, and the predestination of the impious to death; in the election, moreover, of those who are to be saved, the mercy of God precedes merited good. In the condemnation, however, of those who are to be lost, the evil which they have deserved precedes the just judgment of God.”97 In short, Fr. Most’s interpretation of Romans 8-9 is expressly rejected by the Council of Valence as well as the constant teaching tradition of the Church espoused by Sts. Augustine and Thomas.

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (pp. 31-32). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

After showing how Fr. Most's reading has been rejected by the Church, Mr. Salza goes on:


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When Fr. Most reveals his two categories, he also includes the Church in the category of the “external economy.” However, St. Paul never mentions the “Church” in Romans 8 or 9. Rather, he is focused on the nation of Israel and the Jєωs’erroneous understanding of how God determines His election. Moreover, we fail to understand Fr. Most’s distinction between individual election (internal economy) and membership in the Church (external economy). God predestines people (internal economy) to eternal salvation precisely by bringing them into the Catholic Church (external economy). In light of this truth, we must also disagree with Fr. Most’s assertion that “God has freely decided upon different fundamental principles for the two economies. These principles are quite incompatible with one another.”100

This assertion is problematic because individual salvation is one effect of predestination, and membership in the Church is another effect of predestination. In fact, one effect (Church membership) may be called the cause of the other effect (salvation). As St. Thomas remarks, “[T]here is no reason why one effect of predestination should not be the reason or cause of another.”101 Even if there were two economies as Fr. Most maintains, this does not mean that God would govern them by different principles, since both economies flow from God’s single decree of predestination. This is why St.Thomas says that all the effects of predestination proceed “from its first moving principle,” which is God.102 If God really governed the “external economy” differently than the “internal economy,” one could argue that God wills to save some people (internal economy) but doesn’t will them to be Catholic (external economy). Nevertheless, we do not assume that Fr. Most’s distinction was motivated by any dissent from the Church’s infallible dogma: Extra ecclesia nulla salus est (outside the Church there is no salvation).103

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (pp. 32-33). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

And there it is, the inglorious upshot of Fr. Most's assault on individual predestination of the saints as set forth by St. Paul and the great doctors of the Church, St. Augustine and St. Thomas: so that "ONE COULD ARGUE THAT GOD WILLS TO SAVE SOME PEOPLE (INTERNAL ECONOMY) BUT DOESN'T WILL THEN TO BE CATHOLIC (EXTERNAL ECONOMY)."

Mr. Salza kindly assumes that Fr. Most is not motivated by dissent to the infallible dogma of EENS, but the result of Fr. Most's doctrine is the same: one doesn't need to be Catholic. And as I pointed out earlier in this thread, if one retains at least some semblance of God's providential control of things (in recognition of the fact that not even a sparrow falls to the ground without God's oversight, Matt. 10:29), how does one not reach the conclusion that God actually wills that some of the elect not be Catholic?

And thus, so now the thinking goes in the Conciliar Church, members of various false Christian Sects, Jєωs, Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists (and on and on), can be saved even "in their false religions" by way of a "development" manifested by the Conciliar Church in its dropping of the "but not by their false religions" expression to which the expression "in their false religions" was previously joined by otherwise true and faithful pastors of the Church like Archbishop Lefebvre, a comforting or palliating tag that likely reflected an attempt to suppress the necessarily concomitant association of a derogation of those joint necessities previously held to by the Church, EENS and the necessity of the Catholic faith, an attempt that utterly failed to stem the rushing waters of their erosion unleashed by V2 and the Conciliar establishment.

I'll end Mr. Salza's insightful review with his passage containing a quote of Father Most that shows forth the effrontery and brash disdain for the traditions and teachings of the fathers, saints and doctors of the Church by the Conciliar Church, which simply often brushes them aside in its surpassing wisdom and more developed insight:


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Fr. Most contends that modern scholarship refutes the massa damnata interpretation of Romans 9. He even implies that the Church has overturned this long-standing interpretation. After claiming that “the obstacles that arose from the erroneous interpretations of the Epistle to the Romans (and a few other passages in St. Paul) have been removed,” he says that “the Church, benefiting from the cuмulative light which the Holy Spirit has now sent through so many centuries, teaches many truths more clearly, especially the salvific will of God.”104

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 33). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

Despite having said I would refrain from highly recommending Mr. Salza book until I finished it, I now "develop" my own testimony, and will highly recommend it prior to its completion by me.


DR

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Augustine on the preaching of predestination
« Reply #48 on: December 24, 2021, 06:54:15 AM »
St. Augustine believed that God's election to grace was a vital truth forcefully enunciated in Scripture and that predestination must be preached:

 
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Chapter 51 [XX.]—Predestination Must Be Preached. 

Wherefore, if both the apostles and the teachers of the Church who succeeded them and imitated them did both these things,—that is, both truly preached the grace of God which is not given according to our merits, and inculcated by wholesome precepts a pious obedience,—what is it which these people of our time think themselves rightly bound by the invincible force of truth to say, “Even if what is said of the predestination of God’s benefits be true, yet it must not be preached to the people”?[ 597 ] It must absolutely be preached, so that he who has ears to hear, may hear. And who has them if he has not received them from Him who says, “I will give them a heart to know me, and ears to hear?”( Baruch ii. 31 . ) Assuredly, he who has not received may reject; while, yet, he who receives may take and drink, may drink and live. For as piety must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God may be rightly worshipped; modesty must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, no illicit act may be perpetrated by his fleshly nature; charity must be preached, that, by him who has ears to hear, God and his neighbours may be loved;—so also must be preached such a predestination of God’s benefits that he who has ears to hear may glory, not in himself, but in the Lord.

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 9509). Kindle Edition.


And from St. Augustine's quote in Reply #37 (commenting on 1 John 2:19):


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Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view; the divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them, because they had not been “called according to the purpose;” they had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in Him; they had not been predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. For if they had been this, they would have been of them, and without doubt they would have continued with them.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2022, 06:31:08 AM »
St. Augustine corrected an error in an early edition of his book, A Treatise On The Soul and its Origin, as follows:




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Chapter 13 [X]—His Seventh Error. (See Above in Book II. 13 [IX.].)
If you wish to be a catholic, do not venture to believe, to say, or to teach that “they whom the Lord has predestinated for baptism can be snatched away from his predestination, or die before that has been accomplished in them which the Almighty has predestined.” There is in such a dogma more power than I can tell assigned to chances in opposition to the power of God, by the occurrence of which casualties that which He has predestinated is not permitted to come to pass. It is hardly necessary to spend time or earnest words in cautioning the man who takes up with this error against the absolute vortex of confusion into which it will absorb him, when I shall sufficiently meet the case if I briefly warn the prudent man who is ready to receive correction against the threatening mischief. Now these are your words: “We say that some such method as this must be had recourse to in the case of infants who, being predestinated for baptism, are yet, by the failing of this life, hurried away before they are born again in Christ.” Is it then really true that any who have been predestinated to baptism are forestalled before they come to it by the failing of this life? And could God predestinate anything which He either in His foreknowledge saw would not come to pass, or in ignorance knew not that it could not come to pass, either to the frustration of His purpose or the discredit of His foreknowledge? You see how many weighty remarks might be made on this subject; but I am restrained by the fact of having treated on it a little while ago, so that I content myself with this brief and passing admonition.

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 8846). Kindle Edition.



This is St. Augustine's considered response to the idea that some of the predestined (infants) could be snatched away by death before they obtain baptism.

It is also a very powerful response to those who would say that baptism of desire supplies for the lack of baptism in catechumen or other "just" among the elect (and some misguided souls also apply this to non-Christians) who do not receive baptism: the truth of predestination and God's law of the necessity of baptism makes a mockery of the thought of the need for such a "supply" as BOD provides.

If only St. Augustine had written a passage in his later life explicitly confronting the idea of BOD as salvific in light of his mature understanding of Predestination, which he so eloquently talked about in his anti-Pelagian writings.

And yet again the importance of this dogma of the faith, Predestination, and the long-reaching consequences of its recession from the front of the Catholic mind, is demonstrated: BOD, the salvation of non-Catholics, etc.