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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304165 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2021, 01:38:47 PM »
Thanks a lot, Decem! Given your comments, especially Reply #30, and Garrigou Lagrange's Predestination (first two and a half pages of Part III, Chapter VIII THE DIVINE MOTION AND THE FREEDOM OF OUR SALUTARY ACTS), I've come to understand the point of the Thomists/Augustinians.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2021, 01:52:09 PM »
Btw, St. Thomas has a whole question with 8 articles in the Summa on Predestination - Part Ia, Question 23. 

Here's Ia, Q.23, a.4:

Quote
Whether the predestined are chosen by God? [*"Eligantur."]

Objection 1: It seems that the predestined are not chosen by God. For Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv, 1) that as the corporeal sun sends his rays upon all without selection, so does God His goodness. But the goodness of God is communicated to some in an especial manner through a participation of grace and glory. Therefore God without any selection communicates His grace and glory; and this belongs to predestination.

Objection 2: Further, election is of things that exist. But predestination from all eternity is also of things which do not exist. Therefore, some are predestined without election.

Objection 3: Further, election implies some discrimination. Now God "wills all men to be saved" (1 Tim. 2:4). Therefore, predestination which ordains men towards eternal salvation, is without election.

On the contrary, It is said (Eph. 1:4): "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world."

I answer that, Predestination presupposes election in the order of reason; and election presupposes love. The reason of this is that predestination, as stated above (A[1]), is a part of providence. Now providence, as also prudence, is the plan existing in the intellect directing the ordering of some things towards an end; as was proved above (Q[22], A[2]). But nothing is directed towards an end unless the will for that end already exists. Whence the predestination of some to eternal salvation presupposes, in the order of reason, that God wills their salvation; and to this belong both election and love:---love, inasmuch as He wills them this particular good of eternal salvation; since to love is to wish well to anyone, as stated above (Q[20], AA[2],3):---election, inasmuch as He wills this good to some in preference to others; since He reprobates some, as stated above (A[3]). Election and love, however, are differently ordered in God, and in ourselves: because in us the will in loving does not cause good, but we are incited to love by the good which already exists; and therefore we choose someone to love, and so election in us precedes love. In God, however, it is the reverse. For His will, by which in loving He wishes good to someone, is the cause of that good possessed by some in preference to others. Thus it is clear that love precedes election in the order of reason, and election precedes predestination. Whence all the predestinate are objects of election and love.

Reply to Objection 1: If the communication of the divine goodness in general be considered, God communicates His goodness without election; inasmuch as there is nothing which does not in some way share in His goodness, as we said above (Q[6], A[4]). But if we consider the communication of this or that particular good, He does not allot it without election; since He gives certain goods to some men, which He does not give to others. Thus in the conferring of grace and glory election is implied.

Reply to Objection 2: When the will of the person choosing is incited to make a choice by the good already pre-existing in the object chosen, the choice must needs be of those things which already exist, as happens in our choice. In God it is otherwise; as was said above (Q[20], A[2]). Thus, as Augustine says (De Verb. Ap. Serm. 11): "Those are chosen by God, who do not exist; yet He does not err in His choice."

Reply to Objection 3: God wills all men to be saved by His antecedent will, which is to will not simply but relatively; and not by His consequent will, which is to will simply.



Saint Thomas Aquinas. Summa Theologica - Enhanced Version . Christian Classics Ethereal Library. Kindle Edition.




St. Thomas talking about God's "antecedent will" to save all men is posted at Reply #1 in this thread. 


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2021, 06:38:56 AM »
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St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II

Chapter 33.—God Gives Both Initiatory and Persevering Grace According to His Own Will.

From all which it is shown with sufficient clearness that the grace of God, which both begins a man’s faith and which enables it to persevere unto the end, is not given according to our merits, but is given according to His own most secret and at the same time most righteous, wise, and beneficent will; since those whom He predestinated, them He also called,( Rom viii. 30 . ) with that calling of which it is said, “The gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”( Rom. xi. 29 . ) To which calling there is no man that can be said by men with any certainty of affirmation to belong, until he has departed from this world; but in this life of man, which is a state of trial upon the earth,( Job vii. 1 . ) he who seems to stand must take heed lest he fall.( 1 Cor. x. 12 . ) Since (as I have already said before)[ 584 ] those who will not persevere are, by the most foreseeing will of God, mingled with those who will persevere, for the reason that we may learn not to mind high things, but to consent to the lowly, and may “work out our own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do for His good pleasure.”( Phil. ii. 12, 13 . ) We therefore will, but God worketh in us to will also. We therefore work, but God worketh in us to work also for His good pleasure. This is profitable for us both to believe and to say,—this is pious, this is true, that our confession be lowly and submissive, and that all should be given to God. Thinking, we believe; thinking, we speak; thinking, we do whatever we do;( 2 Cor. iii. 5 . ) but, in respect of what concerns the way of piety and the true worship of God, we are not sufficient to think anything as of ourselves, but our sufficiency is of God.[ 585 ] For “our heart and our thoughts are not in our own power;” whence the same Ambrose who says this says also: “But who is so blessed as in his heart always to rise upwards? And how can this be done without divine help? Assuredly, by no means. Finally,” he says, “the same Scripture affirms above, ‘Blessed is the man whose help is of Thee; O Lord,( Ps. lxxxiv. 5 [LXX.] ) ascent is in his heart.’”[ 586 ] Assuredly, Ambrose was not only enabled to say this by reading in the holy writings, but as of such a man is to be without doubt believed, he felt it also in his own heart. Therefore, as is said in the sacraments of believers, that we should lift up our hearts to the Lord, is God’s gift; for which gift they to whom this is said are admonished by the priest after this word to give thanks to our Lord God Himself; and they answer that it is “meet and right so to do.” [ 587 ] For, since our heart is not in our own power, but is lifted up by the divine help, so that it ascends and takes cognizance of those things which are above,( Col. iii. 1 . ) where Christ is sitting at the right hand of God, and, not those things that are upon the earth, to whom are thanks to be given for so great a gift as this unless to our Lord God who doeth this,—who in so great kindness has chosen us by delivering us from the abyss of this world, and has predestinated us before the foundation of the world?

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9478-9479). Kindle Edition.


Amen.

At what a beautiful reference t0 Holy Mass embedded in this, written by St. Augustine in the early 5th century.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: St. Thomas "richest of all commentators" on eternal predestination
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2021, 07:49:23 PM »
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Pope Pius XI, Studiorum Ducem

19. The other branch of Theology, which is concerned with the interpretation of dogmas, also found in St. Thomas by far the richest of all commentators; for nobody ever more profoundly penetrated or expounded with greater subtlety all the august mysteries, as, for example, the intimate life of God, the obscurity of eternal predestination, the supernatural government of the world, the faculty granted to rational creatures of attaining their end, the redemption of the human race achieved by Jesus Christ and continued by the Church and the sacraments, both of which the Angelic Doctor describes as “relics, so to speak, of the divine Incarnation.”

https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius11/p11studi.htm

This quote comes via John Salza, who wrote a book on Predestination, called The Mystery of Predestination According to Scripture, The Church and St. Thomas Aquinas. I just became aware of it, and am working myself through it.

Salza indicates:


Quote
I maintain that the Thomist position on predestination best reflects the teaching of Scripture and the Magisterium, and will attempt to demonstrate the same throughout this book.

Salza, John. The Mystery of Predestination: According to Scripture, the Church and St. Thomas Aquinas (p. 5). TAN Books. Kindle Edition.

Very interesting. Though I have just begun the work, it appears I actually may agree with Mr. Salza on something. :)


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2021, 08:04:17 AM »
In his book Iota Unum, Romano Amerio makes an interesting connection between the horrible alteration the Conciliar Church made in the consecration of the wine into the blood of Our Lord at Mass to "poured out for you and all" (instead of the true form, "poured out for you and many") as exhibiting an intent "to get rid of even the slightest hint of the Catholic doctrine of predestination":


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". . . there would have been no reason for introducing this unwonted and unhelpful change, if the translators had not been intending to get rid of even the slightest hint of the Catholic doctrine of predestination, and to insinuate the idea of universal salvation instead. There is thus a Pelagian tinge to this flight from an idea of a distinction between some men and others." Iota Unum, translated by Rev. Fr. John P. Parsons (Sarto House, 1996).


My thesis: the gradual (and now virtual) abandonment of consideration of the subject of Predestination in the Church ripped the Church from its moorings in the sense of man as a creature subject to God's law, control, and sovereign power of determination, so that now we have a Conciliar Church that marches hand in hand with modern man's "progress" in human freedom, a march that began in the revolt of Eden (Gen. 3:5, "you shall be as Gods") and now reaches its apotheosis in the blatant attempt of the Antichrist to become God "so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God ' (2 Th. 2:4), glaringly highlighted as if in neon lights in the bastardization of the Mass in the abominable Novus Ordo, where it was blatantly exhibited in its false vernacular translation for some 40 or so years.