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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304158 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2021, 03:06:51 PM »
On https://libgen.is/ (current alias domains are libgen.rs, libgen.is, libgen.st) I found a collection of works of Garrigou-Lagrange, more than 7000 pages, including "Predestination".

Type "Garrigou-Lagrange" (without quotes).
Select "Search in Fields ... Author(s)"
Search!

The list of results has one entry: "Reverend Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange Collection"

https://libgen.is/search.php?req=Garrigou-Lagrange&lg_topic=libgen&open=0&view=simple&res=25&phrase=1&column=title

Click on one of the Mirrors [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] (at the right side of the entry) for the download-page.
To download, click the GET-Link, on top of the page.

It's an ePub-File of ~7MB.

I used https://www.freeconvert.com/epub-to-pdf, to create a searchable ~36MB PDF.


I think you were just being helpful and providing an online link to Fr. GL, as I call him. 

Don't mind me. :fryingpan:


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2021, 04:19:32 PM »
There are several more distinctions that help clarify the point under consideration.

To begin with, good is the object of the will, and truth is the object of the intellect.  The two operations of the will are to desire and to chose; the to operations of the intellect are to consider and to judge.

The Practical Good: Now, within man there is a sensitive appetite (the desires of the flesh), and an intellectual appetite (the judgements of reason).  Our free will stands midway between the two and has the ability to choose either.  For example, our lower nature desires to eat the cherry pie, while our intellect judges that we should eat the vegetables.  In the end, we chose (second act of the will) one or the other. This is the battle between the lower nature and higher nature - the flesh and the spirit - that St. Paul speaks of in Romans, chapter 8. 

This act of the will pertains directly to choosing a practical good (I should do this, and not do that) not to a speculative good, that is, to a truth (I should believe this, and not believe that).

Antecedent and Consequent Actual Grace: Another distinction is between antecedent actual grace and consequent actual grace.  Antecedent grace enlightens the mind to the truth and moves the will to choose the good.  If the person chooses in accord with the antecedent grace, consequent actual grace is given to help the person carry out the good.

The Speculative Good, or Truth: Now, just as some acts pertain directly to the practical good (I should do this and not that), others pertain directly to the the speculative good, or to the truth (I should believe this and not that).  The intellect and will, and the two forms of actual grace, are both involved in this act as well.  Let's use an example to illustrate the point

A Moslem hears the Gospel peached.  He is given an antecedent actual grace which 1) provides his mind with the light to "see" the truth and 2) moves his will to believe it (belief involves a choice of the will).

Yet, at the same time, the Moslem thinks to himself, if I accept this truth, I will have to convert to Catholicism, and if I do that, I will be disowned by my family and possibly be put to death.  He is left with three possibilities:

1) He can embrace the truth in spite of the consequences, at which point he will be given consequent actual grace to help him carry it out. 

2) He can accept the truth interiorly without revealing it publicly ("if he will not confess Me before men, neither will I confess him before My Father"; "he who loves father or mother more than me, is not worthy of me").

3) Or, since the will remains free, he can refuse to believe the truth.

God never forces the will to choose the good or to believe the truth, but he gives everyone the antecedent actual grace needed to make the right choice.



God would only cause it in the sense of giving the antecedent actual grace that moved the person's will to desire to say the Rosary.  But the will nevertheless remains free to cooperate or not.  If his desire to watch the football game is greater than his desire to say the Rosary, you can bet that he will choose to say the Rosary after the game, or chose to not say it at all.



If God forced the person's will to choose to say the Rosary, and forced him to carry it out, neither the choice nor the act would be free, nor would either be meritorious.  God moves us to do what is good and to choose what is true, but he doesn't force either of necessity.



 

RT,

Are you a Molinist? That would be ok, of course. I'd have issues with it, but my opinion doesn't count where it matters. 

Relevant to the discussion and perhaps our conflicting views (if you're a Molinist), I attach the definition of "extraordinary grace" in
Attwater's Catholic Dictionary. 



Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2021, 06:12:26 AM »
Quote
St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II



Chapter 21 - Instances of the Unsearchable Judgments of God.

Therefore, of two infants, equally bound by original sin, why the one is taken and the other left; and of two wicked men of already mature years, why this one should be so called as to follow Him that calleth, while that one is either not called at all, or is not called in such a manner,—the judgments of God are unsearchable. But of two pious men, why to the one should be given perseverance unto the end, and to the other it should not be given, God’s judgments are even more unsearchable. Yet to believers it ought to be a most certain fact that the former is of the predestinated, the latter is not. “For if they had been of us,” says one of the predestinated, who had drunk this secret from the breast of the Lord, “certainly they would have continued with us.”( 1 John ii. 19 . ) What, I ask, is the meaning of, “They were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us”? Were not both created by God—both born of Adam—both made from the earth, and given from Him who said, “I have created all breath,”( Isa. lvii. 16 [see LXX.] ) souls of one and the same nature? Lastly, had not both been called, and followed Him that called them? and had not both become, from wicked men, justified men, and both been renewed by the laver of regeneration? But if he were to hear this who beyond all doubt knew what he was saying, he might answer and say: These things are true. In respect of all these things, they were of us. Nevertheless, in respect of a certain other distinction, they were not of us, for if they had been of us, they certainly would have continued with us. What then is this distinction? God’s books lie open, let us not turn away our view; the divine Scripture cries aloud, let us give it a hearing. They were not of them, because they had not been “called according to the purpose;” they had not been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world; they had not gained a lot in Him; they had not been predestinated according to His purpose who worketh all things. For if they had been this, they would have been of them, and without doubt they would have continued with them.


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9456-9457). Kindle Edition.

So, why is it that some men do not enter the Catholic Church, outside of which there is no salvation (Cantate Domino etc.) and persevere in it, according to St. Augustine? And why is it that some men do not come to embrace the Catholic faith without which there is no salvation (Athanasian Creed etc.), according to St. Augustine?

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2021, 07:52:12 AM »

But, what about man's freely willed decision to cooperate with grace? What about the voto mentioned by the Council of Trent. God foreknows the will, the voto.

. . . 

God would prefer to predestine all men, since he wills to do so. But he is limited by man, since the predestined have to freely assent to the call (excepting exceptions). God cannot predestine someone who doesn't want to assent (or who later backs down).

I don't understand why St. Thomas doesn't infer that God's foreknowledge of this assent of the predestined is key to solve the "mystery" of predestination.


Marion,

For your consideration, and prayer, if you wish to continue contemplating this subject:


Quote
St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II




Chapter 23.—Why for the People of Tyre and Sidon, Who Would Have Believed, the Miracles Were Not Done Which Were Done in Other Places Which Did Not Believe.




. . . But can we say that even the Tyrians and Sidonians would have refused to believe such mighty works done among them, or would not have believed them if they had been done, when the Lord Himself bears witness to them that they would have repented with great humility if those signs of divine power had been done among them? And yet in the day of judgment they will be punished; although with a less punishment than those cities which would not believe the mighty works done in them. For the Lord goes on to say, “Nevertheless, I say unto you, it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you.”( Matt. xi. 22 . ) Therefore the former shall be punished with greater severity, the latter with less; but yet they shall be punished. Again, if the dead are judged even in respect of deeds which they would have done if they had lived, assuredly since these would have been believers if the gospel had been preached to them with so great miracles, they certainly ought not to be punished; but they will be punished. It is therefore false that the dead are judged in respect also of those things which they would have done if the gospel had reached them when they were alive. And if this is false, there is no ground for saying, concerning infants who perish because they die without baptism, that this happens in their case deservedly, because God foreknew that if they should live and the gospel should be preached to them, they would hear it with unbelief. It remains, therefore, that they are kept bound by original sin alone, and for this alone they go into condemnation; and we see that in others in the same case this is not remitted, except by the gratuitous grace of God in regeneration; and that, by His secret yet righteous judgment—because there is no unrighteousness with God—that some, who even after baptism will perish by evil living, are yet kept in this life until they perish, who would not have perished if bodily death had forestalled their lapse into sin, and so come to their help. Because no dead man is judged by the good or evil things which he would have done if he had not died, otherwise the Tyrians and Sidonians would not have suffered the penalties according to what they did; but rather according to those things that they would have done, if those evangelical mighty works had been done in them, they would have obtained salvation by great repentance, and by the faith of Christ.


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (pp. 9460-9461). Kindle Edition.

Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, or St. Augustine necessarily right. I'm offering it for your consideration. 

And it has also been my position, and my argument in this thread, that the classical and ancient position of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, reflected also in the Haydock Bible annotations posted in this thread, on Predestination presents a seamless garment that flows without rent and explains the seeming "harshness" of the dogmas of No Salvation Outside the Church, no salvation without possession of the Catholic faith or the sacrament of baptism (or at least the explicit desire for it, and the actual receipt of the sacrament as to infants). 


Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2021, 12:44:47 PM »
Mind you, I'm not saying you're wrong, or St. Augustine necessarily right. I'm offering it for your consideration.

Thanks a lot, Decem! Given your comments, especially Reply #30, and Garrigou Lagrange's Predestination (first two and a half pages of Part III, Chapter VIII THE DIVINE MOTION AND THE FREEDOM OF OUR SALUTARY ACTS), I've come to understand the point of the Thomists/Augustinians.

Quote from: Garrigou Lagrange
Finally, the Thomists retort by saying that it is the scientia media which destroys liberty; for it supposes that God previous to any divine decree sees infallibly what a particular man freely would choose if placed in certain circuмstances.

[...]

We saw that St. Thomas had already formulated it as clearly as possible, when he said: “It seems that the will is moved of necessity by God. For every agent that cannot be resisted moves of necessity. But God cannot be resisted, because His power is infinite; wherefore it is written: Who resisteth His will? (Rom. 9: 19.) Therefore God moves the will of necessity.” We know that St. Thomas replied to this by saying: “The divine will extends not only to the doing of something by the thing which He moves, but also to its being done in a way which is fitting to the nature of that thing. And therefore it would be more repugnant to the divine motion, for the will to be moved of necessity, which is not fitting to its nature, than for it to be moved freely, which is becoming to its nature.” From this reply, what remains of the major of this objection: Every agent that cannot be resisted, moves of necessity? St. Thomas distinguishes as follows: If this agent causes the movement, without causing the being to move freely, I deny the major; if it causes the being to move and to move freely, then I concede the major. Thus man under the influence of efficacious grace remains free, although he never resists it; for it causes in him and with him even that he act freely; it actualizes his liberty in the order of good, and if he no longer is in a state of potential or passive indifference, he still has an actual and active indifference, a dominating indifference with regard to the particular good which he chooses. This good is incapable of invincibly attracting him like the vision of God face to face. He is inclined freely toward this good, God actualizing this free movement; and since its free mode still is being, it is included in the adequate object of divine omnipotence. Such is manifestly the doctrine of St. Thomas. The texts just quoted clearly prove this to be the case.