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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 304149 times)

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Offline DecemRationis

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Re: From The Catholic Encyclopedia's Article of Predestination
« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2021, 08:54:46 AM »
Quote
The notion of predestination comprises two essential elements: God's infallible foreknowledge ( prœscientia ), and His immutable decree ( decretum ) of eternal happiness. The theologian who, following in the footsteps of the Pelagians, would limit the Divine activity to the eternal foreknowledge and exclude the Divine will, would at once fall into Deism, which asserts that God, having created all things, leaves man and the universe to their fate and refrains from all active interference. Though the purely natural gifts of God, as descent from pious parents, good education, and the providential guidance of man's external career, may also be called effects of predestination, still, strictly speaking, the term implies only those blessings which lie in the supernatural sphere, as sanctifying grace, all actual graces, and among them in particular those which carry with them final perseverance and a happy death. Since in reality only those reach heaven who die in the state of justification or sanctifying grace , all these and only these are numbered among the predestined, strictly so called. From this it follows that we must reckon among them also all children who die in baptismal grace, as well as those adults who, after a life stained with sin, are converted on their death-beds. The same is true of the numerous predestined who, though outside the pale of the true Church of Christ, yet depart from this life in the state of grace as catechumens, Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans, and pagans. Those fortunate Catholics who at the close of a long life are still clothed in their baptismal innocence, or who after many relapses into mortal sin persevere till the end, are not indeed predestined more firmly, but are more signally favoured than the last-named categories of persons.


Predestination - Encyclopedia Volume - Catholic Encyclopedia - Catholic Online


In some ways I should have made this the original post of this thread, since it reveals some of the dangers of ignoring this topic, or of not considering the ramifications of certain truths of Predestination.

The CE properly says:


Quote
The notion of predestination comprises two essential elements: God's infallible foreknowledge ( prœscientia ), and His immutable decree ( decretum ) of eternal happiness . . .

Though the purely natural
gifts of God, as descent from pious parents, good education, and the providential guidance of man's external career, may also be called effects of predestination, still, strictly speaking, the term implies only those blessings which lie in the supernatural sphere, as sanctifying grace, all actual graces, and among them in particular those which carry with them final perseverance and a happy death.



So Predestination includes God's "immutable decree of  eternal happiness" and His "providential guidance of man's external career" which results in the blessings of the elect, who receive sanctifying grace and the final perseverance of a happy death," or, in other words, the decreed "eternal happiness."

And yet, the CE has "Protestants in good faith, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans and pagans" being guided in their "external career" and "depart[ing] from this life in a state of grace," i.e., receiving the decreed "eternal happiness."

In other words, God wills that some of the elect dies as Prots, schismatics, Jєωs, Mahommedans and pagans" according to the CE. To focus on the "Jєωs, Mahommedans and pagans," that means that God wills to save some men without belief in His Son, even perhaps consciously rejecting Christ's divinity, the necessity of His Passion and Resurrection, etc.  There is no other conclusion, since he guides their external careers and decreed that they receive eternal happiness. In other words, He could have Providentially arranged and decreed otherwise, but not only didn't He will that they be saved as Catholics, He willed that they not be: if my being condition A (non-Catholic, even non-Christian) is willed by God (and it is, even by the CE's standards and definition), then my not being condition B (Catholic, a potential condition God could have likewise willed for me, a position that many of my fellow men are in) is also willed by God.

If God wills that some are saved without belief in Christ and while being outside the Church, how can you possibly and in good faith contend that there is no salvation outside the Church or without faith in Christ?

If you accept Predestination and God's "immutable decree (decretum) of eternal happiness," this "reality" absolutely precludes such a "necessity," since that necessity is belied by the way things really are "out there."

On the other hand, if you believe it is a truth (that is actually applied in the real world) that God wills that there is no salvation outside the Church or without a supernatural faith (that must of course, being a true faith, accord with the truth - He is Triune, He became man, He suffered and rose for our justification - not deny it), and properly understand that God predestines men (determines their "external career" and "decrees" their eternal happiness),  you could not rationally reach the conclusion in the CE of the salvation of those "outside the pale of the Church" or who actually deny a truth of the faith (a denial is a denial, putting culpability aside).

Thinking coherently about Predestination necessarily disabuses one of many errors, and that's the purpose of this thread.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2021, 06:32:15 AM »
St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II

Chapter 16  - Why is Not Grace Given According to Merit? 

          But “why,” says one, “is not the grace of God given according to men’s merits?” I answer, Because God is merciful. “Why, then,” it is asked, “is it not given to all?” And here I reply, Because God is a Judge.( Rom. ix. 20 . ) And thus grace is given by Him freely; and by His righteous judgment it is shown in some what grace confers on those to whom it is given. Let us not then be ungrateful, that according to the good pleasure of His will a merciful God delivers so many to the praise of the glory of His grace from such deserved perdition; as, if He should deliver no one therefrom, He would not be unrighteous. Let him, therefore, who is delivered love His grace. Let him who is not delivered acknowledge his due. If, in remitting a debt, goodness is perceived, in requiring it, justice—unrighteousness is never found to be with God.


Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 9450). Kindle Edition.


Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2021, 07:43:51 AM »
Of course there is unsearchable mystery here, but it is in the choice of God, in the truth of His gratuitous choice of whom He will save.

Those who insist that God's choice is determined in some way by man (man's faith, man's action) place the "mystery" of salvation in the wrong place: the "mystery" is not how the undisputed mystery of God's gratuitous choice in salvation is reconciled with what would be a non-gratuitous, and non-mysterious, determination of a man's eternal fate based upon known criteria (e.g., God chooses the man who believes, the man who acts righteously) - that's reasonable to man, and not mysterious; the mystery is not there. That's irrational and a contradiction: a gratuitous choice that is determined by man is not a gratuitous choice by God.

Some men try to explain the undeniable revelation in Scripture of the gratuity of God's choice by saying His decision to save men by faith etc., as opposed to some other way, was the gratuitous and free choice  of God - the determination of the salvation of which man is not gratutious they say, but foregrounded in the free decision of God as to what is to be the basis of the determination (faith, righteous deeds, etc.) - they say the mystery is there (why faith, and not something else?). Or else they say it is a "mystery" why God decided to save man in the first place, and that the gratuity of God's choice lies there or in some other related choice by God.  Again, the "mystery" of God's gratuitous choice is misplaced and separated from the actual determination of whom God saves; it is pushed further back in the process to preserve in some way an individual man's action as determinative of that individual man's salvation.

The traditional teaching of the Church is other: the gratuity of the God's choice (and the expression of His freedom) is of actual individual men who are saved, and not the criteria of salvation. See the testimony cited and quoted earlier in this thread: St. Thomas, the Haydock Bible commentary, etc. Read St. Augustine. Read Father Garrigou-Lagrange's book, Predestination.



Quote

St. Augustine, A Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints, Book II


Chapter 18.—But Why Should One Be Punished More Than Another?


    “But if,” it is said, “it was necessary that, although all were not condemned, He should still show what was due to all, and so He should commend His grace more freely to the vessels of mercy; why in the same case will He punish me more than another, or deliver him more than me?” I say not this. If you ask wherefore; because I confess that I can find no answer to make. And if you further ask why is this, it is because in this matter, even as His anger is righteous and as His mercy is great, so His judgments are unsearchable.

Augustine, Saint. The Complete Works of St. Augustine: Cross-linked to the Bible and with in-line footnotes (p. 9452). Kindle Edition.


Why was one child who died in infancy born to Christian parents and baptized prior to death, while another born in South America before the Spanish brought Catholicism to the region died without the sacrament?  Why the one child, rather than the other?

There is where the mystery lies.

Of course, the "punishment" of the infant in the latter case is the deprivation of the beatific vision, and not the torments of hell:


Quote
Pope Innocent III (Denzinger 410)


But through the sacrament of baptism the guilt of one made red by the blood of Christ is remitted, and to the kingdom of heaven one also arrives, whose gate the blood of Christ has mercifully opened for His faithful. For God forbid that all children of whom daily so great a multitude die, would perish, but that also for these the merciful God who wishes no one to perish has procured some remedy unto salvation. . . . As to what opponents say, (namely), that faith or love or other virtues are not infused in children, inasmuch as they do not consent, is absolutely not granted by most. . . . some asserting that by the power of baptism guilt indeed is remitted to little ones but grace is not conferred; and some indeed saying both that sin is forgiven and that virtues are infused in them as they hold virtues as a possession not as a function, until they arrive at adult age. . . . We say that a distinction must be made, that sin is twofold: namely, original and actual: original, which is contracted without consent; and actual which is committed with consent. Original, therefore, which is committed without consent, is remitted without consent through the power of the sacrament; but actual, which is contracted with consent, is not mitigated in the slightest without consent. . . . The punishment of original sin is deprivation of the vision of God, but the punishment of actual sin is the torments of everlasting hell. . . .


https://sensusfidelium.us/the-sources-of-catholic-dogma-the-denzinger/innocent-iii-1198-1216-the-effect-of-baptism-and-the-character/

God has determined to save men under the New Covenant by the Catholic faith, and there is no salvation outside the Church; these are truths of the faith that cannot be denied. Why one man hears the Gospel and comes to that faith in the first place, and then why another perseveres in it and dies in a state of grace, is freely and gratuitously determined by God.

And the free choice of God of how a man is saved - by being baptized and persevering in the Catholic faith - is no more "unjust" than His free determination of which man to save.

If the latter truth as to who is saved (and the manner - God's gratuitous choice) doesn't offend "justice," and it doesn't - see St. Thomas, St. Augustine, Haydock etc. (cited in this thread) - neither does God's free and gratuitous choice of the how (via the Catholic faith).







Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2021, 01:38:11 PM »
Those who insist that God's choice is determined in some way by man (man's faith, man's action) place the "mystery" of salvation in the wrong place:

Hope, faith, and love are (first) infused when a man receives the sacrament of baptism. Man is not able to have the (supernatural) faith and do God pleasing deeds, without sanctifying grace. So I agree, God doesn't predestine based on these. But, what about man's freely willed decision to cooperate with grace? What about the voto mentioned by the Council of Trent. God foreknows the will, the voto.

There is no merit involved, since all merit comes from the blood of Christ, and is communicated (Trent) to the candidates.

I can't understand, why predestination should be that mysterious. God has revealed who will be saved:

We know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good (Rom 8:28)

For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son (Rom 8:29)

he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13)


St. Thomas Aquinas avoids to consider the role of the of the free will, although he mentions it without further consideration:

Quote from: St. Thomas Aquinas, Commentary on Romans
This call is necessary, because our heart would not turn itself to God, unless God himself drew us to him: no one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him (John 6:44); turn us to thyself, O Lord, that we may be turned (Lam 5:21). Furthermore, this call is efficacious in the predestined, because they assent to the call: everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me (John 6:45).
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Rom.C8.L6.n707

Thomas mentions the way in which "God's choice is determined in some way by man" (DecemRationis). God would prefer to predestine all men, since he wills to do so. But he is limited by man, since the predestined have to freely assent to the call (excepting exceptions). God cannot predestine someone who doesn't want to assent (or who later backs down).

I don't understand why St. Thomas doesn't infer that God's foreknowledge of this assent of the predestined is key to solve the "mystery" of predestination.


Your point ...

And the free choice of God of how a man is saved - by being baptized and persevering in the Catholic faith - is no more "unjust" than His free determination of which man to save.

... is not concerned. Since even a less mysterious predestination doesn't invalidate it.

Offline DecemRationis

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2021, 07:57:20 AM »

Hope, faith, and love are (first) infused when a man receives the sacrament of baptism. Man is not able to have the (supernatural) faith and do God pleasing deeds, without sanctifying grace. So I agree, God doesn't predestine based on these. But, what about man's freely willed decision to cooperate with grace? What about the voto mentioned by the Council of Trent. God foreknows the will, the voto.

There is no merit involved, since all merit comes from the blood of Christ, and is communicated (Trent) to the candidates.

I can't understand, why predestination should be that mysterious. God has revealed who will be saved:

We know that to them that love God, all things work together unto good (Rom 8:28)

For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son (Rom 8:29)

he who endures to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13)


St. Thomas Aquinas avoids to consider the role of the of the free will, although he mentions it without further consideration:
https://aquinas.cc/la/en/~Rom.C8.L6.n707

Thomas mentions the way in which "God's choice is determined in some way by man" (DecemRationis). God would prefer to predestine all men, since he wills to do so. But he is limited by man, since the predestined have to freely assent to the call (excepting exceptions). God cannot predestine someone who doesn't want to assent (or who later backs down).

I don't understand why St. Thomas doesn't infer that God's foreknowledge of this assent of the predestined is key to solve the "mystery" of predestination.


Your point ...

... is not concerned. Since even a less mysterious predestination doesn't invalidate it.

Marion,

You're opening up the depths, and unleashing the deep things. You're getting to what is called "contingent necessity" and the "dominating indifference" of the will, in which man's freedom lies. 

I think in dealing with the larger question underneath your comments your questions or concerns will be addressed. I'll start with some quotes from St. Thomas's Summa, then add some of my own thoughts later in another post. 

Before that, let me remark on your "foreknowledge" observations, which you brought up in a prior post. God's knowing beforehand doesn't solve the "mystery." Before you had posited that God knows that the infants who die without baptism would have gone on to sin or fail to believe and that God was merciful to them by granting them eternity in Limbo rather than the eternal torments to which they would be consigned had they lived. But as I noted, the mystery is not solved there: why does God let the other sinners go on to live and commit the sin, and consign them to hell? The difference in treatment would still not be in the sinners, but in the gratuitous choice by God. I think there's a possible response to that, but it wouldn't be mine, and it would involve other difficulties, so I'll let you raise it.

In any event, I'm dealing with the traditional teaching of the Church and its "big guns," St. Thomas, St. Augustine, on Predestination and foreknowledge, etc., and the upshot of their thinking of Predestination if one agrees with them, and I do. The failure to "think through" their teachings on this is the main thrust of this thread, and the implications of their thinking on Predestination and its convergence with the truths of the faith such as EENS, the necessity of baptism, etc.  

Of course, your independent thinking on this is welcome and I think provocative and helpful, and might indeed open some insights. 

I think there are many passages of St. Thomas relevant to this issue, but here are two of the main ones to ponder:


Quote
Article 8. Whether the will of God imposes necessity on the things willed?


Objection 1. It seems that the will of God imposes necessity on the things willed. For Augustine says (Enchiridion 103): "No one is saved, except whom God has willed to be saved. He must therefore be asked to will it; for if He wills it, it must necessarily be."

Objection 2. Further, every cause that cannot be hindered, produces its effect necessarily, because, as the Philosopher says (Phys. ii, 84) "Nature always works in the same way, if there is nothing to hinder it." But the will of God cannot be hindered. For the Apostle says (Romans 9:19): "Who resisteth His will?" Therefore the will of God imposes necessity on the things willed.

Objection 3. Further, whatever is necessary by its antecedent cause is necessary absolutely; it is thus necessary that animals should die, being compounded of contrary elements. Now things created by God are related to the divine will as to an antecedent cause, whereby they have necessity. For the conditional statement is true that if God wills a thing, it comes to pass; and every true conditional statement is necessary. It follows therefore that all that God wills is necessary absolutely.

On the contrary, All good things that exist God wills to be. If therefore His will imposes necessity on things willed, it follows that all good happens of necessity; and thus there is an end of free will, counsel, and all other such things.

I answer that, The divine will imposes necessity on some things willed but not on all. The reason of this some have chosen to assign to intermediate causes, holding that what God produces by necessary causes is necessary; and what He produces by contingent causes contingent. This does not seem to be a sufficient explanation, for two reasons.

First, because the effect of a first cause is contingent on account of the secondary cause, from the fact that the effect of the first cause is hindered by deficiency in the second cause, as the sun's power is hindered by a defect in the plant. But no defect of a secondary cause can hinder God's will from producing its effect.

Secondly, because if the distinction between the contingent and the necessary is to be referred only to secondary causes, this must be independent of the divine intention and will; which is inadmissible. It is better therefore to say that this happens on account of the efficacy of the divine will. For when a cause is efficacious to act, the effect follows upon the cause, not only as to the thing done, but also as to its manner of being done or of being. Thus from defect of active power in the seed it may happen that a child is born unlike its father in accidental points, that belong to its manner of being. Since then the divine will is perfectly efficacious, it follows not only that things are done, which God wills to be done, but also that they are done in the way that He wills. Now God wills some things to be done necessarily, some contingently, to the right ordering of things, for the building up of the universe. Therefore to some effects He has attached necessary causes, that cannot fail; but to others defectible and contingent causes, from which arise contingent effects. Hence it is not because the proximate causes are contingent that the effects willed by God happen contingently, but because God prepared contingent causes for them, it being His will that they should happen contingently.

Reply to Objection 1. By the words of Augustine we must understand a necessity in things willed by God that is not absolute, but conditional. For the conditional statement that if God wills a thing it must necessarily be, is necessarily true.

Reply to Objection 2. From the very fact that nothing resists the divine will, it follows that not only those things happen that God wills to happen, but that they happen necessarily or contingently according to His will.

Reply to Objection 3.
 Consequents have necessity from their antecedents according to the mode of the antecedents. Hence things effected by the divine will have that kind of necessity that God wills them to have, either absolute or conditional. Not all things, therefore, are absolute necessities.


https://www.newadvent.org/summa/1019.htm#article8


Quote
Article 4. Whether the will is moved of necessity by the exterior mover which is God?


Objection 1. It would seem that the will is moved of necessity by God. For every agent that cannot be resisted moves of necessity. But God cannot be resisted, because His power is infinite; wherefore it is written (Romans 9:19): "Who resisteth His will?" Therefore God moves the will of necessity.

Objection 2. Further, the will is moved of necessity to whatever it wills naturally, as stated above (Article 2, Reply to Objection 3). But "whatever God does in a thing is natural to it," as Augustine says (Contra Faust. xxvi, 3). Therefore the will wills of necessity everything to which God moves it.

Objection 3. Further, a thing is possible, if nothing impossible follows from its being supposed. But something impossible follows from the supposition that the will does not will that to which God moves it: because in that case God's operation would be ineffectual. Therefore it is not possible for the will not to will that to which God moves it. Therefore it wills it of necessity.

On the contrary, It is written (Sirach 15:14): "God made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his own counsel." Therefore He does not of necessity move man's will.

I answer that, As Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv) "it belongs to Divine providence, not to destroy but to preserve the nature of things." Wherefore it moves all things in accordance with their conditions; so that from necessary causes through the Divine motion, effects follow of necessity; but from contingent causes, effects follow contingently. Since, therefore, the will is an active principle, not determinate to one thing, but having an indifferent relation to many things, God so moves it, that He does not determine it of necessity to one thing, but its movement remains contingent and not necessary, except in those things to which it is moved naturally.

Reply to Objection 1. The Divine will extends not only to the doing of something by the thing which He moves, but also to its being done in a way which is fitting to the nature of that thing. And therefore it would be more repugnant to the Divine motion, for the will to be moved of necessity, which is not fitting to its nature; than for it to be moved freely, which is becoming to its nature.

Reply to Objection 2. That is natural to a thing, which God so works in it that it may be natural to it: for thus is something becoming to a thing, according as God wishes it to be becoming. Now He does not wish that whatever He works in things should be natural to them, for instance, that the dead should rise again. But this He does wish to be natural to each thing—that it be subject to the Divine power.

Reply to Objection 3.
 If God moves the will to anything, it is incompatible with this supposition, that the will be not moved thereto. But it is not impossible simply. Consequently it does not follow that the will is moved by God necessarily.

https://www.newadvent.org/summa/2010.htm