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Author Topic: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants  (Read 340060 times)

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Re: God's salvific will to save "all men" and the death of unbaptized infants
« Reply #135 on: September 27, 2025, 11:21:28 PM »




Of course, there's the burning Jєωιѕн question on salvation...
 of whether if a drowning jew could Baptize himself with salt water?


Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
In his book Iota Unum, Romano Amerio makes an observation that is consistent with my thesis in this thread: that a dilution, or more adequately, an evasion if not outright rejection, of the traditional Catholic doctrine of predestination is underlying much of the problems that express themselves in Modernism's reformulation of doctrine and liturgy.

Amerio observes regarding the change of the consecration of the wine to the blood of Christ in the Mass to "poured out for you and for all" instead of "poured out for you and for many" in the vernacular translations of the new mass:


Quote
"it is obvious that there would have been no reason for introducing this unwonted and unhelpful change, if the translators had not been intending to get rid of even the slightest hint of the Catholic doctrine of predestination, and to insinuate the idea of universal salvation instead. There is thus a Pelagian tinge to this flight from an idea of a distinction between some men and others."

Iota Unum, p. 620 (photo attached)



Offline OABrownson1876

  • Supporter
Ordinarily we mean by the phrase, "God wishes all men to be saved," all men capable of moral acts.  An unbaptized infant is incapable of performing a moral act, because although he has reason, he does not have the use of his reason.  When we say that God gives to all men sufficient grace to save their souls, we are of course referring to those capable of producing moral acts.  

We know that the unbaptized infants do not suffer torments for evil acts that they obviously did not commit.  As to the fate of the unbaptized infants, the Church has said very little.  Why some infants die with baptism and others do not is a mystery.  

Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
Ordinarily we mean by the phrase, "God wishes all men to be saved," all men capable of moral acts. . .  When we say that God gives to all men sufficient grace to save their souls, we are of course referring to those capable of producing moral acts. 


OA,

What theologians would you include within that "we"? I am not aware of any theologians resolving the issue by saying infants are not included in God's antecedent will to save all men. I'm also not sure what you mean by "ordinarily." Are infants included or not?

Certainly neither St. Augustine, St. Thomas, nor St. Alphonsus resolved the issue by saying infants are excluded from the antecedent will of God to save all men referenced in 1 Tim. 2:4. St. Alphonsus, who has the most direct and detailed consideration on the topic that I am aware of, says this (cited earlier in this thread):

Quote

Here it only remains for us to answer the objection which is drawn from children being lost when they die before

Baptism, and before they come to the use of reason. If God wills all to be saved, it is objected, how is it that
these children perish without any fault of their own, since God gives them no assistance to attain eternal
salvation? There are two answers to this objection, the latter more correct than the former, I will state them
briefly.

First, it is answered that God, by antecedent will, wishes all to be saved, and therefore has granted universal
means for the salvation of all; but these means at times fail of their effect, either by reason of the unwillingness
of some persons to avail themselves of them, or because others are unable to make use of them, on account of
secondary causes [such as the death of children], whose course God is not bound to change, after having
disposed the whole according to the just judgment of His general Providence; all this is collected from what
Saint Thomas says: Jesus Christ offered His merits for all men, and instituted Baptism for all; but the application
of this means of salvation, so far as relates to children who die before the use of reason, is not prevented by the
direct will of God, but by a merely permissive will; because as He is the general provider of all things, He is not
bound to disturb the general order, to provide for the particular order.

The second answer is, that to perish is not the same as not to be blessed: since eternal happiness is a gift entirely
gratuitous; and therefore the want of it is not a punishment. The opinion, therefore, of Saint Thomas-----is very
just, that children who die in infancy have neither the pain of sense nor the pain of loss; not the pain of sense, he
says, "because pain of sense corresponds to conversion to creatures; and in Original Sin there is not conversion
to creatures" [as the fault is not our own], "and therefore pain of sense is not due to Original Sin"; because
Original Sin does not imply an act. [De Mal. q. 5, a. 2] Objectors oppose to this the teaching of Saint Augustine,
who in some places shows that his opinion was that children are condemned even to the pain of sense. But in
another place he declares that he was very much confused about this point. These are his words: When I come to
the punishment of infants, I find myself [believe me] in great straits; nor can I at all find anything to say" -
Epistle 166. And in another place he writes, that it may be said that such children receive neither reward nor
punishment: "Nor need we fear that it is impossible there should be a middle sentence between reward and
punishment; since their life was midway between sin and good works" [De Lib. Ar. 1, 3, c. 23] This was directly
affirmed by Saint Gregory nαzιanzen: "Children will be sentenced by the just judge neither to the glory of
Heaven nor to punishment". Saint Gregory of Nyssa was of the same opinion: "The premature death of children
shows that they who have thus ceased to live will not be in pain and unhappiness".


https://lci-goroka.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/saint-alphonsus-liguori-prayer-the-great-means-of-salvation-and-of-perfection.pdf


Note that he does not resolve the issue by stating that the assertion that God wills the salvation of all men only speaks of men capable of moral acts. He obviously includes infants within that will and deals with their situation.

Do you have any theologians in mind who assert your "ordinarily" claim that it only includes men capable of moral acts? I'd like to read their argument.

DR



Offline DecemRationis

  • Supporter
I wanted to add to the quotes of the saints and doctors in this thread the thought of St. Robert Bellarmine on Predestination. St. Robert was in agreement with St. Augustine and St. Thomas that the elect were predestined by God to glory without any consideration of their actions or moral choices, i.e., that God gratuitously elected certain individuals to dwell with Him in eternity, and then gave them the graces necessary to do all He requires, with which graces they freely cooperated.

Unfortunately, I can't provide the same direct quotes from St. Robert's work that I have for St. Augustine and St. Thomas, as his main work on this issue, De gratia et libero arbitrio, is not available in English, and also could not to be found by me online in Latin.

However, Fr. Garrigou-Lagrange discusses St. Robert's view in his great book, Predestination, and I'll quote extensively from his discussion here:


Quote
1) The absolute gratuity of predestination to glory is distinctly the teaching of St. Bellarmine.1 His purpose is to prove, like the Thomists and Augustinians, by means of Scripture, tradition, and theological reasoning, the proposition that no reason can be assigned on our part for divine predestination, which means that predestination to glory is absolutely gratuitous, or previous to any foreseen merits. St. Bellarmine excludes as a reason for predestination to glory, not only all merit in the strict sense, but also all congruous merit, whatsoever use of free will or of grace, and every indispensable condition.2 He proves3 this doctrine from Scripture, which teaches that God has elected certain persons,4 and efficaciously so, that they may infallibly get to heaven.5 Texts in proof of this are: "This is the will of the Father . . . that of all that He hath given Me, I should lose nothing"; 6 "No man shall pluck them out of My hand . . . no one can snatch them out of the hand of My Father"; 7 "Whom He predestined, them He also called . . . and justified . . . and glorified." 8 He also proves that God's choice of the elect was entirely gratuitous and previous to any foreseeing of their merits. Texts in support of this are: "It hath pleased your Father to give you a kingdom"; 9 "You have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, that you should go, and should bring forth fruit"; 10 "There is a remnant saved according to the election of grace. And if by grace, it is not now by works: otherwise grace is no more grace." 11

St. Bellarmine also interprets like St. Thomas and the Thomists the following text of St. Paul: "As He chose us . . . that we should be holy, . . . according to the purpose of His will." 12 "In whom we also are called by lot, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things according to the counsel of His will." 13 Finally he adds 14 that the elect were chosen gratuitously but independently of any foreseeing of their good works, according to the teaching of St. Paul, who says: "For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil, that the purpose of God, according to election might stand . . . there is a remnant saved according to the election of grace." 15 St. Bellarmine shows 16 that these principles of St. Paul apply not only to the election of nations, but also to individuals chosen for eternal life. To those who object that in St. Paul's text17 foreknowledge precedes predestination, for he says: "Whom He foreknew, He also predestinated," St. Bellarmine replies that it is not a question here of the foreknowledge of merits, for which there would be no foundation in St. Paul's epistles, and which would be in contradiction to several of his texts, but the meaning is: "whom He foreknew by the knowledge of approbation, whom He loved, whom He willed, those He predestined. . . . For to know and to foreknow in the Scripture are frequently taken to mean the knowledge of approbation, as is evident from the following text: 'God hath not cast away His people, which He foreknew' " (Rom. 11: 2).18 This is the exegesis of St. Augustine and St. Thomas, and is retained at the present day by Fathers Lagrange, Allo, Zahn, Julicher, and others.

Finally, St. Bellarmine proves that, according to the teaching of St. Augustine, St. Prosper, and St. Fulgentius, no reason can be assigned on our part for predestination to glory. He writes: "No reason can be assigned on our part that God should predestine us to glory. . . . Not only do these holy Fathers (Augustine, Prosper, and Fulgentius) affirm this, but also the more learned of their predecessors, whom the rest subsequently followed, record this opinion as pertaining to the Catholic faith, and they reject the contrary opinion held by the Pelagians. I shall mention some of their works, so that if any perchance are of the opposite opinion, they may realize, from the judgment of these most holy Fathers, how manifestly they err on this point." 19 He mentions in particular two works, one by St. Augustine,20 and the other by St. Prosper.21 In addition to this he remarks,22 as St. Augustine does, that the Fathers who lived previous to the rise of the Pelagian heresy touched but incidentally upon this question of predestination. He quotes, however, St. John Chrysostom who, on the words: "For who distinguisheth thee?" comments as follows: "Therefore thou hast received what thou hast, neither this only or that, but whatever thou hast. For these are not thy merits, but God's gifts." 23 Finally, he points out that the fathers previous to the time of St. Augustine, especially the Greek Fathers, often took predestination as meaning the will to give glory after this life, and that they scarcely spoke of it except by way of exhortation, and therefore they had in mind the order of execution, in which merits precede glorification; whereas in the order of intention the case is the reverse. God, in the order of intention, wills the end before the means, glory before grace and merits; but in the order of execution He wills glory as the reward of merits. God wills to give glory gratuitously in the order of intention; but in the order of execution He does not will to give it gratuitously, and this is contrary to what the Protestants say. In this Bellarmine speaks exactly as the Thomists do, and like them he remarks that after the rise of the Pelagian heresy it was necessary to consider predestination no longer merely in the order of execution, but also in that of intention, so that everything in the affair of salvation may be attributed to God, as the Fathers previous to the time of Bellarmine had said when commenting on St. Paul's words: "For who distinguisheth thee?"

Thus St. Robert Bellarmine saw in the absolute gratuity of predestination the very teaching of Scripture and its great interpreters. This accounts for the fact of his admitting St. Augustine's definition of predestination, which states that it is "the foreknowledge and preparation of those gifts of God whereby they who are liberated are most certainly liberated." 24 In support of this definition, in which the foreknowledge refers not to merits but to the divine gifts, Bellarmine appeals to the scriptural text: "No man shall pluck them out of My hand." 25


Garrigou-Lagrange, Rev. Fr. Reginald. Predestination: The Meaning of Predestination in Scripture and the Church (pp. 153-157). (Function). Kindle Edition.